Author Topic: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?  (Read 783 times)

Ave Lucifugus

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How do you know you're communicating with an egregore instead of an actual entity, such as The Prince of Darkness? What traits would tell you that you're not talking to an actual metaphysical entity, and not somebody's construct.

NEMO 93

Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2017, 10:34:11 am »
There's no real difference. Temple of Set posits that every entity other than the Prince of Darkness is a thoughtform.

Chaos magic would say they're all thought forms.

Having direct experience with Egregors, I can tell you they function exactly the same as Gods. If you're worried about following another's will, don't. The mass psychic imprint would cause it to behave how a God would do psychic imprint.

I highly recommend studying DKMU's egregors to see how they function. I mean, these are just theories but at a certain point, Gods had to come from somewhere, right? So Egregors are either putting a new face on a force or creating a new God all together.

I would love to create on with some time. I never had trusted people to do it with. I tried at once but it sort of fell part. It was an interesting expiriment to begin with though as you get to know your magical strengths and weaknesses better.

My theory is that with a group of people, you get a strong servitor with some personality.  If servitors are akin to elementals, egregors would range from spirit to godform based on the ammount of belief poured into it. However, belief effects it which you could say it does for stuff we know are Gods historically too.

So my idea is that you create an egregor in private. Keep most of it's personality traits rather than the bare minimum secretive-ish and then introduce it to the public. If it catches on, keep track of how people interpret it and if it effects it's energies. This would have to continue to be a group working as a couple people would have to work with the Created Egregor without knowledge of the updates to see if it effects it. Then have another person or two work with the egregor after being updated because maybe passing your interpretation on effects it.

If you could do this succesfully, you could come to possibly understand how Godforms in general work.

Ave Lucifugus

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Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2017, 03:55:16 pm »
Quote
Temple of Set posits that every entity other than the Prince of Darkness is a thoughtform.

...Which doesn't make a lot of sense, in my opinion. I disagree with them on that notion wholeheartedly.

The thing is, egregores need to be fueled by belief, as you've said. There are gods and demons who've never been worshiped, yet they're quite powerful.

No one, for example, worships King Paimon from the Goetia. No one even knows who he was before the demonization. Yet, everyone who's ever worked with him, has had amazing results.

I don't think that all entities are the same.

Quote
Gods had to come from somewhere, right?

Not necessarily. Some of them could be acausal, just like The Void.

Setamontet

Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2017, 04:03:19 pm »
How do you know you're communicating with an egregore instead of an actual entity, such as The Prince of Darkness? What traits would tell you that you're not talking to an actual metaphysical entity, and not somebody's construct.

An egregore serves you, it does not say such things to you as "Manifest my, the egregores will."  Or "Re-consecrate my Temple in the true name of...."
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 04:06:59 pm by Setamontet »

"O learn the Law, my brothers of the night - the Great Law and the Lesser Law.
The Great Law brings the balance and doth persist without mercy.
The Lesser Law abideth as the key, and the Shining Trapezoid is the door!" - Anton LaVey

Ave Lucifugus

  • Guest
Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2017, 04:05:11 pm »
So if one were to call upon an entity which does not cater to the magician's every whim, it's not an egregore?

Setamontet

Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2017, 04:08:43 pm »
Precisely!

"O learn the Law, my brothers of the night - the Great Law and the Lesser Law.
The Great Law brings the balance and doth persist without mercy.
The Lesser Law abideth as the key, and the Shining Trapezoid is the door!" - Anton LaVey

Ave Lucifugus

  • Guest
Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2017, 04:11:15 pm »
But the entity could do you some favors, under certain circumstances, no? After all, The Prince of Darkness did a tremendous favor to Michael Aquino in writing the book, as well as establishing The Temple of Set. Dare I say it's partially thanks to The Prince of Darkness that LaVey got his fame.

NEMO 93

Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2017, 06:10:41 pm »
From personal experience in expirimenting with both, it my gnosis that what @Setamontet  is reffering to is a servitor, a name of serve as a root word and egregor is more complicated. These are also the chaos magic definitions.

Here is a TON of articles on egregors, sigils, and servitors if anyone wishes to delve more into the topic. 

http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/sseg.php

Also, there exists a method crafted by the DKMU in which you can give a servitor a specific personality that I have used to great success.

