Author Topic: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind  (Read 156 times)

NEMO 93

NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« on: October 28, 2018, 06:35:30 pm »
Wait, someine is actually applying all drugs effect the brain the same way and for that reason it's different than how meditation effects the brain? I'm sure all the hundreds of drugs out there, none of them work on similar characters with meditation. This argument is prime example of meditation being as damaging to one's connection to reality as much as drugs are.

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Re: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2018, 06:51:25 pm »
Bump

"The Dragon became as a many-headed Serpent,
It's fiery tongues bearing forth speech
Into all the kingoms of the Earth."


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Etu Malku

Re: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2018, 07:17:59 pm »
Wait, someine is actually applying all drugs effect the brain the same way and for that reason it's different than how meditation effects the brain? I'm sure all the hundreds of drugs out there, none of them work on similar characters with meditation. This argument is prime example of meditation being as damaging to one's connection to reality as much as drugs are.
Meditation can affect someone neurologically just like certain drugs can, however, there is little if any detrimental effects from meditating. I'd have to ask you what your understanding of 'reality' is, as well?
IAMTHATIAMNOT

Dragonchild

Re: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2018, 06:29:24 pm »
Actually, lots of people have reported things like Hallucinations, paranoia, back pain from meditation. Doctors don't know what causes it. According to some it's caused by premature kundalini awakening. According to some Christians, it's caused by demons, because everything is demons.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 06:31:47 pm by Dragonchild »

Kapalika

Re: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2018, 07:56:55 pm »
It's worth noting, as per "drug talk can go to far" in the other topic, and just a suggestion for the administration, but the line IMO should be drawn basically at discussing legal drugs.

That requires some clarification. Salvia for example is legal in some USA states but not others, and some countries may various drugs be legal where users live. So maybe a "only discuss entheogenic use of drugs in which it is/was legal in the location that it occurred and/or where you live or that it might hypothetically occur. Even talking about past use is usually fine, which is why sites like https://www.erowid.org/ have been around so long but what I'm suggesting takes us a few steps back from something like that.

Also, restricting it to entheogenic use also gives us another layer since (at least in the United States) there are some exceptions to restricted drugs on the basis of being an important part of a religious practice. All in all this puts us a number of paces safely behind what's legal to discuss.

Another option would be to limit it to what is legal in the jurisdiction of where the server is hosted, as well, but that might overkill. More or less free speech protects us so long as no one is encouraging a crime. That's another distinction, simply discussing effects is totally legal, where as encouraging might be more of a gray area.

Maybe that's too complicated of an explanation, but in practice it's pretty easy more so if the Terms of Service outline that the site is not responsible for what users post, which is easier too since it's been stated that we own our content posted here, not the site (a lot of sites try to claim rights to material posted on their forums).

In any case just a few different suggestions if we need to draw a more concrete line on the topic.

Actually, lots of people have reported things like Hallucinations, paranoia, back pain from meditation. Doctors don't know what causes it. According to some it's caused by premature kundalini awakening. According to some Christians, it's caused by demons, because everything is demons.

Well, as said before in the other topic, a lot of drugs mimic or do the same thing as natural chemicals in our brains.
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Etu Malku

Re: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2018, 08:35:48 pm »
It's not illegal to discuss any type of drug. We're all adults here, I don't see the harm in discussing this as long as it remains linked to the topic.
IAMTHATIAMNOT

Kapalika

Re: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2018, 09:24:29 pm »
Technically encouraging someone to commit certain types of crimes is illegal in some jurisdictions. In some jurisdictions certain use of drugs is still a criminal offense, so encouraging the use of certain drugs in certain jurisdictions is illegal, however due to the international nature of the internet, it's hard to navigate that and enforcement is spotty at best but in reality almost non-existent. In the end, what matters the most is what the hosting company will tolerate and in some cases the appearance of illegal discussion is enough for some hosts. Others won't care unless they get a court order. On another note the old "we condone but don't encourage" is the usual language when one wants to say they got no problem with it but are not actively promoting it.
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Mindmaster

Re: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2018, 11:46:55 pm »
Technically encouraging someone to commit certain types of crimes is illegal in some jurisdictions. In some jurisdictions certain use of drugs is still a criminal offense, so encouraging the use of certain drugs in certain jurisdictions is illegal, however due to the international nature of the internet, it's hard to navigate that and enforcement is spotty at best but in reality almost non-existent. In the end, what matters the most is what the hosting company will tolerate and in some cases the appearance of illegal discussion is enough for some hosts. Others won't care unless they get a court order. On another note the old "we condone but don't encourage" is the usual language when one wants to say they got no problem with it but are not actively promoting it.

Depends on a lot of particulars really, in most states weed = a parking ticket. Not really the same level as many other substances. The worst that will generally happen is you will get a fine and supervision, aka don't get caught again for X amount of time. But, you'd get similar for a moving violation in a vehicle. So, I guess it's sort of in between? Anyway...

It's not illegal anywhere to talk about drugs, and if you share your experiences with them just realize this is the Internet and you don't know who is reading. With that being said, Hamilton's Pharmacopoeia is a great show. :D

Anyway, we're on topic here for the forum if the angle is discussing their ritual / spiritual uses and this is similar to what academia talks about and I see no reason to panic. Much of that information is historical, and it's not an inducement to start taking them. Much of the information is garbage, but there are a few shreds of truth in it and it's worth elucidating the finer points.

