Author Topic: Kundalini  (Read 287 times)

Liu

Kundalini
« on: September 24, 2018, 07:35:39 pm »
Recently there was a very short exchange of comments between me and @RussellHart since he mentioned his experiences with Kundalini. I suggested to move this into a new thread.

I'm not 100% sure whether what I experience is Kundalini, but at least it has quite a few similarities, so I assume it's related at least. Perhaps someone here wants to tell me what they think and/or share their own experiences.

Kundalini is normally described as a tingling or electricity along the spine, starting in the area of the genitals and moving from there upwards until it gets to a barrier that relates to a blocked chakra/psychological or spiritual problem.

Well, for me it almost never starts down there. I mainly feel it in the lower part of the neck area, and it spreads from there downwards (until the sacrum, sometimes also into the buttocks and towards the perineum) and, too a lesser degree, upwards (sometimes until the top of the skull).
After a while it may change directions, i.e. moving from the sacrum upwards, and I often also feel it in my shoulders close to my neck.

A while ago I heard a demonolator describe that when he starts getting possessed by a demon, he first feels it as a tingling in his neck. Perhaps there is some relationship between his and my experiences.

Kundalini is often referred to as sexual energy. That isn't really confirmed by my experiences.
Few months ago I took notes every day for a couple weeks whether I engaged in sexual activities and/or whether I felt any kind of strong spinal tingling. 2 consecutive of those weeks I spent chaste (in the sense of not touching my genitals except for hygienic purposes). I didn't notice any difference in frequency or intensity of kundalini-related sensations, but perhaps it only makes a difference when abstaining for longer time.

Regarding how it feels, I can quite understand why people consider it something sexual, though. At its most intense, it basically feels like an orgasm, but it can last quite a bit longer. Also, there is no real difference between different intensities of it except for the intensity itself (unlike with sexual feelings where there is a clear difference between what arousal feels like and what cumming feels like), and there is no refractory period or similar.
@RussellHart described it as getting raped in the spine or something like that, and I have thought of it like that myself before - one doesn't have much control over it and it's overwhelming, the main differences to it being a kind of rape would be that it's very pleasurable and that it's likely caused by one's own psyche.

I don't exactly remember when I first felt it. I remember first getting similar tinglings in those or related areas from listening to music I really enjoyed. I think that happened to me first about 10 years ago, in my late teens. But I don't know when I first felt it without music. It only happens to me commonly since I would guess 3 or 4 years or so, and is getting more frequent overall, even if sometimes nearly or completely disappearing for weeks.

Things that tend to trigger or intensify it for me are on the one hand rhythmic/spontaneous movements of the spine (swaying, shaking, twitching, even headbanging), on the other reading/hearing/seeing something to which I feel a spiritual connection.
Also focusing on it intensifies it, especially the parts near my shoulders, and I can suppress it if necessary (e.g. in order to avoid spinally cumming while in the presence of others :mrgreen:).

It is something different from religious devotion (which, while also feeling awesome, is much more related to emotions and less to sensations), but the two strengthen each other.

There is actually a course on Kundalini Yoga this winter semester at the sports center here. It seems to be on basic and mantra meditation, breathing exercises and some hatha yoga. While spiritual openness is recommended, it's no requirement. Perhaps that course is helpful in my situation, I'll certainly try and check it out.

Olive

Re: Kundalini
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2018, 09:54:14 pm »
This is actually a really good topic when it comes to internal alchemy and spiritual cultivation. I don't have a lot of time rn, but I'll talk a little bit about some of my experiences here.

I started noticing a similar sort of feeling in my spine when I was going through puberty. It would only come in bursts, but it was always quite powerful - causing me to involuntarily twitch or shake for a moment. A little later in life, when I was experimenting with Cannabis, I realized that I could call forth this feeling at will, and cause the sensations to last slightly longer. Still it would cause twitches and shakes in my body, but I never stopped myself from doing it. The longer sensations had allowed me to realize just how pleasurable an experience this was. I still struggled to activate these types of effects intentionally while sober, however.