NEMO 93

Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2017, 06:40:50 pm »
"An egregore is a kind of group mind which is created when people consciously come together for a common purpose. Whenever people gather together to do something and egregore is formed, but unless an attempt is made to maintain it deliberately it will dissipate rather quickly. However if the people wish to maintain it and know the techniques of how to do so, the egregore will continue to grow in strength and can last for centuries.
An egregore has the characteristic of having an effectiveness greater than the mere sum of its individual members. It continuously interacts with its members, influencing them and being influenced by them. The interaction works positively by stimulating and assisting its members but only as long as they behave and act in line with its original aim. It will stimulate both individually and collectively all those faculties in the group which will permit the realization of the objectives of its original program. If this process is continued a long time the egregore will take on a kind of life of its own, and can become so strong that even if all its members should die, it would continue to exist on the inner dimensions and can be contacted even centuries later by a group of people prepared to live the lives of the original founders, particularly if they are willing to provide the initial input of energy to get it going again.

If the egregore is concerned with spiritual or esoteric activities its influence will be even greater. People who discover the keys can tap in on a powerful egregore representing, for example, a spiritual or esoteric tradition, will, if they follow the line described above by activating and maintaining such an egregore, obtain access to the abilities, knowledge, and drive of all that has been accumulated in that egregore since its beginnings. Agroup ororder which manages to do this can, with a clear conscience, claim to be an authentic order of the tradition represented by that egregore. In my view this is the only yardstick by which a genuine Templar order should be measured."

Ave Lucifugus

  • Guest
Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2017, 07:06:39 pm »
I'll definitely need to do more research on this matter.

crossfire

Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2017, 07:59:51 pm »
"An egregore is a kind of group mind which is created when people consciously come together for a common purpose. Whenever people gather together to do something and egregore is formed, but unless an attempt is made to maintain it deliberately it will dissipate rather quickly. However if the people wish to maintain it and know the techniques of how to do so, the egregore will continue to grow in strength and can last for centuries.
An egregore has the characteristic of having an effectiveness greater than the mere sum of its individual members. It continuously interacts with its members, influencing them and being influenced by them. The interaction works positively by stimulating and assisting its members but only as long as they behave and act in line with its original aim. It will stimulate both individually and collectively all those faculties in the group which will permit the realization of the objectives of its original program. If this process is continued a long time the egregore will take on a kind of life of its own, and can become so strong that even if all its members should die, it would continue to exist on the inner dimensions and can be contacted even centuries later by a group of people prepared to live the lives of the original founders, particularly if they are willing to provide the initial input of energy to get it going again.

If the egregore is concerned with spiritual or esoteric activities its influence will be even greater. People who discover the keys can tap in on a powerful egregore representing, for example, a spiritual or esoteric tradition, will, if they follow the line described above by activating and maintaining such an egregore, obtain access to the abilities, knowledge, and drive of all that has been accumulated in that egregore since its beginnings. Agroup ororder which manages to do this can, with a clear conscience, claim to be an authentic order of the tradition represented by that egregore. In my view this is the only yardstick by which a genuine Templar order should be measured."
I am in total agreement with this.  An egregore can also serve as a sort of "cloud drive," and can network with other egregores connected to the individuals who are part of that egregore.  My Order has its own deliberately created egregore, even though we are not Templars.
"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."
~Carl Jung

NEMO 93

Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2017, 08:15:20 pm »
I would love to collaborate with some people on this forum to create an egregor as a study on how deities/thoughtforms/egregors/etc. might work and function in the astral. I feel like it would be extremely useful knowledge to anyone who seeks self-deification.

W_Adam_Smythe

Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2018, 02:29:25 am »
My own personal feeling is that almost from a Vampiric perspective that the initial feeding is essential (depending on if you want it to take on a life of it's own). Take any God or Devil figure through the centuries and how many human beings have fed them.

While they may have started out as a thought-form, they have become living realities.

IMO, at least, this is the same when someone initially physically dies. At the funeral it is a way for those gathered to feed the spirit. In the following days or weeks, as far as numbers go, there will likely still be a strong feed. After months though that feeding begins to wane as people go on with their own lives. There will still be a few there who continue to feed that spirit who know what they are doing just as the spirit being fed knows what is happening and knows how to feed off of other living beings. However, once the feeding of the spirit ceases and no one is there to feed it any longer and further if the spirit doesn't know how to continue to independently feed or for whatever reason decides not to then this is when the vital life force that has kept it alive will begin to fade. Some may decide to go the way of the second death. Others may continue to lurk until someone feeds them once again and come on a bit more powerful than one would expect.

