Author Topic: From indoctrination to the path to freedom  (Read 388 times)

morph8hprom

From indoctrination to the path to freedom
« on: October 03, 2018, 04:10:53 pm »
I have a friend who has been raised as a JW his entire life.  I was completely ignorant to their actual beliefs until just recently when we had a long discussion about it.  At one point I had asked him how it felt to follow his religion yet also entertain certain things that it forbids, and he replied that he understood the consequences and fully accepted them.  At the time it made no sense to me, because I didn't know what those consequences actually were.  In our recent discussion I was actually talking quite a bit about some things I read in the Symbolism of the Serpent thread on this forum, and I asked him if he believed that the Christian interpretation was a scare tactic, to which he replied 'No, but I do believe hell is a scare tactic'.  This is when I found out that JW do not believe in hell.  It brought more light to what he had said before, and he confirmed that he believes if he does not follow his religion to the tee, when he dies his soul will simply disappear, and those were the consequences that he had accepted. 

I went on to talk about the Left Hand Path and various parts of Luciferian philosophy, specifically the remaking of the self into a god through various means.  He seemed incredibly interested, but kept telling me that everything he had ever been taught was practically screaming at him in his head the entire time.   He's a very open minded person and I think the discussion went pretty well all things considered.

Is it likely that someone can overcome such indoctrination and seek true knowledge?  Most people seem blissfully ignorant and content in their bubble even if they are aware that there's a whole storm of liberation raging outside of it.

EDIT:
Changed the topic title to something a bit more fitting since the general idea of the thread is a bit more open ended than just one particular set of beliefs.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 05:35:45 pm by morph8hprom »

idgo

Re: Jehovas Witness
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2018, 05:17:52 pm »
Someone starting at an extreme of indoctrination has farther to travel to reach a point distant from it, but that doesn't make it the journey impossible.

Each set of teachings puts a different priority on the relative merits of un-teaching old beliefs vs teaching new ones. Someone overcoming major brainwashing may experience better success with systems that spend most of their effort on un-programming at first.

I managed to make it out of childhood with relatively little dogma, so my personal experiences may be irrelevant, but I've found Discordian and NLP literature great for the gentle "you get to choose how you model the world" lessons. I find that teachings which don't demand they be accepted, yet add new information that allows one to inspect one's brainwashing by oneself, can have an easier time getting through to an intelligent person with an uncomfortably visceral reaction against any teachings that contradict their own.

On my first read of LaVey's work, I was particularly impressed by the comprehensiveness with which he focuses almost violently slapping the reader out of the RHP paradigm vs adding anything new. So he might be an alright stepping stone to vigorously shake out the brainwashing before moving on to more moderate and balanced things? Then again, by being more blatant, he might be easy for the "immune system" of entrenched dogma to entirely disregard.

Either way, I'll be following this thread with interest to learn how others who've clawed their way out of deep childhood dogma have managed it.

Edited to add: Another thing is that in Chaos paradigms, deep-set beliefs and convictions are actually quite a powerful tool. There are some self-metaprogramming tasks where having an Absolute Belief, or at least the hole where one used to sit, makes things a whole lot easier. I personally found it a lot more difficult to form new Absolute Beliefs at the "because I said so" level after gaining confidence in the self-metaprogramming space -- new beliefs that I create for myself don't have the "this is True" innocence to them, but instead a sheet of "I chose this" between themselves and my mind. And you can mine those "this is True" beliefs to transmute them into motivation to action, whatever action you choose, past a certain point in reflecting on your own mind -- the "I chose this" beliefs have a certain reversibility to them, an awareness that one could as easily choose to cease to hold them. It's like the "this is True" beliefs are trees grown straight in the soil of your psyche, with roots that grow deeper the longer you hold them... whereas chosen beliefs have commonalities to bonsai, movable and constrained to however large a pot.  Basically, prior indoctrination can serve as a spring-board and fuel to accelerate certain types of later work.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 06:05:00 pm by idgo »

Xepera maSet

  • O.S. Co-Founder
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1800
  • Total likes: 1936
  • Eternally Grateful to Our Forum Members; HAIL YOU!
    • View Profile
    • My Book on Setianism
Re: From indoctrination to the path to freedom
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2018, 10:03:51 pm »
Most people don't want to overcome such indoctrination, which is the problem in itself. Many are happy to be slaves to RHP ideologies, whether that's religious or political. I was lucky as I was raised in a religious Jewish family, but they didn't care when I wanted to study other stuff. All they ask was I engage in the traditions like Passover Seder, and I've continued to do so mostly. When I was an atheist my Bubbe (a Hebrew word for Grandma) told me that god was fine with my atheism because he gave me a questioning and rational mind. They've always been accepting and they all have copies of my book haha.

"My step is great, that I may traverse the sky."
- The Pyramid Texts


morph8hprom

Re: From indoctrination to the path to freedom
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2018, 10:43:23 pm »
Personally I came from a heavily Christian upbringing.  As well as I can remember, we started out as Church of Christ, moved a few churches, and eventually wound up at a Southern Baptist church.  At one point we attended a church which had a special youth group known as the Royal Rangers.  Not sure if anyone is familiar with them, but they have an interesting logo.



Each point represents something different, and we were expected to memorize all of it.  There was other odd stuff they had us do but I honestly can't remember most of it.  We didn't last very long at this church as it was more geared towards middle-upper class folks in the area, which we most definitely were not.