Fast forward another few years and now I've legitimately begun my spiritual journey. Lots of meditation and contemplation. Do-nothing, Vipassanā, and Mindfulness training. This had significantly increased my sensitivity and concentration. At this point, I had become aware of Kundalini as it is commonly described - as leading sexual energy up the spine and eventually out of the body according to some. At the time, this seemed like a fantastical explanation of some of the meditative practices I was already familiar with, and not something of special interest.

Leaping forward one more time, to the present day. For a good while I have been studying and practicing techniques developed by the serious Daoists and the Qiqong society, some of which had been kept secret in chinese temples until very recently. I can tell you with certainty that these practices are some of the deepest I've ever come across. The Buddhists also have a lot of good techniques when it comes to developing the spirit and taming the mind, but the Daoists have a much more comprehensive system for nourishing and developing different systems of being as well. I've come across something here that is quite similar in theory to the way we describe Kundalini but with a lot more clarity. This is speculation but it's possible that this practice could be what Kundalini yoga originated from, or possibly a more pure version that has been maintained from an earlier practice which both it and Kundalini sprang from. Alternatively, it is a practice which developed independently but acknowledged many of the same functions within the body and how to manipulate them at a profound level. That is sort of beyond the point, but it is interesting. All three possibilities are compelling in their own way. No matter what the history may be, it has become apparent to me that the majority of teachers of the Kundalini system have not actually mastered the depths of this technique.

Currently I believe that the energetic feeling in the spine which we have been commenting on the sensation of Qi (bio-electrical energy) being transmitted through the vertebral cavity. Rising upwards, this transmission can be used to nourish the mind; moving downwards, it is likely a discharge of excess current. This is not the true practice of Kundalini Yoga  (imo)

As I said, I want to keep this short for now and this is a really dense subject, but I'll provide a short synopsis of what the Daoist practice consists of. A preliminary practice is learning how to refine one's Jing (essence), and convert it into Qi. This Jing is related to sexual energy, but it is also related to what is called "original essence" which generated your body and was provided by your mother and father. I think that this sexual energy has more to do with regulating and manipulating hormone levels within the body, and less to do with conserving semen/eggs like some lay people have speculated. However, the texts I've perused have made claims to the effect that sexual orgasm does expend a large amount of your energy and Jing/essence, and excessive sexual expenditure even consumes your Original essence and can cause aging effects. So chastity is preferred for the serious practitioner, though not necessarily total disuse of the sexual organs. Some of these sources recommend practices that include regular sexual stimulation without orgasm to 'awaken' jing and stimulate hormone production without expending energy. There is also a lot of tantric practices that have to do with this that you may want to look into.


The first step of the real practice consists in locating the spiritual center and the Qi center within the body. It is helpful at this point if you can understand that you don't have only one brain that determine your conscious activity and physical state, but actually three. Namely, the Brain, the Heart, and the Gut - with the Brain and the Gut being the primary controllers. The spiritual center is in the head, where the Shen (spirit) and the Yi (Wisdom Mind) primarily reside. The Qi center is in the gut, which is located at the base of the spine. The second step involves raising "water qi" from the gut, and lowering "fire qi" from the heart, and uniting the two in your center (around the solar plexus and diaphragm area), which is called Huang Ting. This process is called "the intercourse of Dragon and Tiger". Thirdly, one lowers the Shen from the head to the center, and uses it to nourish this balanced qi until a new Shen (spirit) is developed there. This is the conception of the spiritual embryo, or divine child. One must continue to nourish this new shen with the spirit maintaining the balance of qi until it is well developed, which is called "mutual dependence of Mother and Son." Once this spiritual embryo is fully developed, it can be led up the spinal column and fully established in the brain (spiritual center), and the third eye/Heaven Eye is reopened. This is the process that is said to lead directly to enlightenment or whatever you want to call it.


It takes years to master this practice (just for reference, the preliminary step I mentioned is called "100 days of laying the foundation") - and I'm not claiming to have done so or to be enlightened or anything of the kind. But I have been working at it for quite a while and have made a lot of progress. I've got to go for now; hopefully this is enough information to pore over. I plan on sharing more about this process and my results with it in the future.
    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Little Beast

Re: Kundalini
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2018, 12:54:00 am »
Reminds me of the use of Izanagi and Izunami within esoteric budo. Kami (nihongo word for deities) literally meaning "fire-water", and the aforementioned couple representing centrifugal and centripetal use of ki. 