Now, I know there is a difference between what I am talking about than a straight out thought-form. But it is the feeding and the importance of it that is the common ground. Not to get too geeky on this one, but, for example one could say that Master Yoda is a thought-form. How long he will continue or how limited he is depends entirely on how well much cheese that Mickey Mouse feeds him. ;) :D

Mindmaster

Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2018, 05:26:59 pm »
How do you know you're communicating with an egregore instead of an actual entity, such as The Prince of Darkness? What traits would tell you that you're not talking to an actual metaphysical entity, and not somebody's construct.

The comparison you make here is just going to lead to a bunch of mental gymnastics, but I'll attempt to provide a succinct comparison.

An Egregore:

1) Created by us, either purposefully or by accident.
2) Generally narrow in purpose, doesn't have it's own motivations
3) Exists in a lower "space" in the hierarchy in the collective mind -- not self-aware, etc.
4) Can become the next case over time, if enough energy is given to do so.
5) Typically functions as an extended or shared servant. It has no will, so it can be ordered to act on one's behalf.
6) Has extremely limited power. Cannot overcome effects of anything that exists in the next category. It also can die if not maintained as it is in a temporal state.

A God/Demon/Spirit/Being:

1) May have started as an egregore, but may not have. Many are older than humans some may have been egregores created by the first being.
2) Has it's own will, purposes, and interests. It is not a servant.
3) Is not able to be controlled or ordered it has become and active force in the universe.
4) If it helps you, it's because it wants to. It's far more powerful than you.
5) Massive unimaginable power, immortal, and eternal.
6) The differences between God, Demon/Spirit, and Being are simply respective power levels.

If you are sensitive psychically to the differences, there is simply no confusion -- it's like seeing a light bulb in comparison to the sun. However, if you are in the intellectual head space, probably not.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 10:53:49 pm by Mindmaster »

idgo

Re: How do you know you're dealing with an egregore or a thought-form?
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2018, 05:33:28 am »
So, to read this question as "how do you know you're dealing with (an egregore or thoughtform)?" rather than the more common "how do you know whether you're dealing with an egregore or with a thoughtform" take...

I find that you can tell they're hiding behind something when you spot a thing with powers it wouldn't be expected to have. Thoughtforms created unintentionally by groups tend to have gaps in their personification, compared to other entities. They're kind of like the genie in the lamp in every fairytale, in the sense that if you asked the genie something totally off-topic like whether he's an only child or what's his favorite color, the answer comes back as this untranslatable un-asking of the question because it's just not part of his world in a very fundamental way. (another way to put it: their determinism tends to show.) There's some traits for which entities unintentionally constructed through group imagination kind of don't exist, because every imaginer projects something different and all those conflicting ideas make pure noise that represents no trait at all. So, the more people put undirected or unintentional thought into creating an entity for a given task, the vaguer the bits of that entity far from the task will be. In other words, such "emergent entities" have Consensus (and thus existence in the shared world) greatly for attributes near their purpose and dwindlingly for attributes more distant from it.

I've been noticing suspiciously egregore-shaped systems of power around a lot of small-group social rituals, popular songs, and even some pieces of poetry. Well, those are the ones I participate in... I've observed without participation the egregores of sports teams' "spirit" as well. My litmus test for whether some shared pattern may have a little "something extra" attached is: Describe the thing. Pick a handful of other things matching that description that are ordinary and not special. (sports "spirit" is a bad example here because one of its tasks is to draw more people to participate, so teams without some measure of it are an exception rather than a rule) Does the thing you're testing have power further from all of its peers than they are from each other? For instance, maybe "It's a song from the late 1700s. It elicits a sensation of homesickness and inspires the listener to take political action." Compared against 4-5 other songs from its time, it has outstandingly different staying power and impact on modern society. So the song in question is likely a hallmark of some system of power built onto or around or by it.

The fun part about the egregore explanation is that it's entirely consistent with an "objective, scientific, socio/psychological" model in which the song only seems special because you have seen it in certain contexts or learned certain information about it. The explanations run causality differently -- "people made an egregore on the song" vs "the song made patterns that we anthropomorphize as an egregore" -- but both accurately predict that using the song in a working to get its effects will work better than using a song with less extra power associated.
If everything's imaginary, it's all the more important to speak clearly and precisely when communicating meaning is the goal. But English flows better with synonyms, so I may interchange:
External = Objective = Consensus = Outside World
Internal = Subjective = Personal Reality