By the time I was in junior high I was WAY over all of it, so it didn't take much to push me into the idea of anything that might oppose the status quo.  After going through atheism, 'satanism'(I had little to no understanding of actual Satanism, I was just keen on pushing against the current), and agnosticism, I finally found my way to the ideas of chaos magick and luciferianism.  This was some years ago, and I never really put any of it to practice.  I just recently decided that it's time to actually try and forge my way down this path.  I guess it was just so simple for me to leave everything in Christianity behind because I never really FELT anything. It was all just monotonous follow the motions type garbage to me.  My mom was never really opposed to me finding my own way, but I also never really provided any details of 'my own way' other than it not being Christianity.  My father always fully supported me no matter what, and would gladly listen to me ramble on excitedly.  We spent a lot of time tripping together and had more than a couple odd experiences.  He introduced me to a lot of amazing concepts, and psytrance which eventually got me looking into Hinduism and Shamanism fairly heavily for a while.  All in all it's actually been pretty easy for me to break away from my initial programming, and I've always tried to be open to the possibility of new ideas replacing my old concepts rather than clinging to them for some sort of nostalgia or general bullheaded-ness.

Xepera maSet

  • O.S. Co-Founder
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1800
  • Total likes: 1936
  • Eternally Grateful to Our Forum Members; HAIL YOU!
    • View Profile
    • My Book on Setianism
Re: From indoctrination to the path to freedom
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2018, 11:41:32 pm »
See it was easy for me to break away too. In a Christian culture Judaism can almost be LHP. We eat meat literally any day, we can be gluttonous and lazy (and Passover encourages such behavior), I've literally been mocking Christ since before memory because my family was happy to explain why Christianity made no sense. Plus we weren't super dogmatic in any way. I had my Bar Mitzvah and Confirmation and I don't regret either necessarily, whereas if I had been baptized it would now disgust and repulse me.

"My step is great, that I may traverse the sky."
- The Pyramid Texts


pi_rameses

Re: From indoctrination to the path to freedom
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2018, 01:55:23 am »
Those last statements after whereas..is me.
"Some say Kos, others Kosm.
As you did for the vacuous Rom,
grant us eyes.
Grant us eyes."

-Micolash, Host of the Nightmare

Xepera maSet

  • O.S. Co-Founder
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1800
  • Total likes: 1936
  • Eternally Grateful to Our Forum Members; HAIL YOU!
    • View Profile
    • My Book on Setianism
Re: From indoctrination to the path to freedom
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2018, 01:56:24 am »
Sorry pi :(

"My step is great, that I may traverse the sky."
- The Pyramid Texts


pi_rameses

Re: From indoctrination to the path to freedom
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2018, 02:02:23 am »
No worries. I just have to remove my name from the Book of the Elect when I was confirmed. And also deregister from the parish membership, which I have been been absent from. It should be implicit but going through it explicitly helps.
"Some say Kos, others Kosm.
As you did for the vacuous Rom,
grant us eyes.
Grant us eyes."

-Micolash, Host of the Nightmare

Mindmaster

Re: From indoctrination to the path to freedom
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2018, 12:42:36 pm »
No worries. I just have to remove my name from the Book of the Elect when I was confirmed. And also deregister from the parish membership, which I have been been absent from. It should be implicit but going through it explicitly helps.

I reposted this from RF: http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?topic=899.msg7642#msg7642


Hopefully, someone finds it useful. :D

I never went through the formal trouble of removing myself from Catholic association, not because I was planning to come back but because their thoughts on the issue were meaningless. :D All belief starts and ends with one's own thoughts and feelings.

A meaningful "Rite of Blasphemy" is far more injurious to your former association and uses the dogma you were subjected to as a weapon against itself.

morph8hprom

Re: From indoctrination to the path to freedom
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2018, 12:47:07 am »
I was baptised but I guess it never held any real significance to me so I never saw it as an issue.

Jim

Re: From indoctrination to the path to freedom
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2018, 10:17:58 pm »
Freedom doesn't exist, you're always a slave to something - often yourself. Don't kid yourself, everyone is dogmatic - even if they claim they're against dogma.

Mindmaster

Re: From indoctrination to the path to freedom
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2018, 02:51:07 am »
Freedom doesn't exist, you're always a slave to something - often yourself. Don't kid yourself, everyone is dogmatic - even if they claim they're against dogma.

Just reductio ad absurdum here... "You can't be free because then your belief in that freedom would bind you." Or, some such nonsense along those lines.

If you live by a set of rules or values that you've constructed yourself that's not dogma; especially if those tenets are defensible by reason or modifiable in the future. It seems you should research the meaning of the word before you use it. :D

Xepera maSet

  • O.S. Co-Founder
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1800
  • Total likes: 1936
  • Eternally Grateful to Our Forum Members; HAIL YOU!
    • View Profile
    • My Book on Setianism
Re: From indoctrination to the path to freedom
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2018, 03:20:51 am »
If you live by a set of rules or values that you've constructed yourself that's not dogma; especially if those tenets are defensible by reason or modifiable in the future. It seems you should research the meaning of the word before you use it. :D

Perfectly stated.

"My step is great, that I may traverse the sky."
- The Pyramid Texts