Liu

Re: Kundalini
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2018, 08:02:12 pm »
Thanks for that long reply, @Olive!
Qi? Didn't think of that actually. None of the recounts on qi I heard so far described something like this, but then I'm not knowledgeable about it much at all.

My only experience with Qi Gong so far was the use of it as warmup exercises in a Tai Chi course I attended a few years back. Also gonna attend one this winter, but I don't know whether they incorporate Qi Gong there, and the actual Qi Gong courses seem very focused on the health aspects and not anything even remotely esoteric/spiritual.

Any further reading you can recommend me on this?

As I said, I want to keep this short for now and this is a really dense subject, but I'll provide a short synopsis of what the Daoist practice consists of. A preliminary practice is learning how to refine one's Jing (essence), and convert it into Qi. This Jing is related to sexual energy, but it is also related to what is called "original essence" which generated your body and was provided by your mother and father. I think that this sexual energy has more to do with regulating and manipulating hormone levels within the body, and less to do with conserving semen/eggs like some lay people have speculated. However, the texts I've perused have made claims to the effect that sexual orgasm does expend a large amount of your energy and Jing/essence, and excessive sexual expenditure even consumes your Original essence and can cause aging effects. So chastity is preferred for the serious practitioner, though not necessarily total disuse of the sexual organs. Some of these sources recommend practices that include regular sexual stimulation without orgasm to 'awaken' jing and stimulate hormone production without expending energy. There is also a lot of tantric practices that have to do with this that you may want to look into.
Hm, as I mentioned in the thread on edging recently, I twice (last autumn and last winter) went for a few weeks without orgasming and only edging. Didn't take notes to see whether it had any influence on the tingling, but not any that I noticed at least. But then, went into that without any spiritual ambitions or instructions, so I wouldn't expect to have approached it properly.

Quote
It takes years to master this practice (just for reference, the preliminary step I mentioned is called "100 days of laying the foundation") - and I'm not claiming to have done so or to be enlightened or anything of the kind. But I have been working at it for quite a while and have made a lot of progress. I've got to go for now; hopefully this is enough information to pore over. I plan on sharing more about this process and my results with it in the future.
Sure do! Sounds very interesting.

Reminds me of the use of Izanagi and Izunami within esoteric budo. Kami (nihongo word for deities) literally meaning "fire-water", and the aforementioned couple representing centrifugal and centripetal use of ki.
I know a tad of Japanese, and I never noticed that. But, are you sure? "fire" is one of the 30 meanings of ka that Wadoku.de lists (and actually one I heard before as it's in "kayoubi", "Tuesday", i.e. day of the fire planet/element), but in the 9 meanings of "mi" listed there is nothing that would refer to water. Sure, "mizu" is "water", but from my perspective as a layperson, I would think that if one wanted to make compound "fire" + "water" using "ka" one would use rather "sui" ("water"), or at least that the compound of "ka" and "mizu" would become "kamizu". But then, it might be a really old compound (and the fact that it's written with a single character and not two would point to that), so I can't exclude the possibility. Just seems hard to prove to me.

But not familiar with esoteric budo at all (my knowledge of Japanese religion begins and ends with what's in the video game Okami and a couple animes).
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 08:59:54 pm by Liu »

Little Beast

Re: Kundalini
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2018, 09:56:57 am »
I know a tad of Japanese, and I never noticed that....not familiar with esoteric budo at all (my knowledge of Japanese religion begins and ends with what's in the video game Okami and a couple animes).

Sorry for the late reply. I'm not an internet person. I had to laugh a little at your reply, eg; "animes". Anime is the plural of anime. I'll give you this example from Budo by Morihei Ueshiba (1938, John Stevens translation, P33)...

Regarding technique, from ancient times it has been said that movements must fly like lightning and attacks must strike like thunder. Those principles can be seen with the eyes, but you must train diligently, seeking the divine, and master those principles that cannot be seen with human eyes - the functions of water and fire throughout the universe.

Translators note:

In Morihei's system, the cosmos is activated and sustained through the interaction of water (mizu) and fire (ka). Water is matter; fire is spirit. In combination they form iki, (life, breath) and kami (the divine.)