As for the puritanism of condemning people whom decide they need assistance to achieve some ritual goal, this is the left-hand path, curb it -- no one cares what your opinion of their lives is. There is no cheating, only doing and not doing and there is irony that is immediately apparent when some proclaimed left-hand pather attempts to impose their morality on another. These are personal decisions that involve risks, but any risk you can live with is worth taking if it is profitable. If not, you're not going to do it again anyway, so do you need to be reprimanded by the life action police? In that comparison, I don't mean it in the way to exclude someone from the left-hand path, but rather as a "flag on that play" and a hint that one maybe should reflect on their actions in this regard.

 
 

Mindmaster

Re: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2018, 12:01:35 am »
Wait, someine is actually applying all drugs effect the brain the same way and for that reason it's different than how meditation effects the brain? I'm sure all the hundreds of drugs out there, none of them work on similar characters with meditation. This argument is prime example of meditation being as damaging to one's connection to reality as much as drugs are.

What is the intrinsic value of being connected to the reality? I guess that's my argument in this regard. People make a big deal about something that seemingly has little utility. Do we spend most of our time relishing in it, or in our little fantasy lands that peak our interests far more? Reality is over-rated, if you ask me, very few people are aware or selfless enough to not be preoccupied with their own plight 24/7/365 to the grave.

So, on that basis, reality is just something someone tries to confine you in that is like a prison. When you go too far away from the consensus you're crazy, immoral, vile, evil, or whatever. I guess this is my hint that even thinking in this manner, for us, should be rather troubling.

Regarding drugs and mediation though, I don't see them related at all. Certainly, you can hallucinate during the meditation or whatever (it happens to me) but it's obvious that's what it is. As soon as you decide to snap out of it, it's like someone shut off the video game console -- no biggie. :D

Though certain drugs are conductive to relaxing, and relaxing helps meditation and spiritual experiences in general. Anything that helps you chill will increase the productivity of ritual or meditative work, at least if you aren't taking so much of it that it takes over -- so to speak. This is why all the old grimoires have things like hot baths, light eating, avoiding socialization, etc.. The point is simply to achieve a stress-less state. Once you know that, then you can come up with all sorts of ways to increase your efficiency. :D

idgo

Re: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2018, 02:49:43 am »
What is the intrinsic value of being connected to the reality?

Well said.

To attempt a sincere answer to that rhetorical question: "Objective Reality" is one of the few frequently-traveled realms of the subjective mind where no one individual gets to choose all the rules. We can examine it and speculate about the rules it appears to follow; we can pick at those rules and seek places we misunderstood the stimuli from which we formed them... but we do not appear to be able to fundamentally choose new foundation rules for it. Instead we have to leverage the existing rules when we want it to adhere to our chosen sets of patterns.

There are many, many realms of the subjective that lack such a constraint. Some of them are very close to that which we call the objective, and can even be mistaken for being part of it. But they are not the same -- changes to those realms do not affect the objective in the same way as changes "directly" to it.

So, the subjective value of retaining some connection to the Objective -- defined as the realm where one doesn't get to choose the foundational rules oneself -- is that the Objective is the easiest source of most of the stimuli which most human brains deeply desire. Those stimuli include experiences as simple as physical comfort and satiety, and as complex as social acceptance. While it's not impossible to create those experiences in other subjective realms, most people find that creating the experience costs more energy than having it "restores".

So I'd answer that the value of connectedness to "Reality" is that it furnishes cheap, easy fuel for continued thought and experience with an efficiency unrivaled by any other realm.

Olive

Re: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2018, 10:44:29 pm »
I just wanted to leave a short thought here since it’s very relevant to the topic.

Meditation and Drugs are different, even if the perceived effects are the same. The first is a metaphysical process that can produce chemical and neurological effects. The latter is a chemical and neurological process that has a metaphysical effect. This is like the difference between being launched from a catapult, and flying like Superman.

I’m also not aware of any drug that really does the same thing as spiritual practice and provides all of the associated benefits.

I feel that if anything the practice has strengthened my connection to reality. But even if it did disconnect me from the world - speaking as a Gnostic: Bah - who needs it? :D

    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Kapalika

Re: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2018, 11:53:06 pm »
I'm not so certain we can say that meditation is a metaphysical event though, but I can see where you are coming from if you separate the mind entirely from the body (a position I disagree with but that's for another topic).
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Olive

Re: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2018, 12:31:09 am »
Metaphysical in the sense that it does not originate in the physical world or in sensory experience.

Saying it does would be like saying a person laughs because certain chemicals are released in their brain. No - he laughs because he heard a funny joke. Certain chemicals are released but that was not the cause of the laughter.

It’s not a perfect analogy because the case of Meditation is even more explicit. It does not require any external stimuli and can be done at any time through the application of the Will. Surely there is a difference between this internal, conscious process and those which occur involuntarily as the body metabolizes certain compounds?

I’m not a dualist but I don’t think one has to be for this distinction to have meaning.
    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Dragonchild

Re: NEMO 93 on meditation and the brain/mind
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2018, 05:09:10 am »
Actually, lots of people have reported things like Hallucinations, paranoia, back pain from meditation. Doctors don't know what causes it. According to some it's caused by premature kundalini awakening. According to some Christians, it's caused by demons, because everything is demons.

Well, as said before in the other topic, a lot of drugs mimic or do the same thing as natural chemicals in our brains.

I was responding to the claim that meditation is never detrimental. For some people it causes many of the same problems overuse of drugs might. It's not the norm, but it's something I thought should be noted when comparing the two.