Stevens sensei is a monk, a professor, and official translator of the Ueshiba iemoto. Being a yondan (fourth degree) in that same tradition, all I'd personally add is his translations are somewhat watered down rather than exaggerated.




Liu

Re: Kundalini
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2018, 06:15:13 pm »
Sorry for the late reply. I'm not an internet person. I had to laugh a little at your reply, eg; "animes". Anime is the plural of anime.
Oh, didn't know - English isn't my native language, and in my native language, "animes" is the normally used plural. It seems to me like it's also sometimes used in English, though. (And no, just because in Japanese it's "anime" it doesn't mean that we need to retain that in other languages.)
Also trying to use the internet less, but it's not that easy ^^

Quote
Regarding technique, from ancient times it has been said that movements must fly like lightning and attacks must strike like thunder. Those principles can be seen with the eyes, but you must train diligently, seeking the divine, and master those principles that cannot be seen with human eyes - the functions of water and fire throughout the universe.

Translators note:

In Morihei's system, the cosmos is activated and sustained through the interaction of water (mizu) and fire (ka). Water is matter; fire is spirit. In combination they form iki, (life, breath) and kami (the divine.)

Stevens sensei is a monk, a professor, and official translator of the Ueshiba iemoto. Being a yondan (fourth degree) in that same tradition, all I'd personally add is his translations are somewhat watered down rather than exaggerated.
I see - basically about getting body and mind to work together as one, that would at least be my guess. Depends a bit on what they mean by ka/spirit.

I wouldn't understand that translation to mean that "kami" derives from "ka" and "mizu", though, and if, then merely as folk etymology.

Olive

Re: Kundalini
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2018, 04:19:34 pm »
Thanks for that long reply, @Olive!
Qi? Didn't think of that actually. None of the recounts on qi I heard so far described something like this, but then I'm not knowledgeable about it much at all.

My only experience with Qi Gong so far was the use of it as warmup exercises in a Tai Chi course I attended a few years back. Also gonna attend one this winter, but I don't know whether they incorporate Qi Gong there, and the actual Qi Gong courses seem very focused on the health aspects and not anything even remotely esoteric/spiritual.

Any further reading you can recommend me on this?


No problem! And sure. The book I was referencing to write that last post was Qiqong Meditation - Embryonic Breathing by Dr. Jwing-Ming Yang. He is a Taichi master who has written many books on the subject and available material; many of which with the YMAA publication center. It's something of a textbook, but to me it is really a treasure. So many of the ancient writings he translates and provides here are difficult to find elsewhere, and his level of experience with the practice lends a subtlety to his translation and teaching that is sorely missed elsewhere.

I'm not surprised you learned about Qigong in your Tai Chi classes, as the practice is very useful for martial arts practitioners. However, Dr. Yang writes that some of the techniques for really increasing strength and power in your moves can be quite damaging/exhausting for your body over a long period of time. For this reason a lot of the modern practice is focused on using the principles of Qiqong to increase health so that a longer life can be pursued rather than expending so much energy. When he speaks about the different factions of the Qiqong society, he mentions them in four groups:

1. Those who study Qiqong from a scholarly perspective.
2. Those who use Qiqong to further martial pursuits.
3. Those who use Qiqong to increase health and longevity.
4. Those who use Qiqong to pursue religious goals and spiritual attainment.

I'll quickly note that of course these four are not mutually exclusive, they can be practiced in tandem. But the amount of material that is available is so large that usually people will have to specialize to become very advanced in any of them. The fourth group is what the practice of Embryonic breathing is concerned with. Before the modern era, this was pretty much exclusive to the monks in the temples who had access to the writings and had enough dedication to practice them for several years. Some more primitive examples of this type of practice can be found in two texts that have been attributed in legend to have been written by Bodhidarma / Dharuma. The first is the Yjin Jing - or Muscle and Tendon Changing Classic which became the foundation of Shaolin martial practice and many other eastern martial arts. The other is called the Xisui Jing or Brain and Marrow Washing Classic which had to do with spiritual development and longevity practices. Interestingly, the second is still considered to be lost, but it was apparently known to the masters in secret for long and may still be.

I mentioned the preliminary step of converting Jing (essence) into Qi, (which can then be used to nourish Shen (Spirit), which can be used to direct Qi to replenish Jing, completing the cycle. This is one the cycles they speak of in the different types of circulation meditation.) I thought I would list the other stages here, as they are quite interesting just on their own. I would recommend you look into some of these publications to learn more about these topics. Dr. Yang also appears to have some videos online teaching about martial arts and such but I have not perused them. I know a good bit about this subject and how it is done in practice but it is somewhat laborious to communicate it in the format of this forum. It may be something I speak about further in a future video but until then I'll defer to the expertise of others.


1. Refine the Essence and Convert it into Qi (Lian Jin Hua Qi)
     - One Hundred Days of Laying the Foundation
2. Purify Qi and Convert it into Shen [spirit] (Lian Qi Hua Shen)
     - Ten Months of Pregnancy
3. Refine Shen and Return it to Nothingness (Lian Shen Huan Xu)
     - Three Years of Nursing
4. Crush the Nothingness (Fen Sui Xu Kong)
     - Nine Years of Facing the Wall    [note the reference to Bodhidharma]

Just out of curiosity I did the math on these time frames and on average this would come out to 4,666.9 days of practice.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 04:25:41 pm by Olive »
    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Liu

Re: Kundalini
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2018, 09:42:20 pm »
No problem! And sure. The book I was referencing to write that last post was Qiqong Meditation - Embryonic Breathing by Dr. Jwing-Ming Yang. He is a Taichi master who has written many books on the subject and available material; many of which with the YMAA publication center. It's something of a textbook, but to me it is really a treasure. So many of the ancient writings he translates and provides here are difficult to find elsewhere, and his level of experience with the practice lends a subtlety to his translation and teaching that is sorely missed elsewhere.
Thanks, I'll check it out!

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Re: Kundalini
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2018, 07:14:42 pm »
I actually blame the Kundalini energy for my spine problems. I think the sudden rising in an unsuspecting individual can cause serious harm, as it seems to in my case. My Kundalini experiences started at the same time as my major depression and low spinal issues (both which I still deal with and will until death).

"The Dragon became as a many-headed Serpent,
It's fiery tongues bearing forth speech
Into all the kingoms of the Earth."


My book, "Behold: the Prince of Darkness!": https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1726037460/ref=dbs_a_w_dp_1726037460

Little Beast

Re: Kundalini
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 11:08:19 am »
I see - basically about getting body and mind to work together as one, that would at least be my guess. Depends a bit on what they mean by ka/spirit.

I wouldn't understand that translation to mean that "kami" derives from "ka" and "mizu", though, and if, then merely as folk etymology.

IMO, negative, it's not "mind and body". In both my practice of both Satanism and Budo both body and mind (hyle/psyche or kotai/jutai) are completely separate from spirit (pneuma or kitai). Both systems in the esoteric sense regard the body and mind as dualistic, and their individual functions only recognised once the spirit "awakens".

The serpentine spinal column represents this in the material aspect, both its right and left hand side must be used to coordinate physically, which is then "reversed" in the brain. Eastern cultures tend to recognise the "brain" as being not just the alignment of the whole "column", but at which level it is "thinking" (ie; from the top or bottom, since left and right are relative and constantly rotate). This IMO is the recognition of Zoe (Life, Mother of the serpentine Beast) who gave her breath (pneuma/kokyu or prana) to Adam (man*) to make him awake. I see far too any similarities between the Gnostic tradition and the kundalini to even entertain the notion of "western" and "eastern" metaphysics being separate.

They're not. We're from the same place. A remote orb of dirty water spinning around the (spilt) Milky Way.

* EDIT (for clarity): The actual meaning of "man" is not gender specific in English. The Germanic rune man is Ask and Embla (the first trees from which "males and females" were carved) embracing. This also has a comparison in Gnosticism, Eve is a "clone" of the Tree of Knowledge (Zoe), the "psychic man" is its fruit.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 11:31:51 am by Little Beast »

Olive

Re: Kundalini
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2018, 02:00:42 pm »
IMO, negative, it's not "mind and body". In both my practice of both Satanism and Budo both body and mind (hyle/psyche or kotai/jutai) are completely separate from spirit (pneuma or kitai). Both systems in the esoteric sense regard the body and mind as dualistic, and their individual functions only recognised once the spirit "awakens".

Right - for instance in the esoteric Taoist tradition I mentioned (which originally wasn't Qiqong, but some of the practices have come to be associated with that school in the ensuing years), the divisions between Mind and Spirit are drawn as follows: Xin (Heart) - Emotional Mind; Yi (~Established Speaking Heart) - Wisdom Mind/Rational Mind; and Shen - Spirit. I maintain this distinction when I speak from my gnostic paradigm, usually referring to Heart - Soul - Spirit - with 'Soul' being equivalent to 'mind' in most ancient traditions as well. (Except in something like Zen, where capital Mind is more akin to Spirit and I prefer to read it this way to avoid confusing westerners hopelessly.)

All this has excluded discussion of the body, which is described in more or less detail depending on the tradition. I should say that these descriptions do not necessarily imply Dualistic metaphysics, they simply arise from the investigation of Being and all it's aspects. I actually find that many traditions tend towards Idealism rather than Dualism when it comes to metaphysics - though of course there are different schools of thought on these issues.

Quote
The serpentine spinal column represents this in the material aspect, both its right and left hand side must be used to coordinate physically, which is then "reversed" in the brain. Eastern cultures tend to recognise the "brain" as being not just the alignment of the whole "column", but at which level it is "thinking" (ie; from the top or bottom, since left and right are relative and constantly rotate). This IMO is the recognition of Zoe (Life, Mother of the serpentine Beast) who gave her breath (pneuma/kokyu or prana) to Adam (man*) to make him awake. I see far too any similarities between the Gnostic tradition and the kundalini to even entertain the notion of "western" and "eastern" metaphysics being separate.

They're not. We're from the same place. A remote orb of dirty water spinning around the (spilt) Milky Way.

I agree, the similarities are endless and sometimes very informative. You've just about nailed it. We are from the same place. However, is the place described through all times "A remote orb of dirty water spinning around the Milky Way?" Can you cite that in their writings? Of course not. Recognize that when we say something like that it is pure conceptual thought projecting out of us. I'm not saying disbelieve it, just that the 'place' the ancients investigated through all time is the seat of being, the throne of the Yellow Emperor, as it were - and not a lonely planet careening through space. :)

Quote
* EDIT (for clarity): The actual meaning of "man" is not gender specific in English. The Germanic rune man is Ask and Embla (the first trees from which "males and females" were carved) embracing. This also has a comparison in Gnosticism, Eve is a "clone" of the Tree of Knowledge (Zoe), the "psychic man" is its fruit.

I agree, I consider Adam (Man) to have been androgynous at the first, before his being split into two. This idea is actually supported by several men in the rabbinic tradition, as well as certain principles made plain through spiritual practice.

The Gnostic reference you are making here is pretty deep cut, and I appreciate it thoroughly. I would prefer to say Eve was cloned from "The Woman of Spirit," or the Gnostic Lilith, by the Archons attempting and failing to defile her. It is usually only after this event that the Woman of Spirit then takes the form of the tree of knowledge, or alternatively the serpent around it. Although in truth the difference between these two accounts is slight. The Epinoia (or conceptual thought) was sent from on high as an aid to man. Originally it lay within the breast of the complete Adam, but was removed from him along with the spirit by Yaldabaoth, producing the Woman of Spirit (Separation of Man into Man and Woman). He desired to have her and was tricked into copulating with her shadow, or image, thus producing Eve (The Double Creation of Woman).  Both Adam and Eve at this point have been mostly stripped of reason and spirit, but upon the beckoning of the Serpent, Reason is restored. (Producing Psychic Man, by the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Although it varies by source whether the spirit was also restored by this or by another method.) It can be argued that Eve was affected in a positive way by the image in which she was formed - it was her, after all, who first partook of the fruit. :)

Your formulation of this is very concise and is esoterically accurate, I'm just providing a bit more context to those who are maybe not as familiar to the texts, because they would likely have a difficult time following along haha.

Cheers guys.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 03:03:13 pm by Olive »
    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Liu

Re: Kundalini
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2018, 06:22:57 am »
I see - should had guessed that they put the main border rather between spirit and body/mind than between the latter two. With all your "no separation between east and west", that aspect seems like a fairly reliable criterion, at least nowadays, to tell whether something is closer to eastern or western esoteric traditions.

The way that quote was written reminded me of something (I think by Jan Fries) about bringing subconscious and conscious action in harmony with each other, that's why my assumption of it rather referring to the interaction between parts of the body-mind complex.

With the distinction of these parts (plus the definition of spirit) being as convoluted as they are, it's no wonder that some might get lost in translation when trying to compare traditions without being familiar enough with each.

Little Beast

Re: Kundalini
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2018, 11:31:21 am »
All this has excluded discussion of the body, which is described in more or less detail depending on the tradition. I should say that these descriptions do not necessarily imply Dualistic metaphysics, they simply arise from the investigation...

...Can you cite that in their writings? Of course not.

I am in fact very humbled by not just your understanding of my articulation, but the editing of your post to make the varied paradigms more accessable to the board (or forum/community). Therefore, two points to further this (mods might prefer this to be a separate topic).

"Dualism" isn't in a martial tradition a "black vs white" or "good vs evil" position. It is considered an opportunity to test one's own understanding, the end result not being winning but rather a victory in understanding another, thus the self which considers them "an other".

While in fact I was providing a cynical analysis of the planet in a realistic or material sense (it's surface is mostly water, with some mud between it) I can provide direct quotes of the "dirty orb" as relating to a specific perspective which my martial tradition has been based off.

Omoto-kyo (a former Shinto sect, now an independent religion) bases its "dualistic" dynamic off the kami who possessed its founder(s); Konjin, in traditional Shinto an adversarial god of metal and change, the opener of the "demon gate". Omoto is "closed" to westerners (it is generally considered that gaijin cannot understand it) despite being firmly influenced by Swedenborg, Blavatsky etc. The female founder (Nao Deguchi) was possessed by Ushitora-no-Konjin (the kami's masculine side), the co-founder Onisaburo - her adopted nephew - was possessed by Hitsujisaru-no-Konjin (the feminine). Onisaburo translated the apocalyptic sentiment of his daemonic other into a digestable format. The viewpoint (detailed within the 81 volumes of the Reikai Monogatami) of the sun is it is made of water - spiritually. The "outside" appearance of things are their essential opposite - but regardless - the same. Likewise the moon, likewise the earth itself. Misogi (ritual purification) changes this. In a martial aspect, this is represented by go-no-sen, sen-no-sen and sensen-no-sen (body, mind, spirit). A sword is forged to give life (Kusanagi-no-Shinken) not take it. "A Lotus Blooms in the Mire" would be a relevant segway from Shinto->Buddhism->this thread.

The Kusanagi is found "within the serpents tail".
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 11:39:59 am by Little Beast »

Olive

Re: Kundalini
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2018, 10:01:37 pm »
I'm at work currently - so just a short contribution.

I was reading through a rather amazing CIA document released in 2003 that was created as the result of an effort to understand transcendental meditation, hypnosis and many other practices that can produce unexplainable effects. A short passage mentioned Kundalini style practices, so I thought I would share it here for the consideration of the forum. It's not so helpful to an individual as a writing from a practitioner can be imo, but the rationalist perspective will probably speak to some. Plus, the information mentioned here, if accurate, may allow us to greatly increase the effectiveness and speed of the practice, especially for beginners.

Relevant excerpt in pictures.

Full document here: https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00788R001700210016-5.pdf
    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Liu

Re: Kundalini
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2018, 04:43:38 pm »
Hm, while my skeptic senses were tingling while reading this, I nevertheless would like to provide some utterly unscientific anecdote that may or may not confirm what's in that article:
As I mentioned before, for me, Kundalini-like symptoms first appeared while listening to music, and it was especially intense when I did so on my daily commute via train, and moreso when I was sitting on the floor there (common at some times that no seats where left). So, who knows, there might be something to it of vibrations of that kind triggering it.
Until now, I assumed it was more the situation in which I could fully immerse myself into the music that strengthened it like that, but guess I now have a second hypothesis to consider.