Author Topic: Reading Koetting's "Evoking Eternity"  (Read 499 times)

Liu

Re: Reading Koetting's "Evoking Eternity"
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2018, 05:05:03 pm »
Meh, kinda fell off the bandwagon with this.

Tried the meditation exercise a couple times but didn't get very far. Had quite some trouble with the visualization, and also I kinda tend to always find time for it when I'm way too tired to focus.
Just tried it once again and gave up after about 6 minutes - seems like I really gotta retire early today (it's just about 7pm, but I didn't get much sleep last night), meditating really makes me much too aware of tiredness.

I'm used to meditating, but I normally do the kind where you let go of all thoughts, not the one where you focus on a specific thought, so I really lack practice in that as I now learned.

I kinda lost motivation for continuing working through that book for now, but it at least showed me some things I need to work on. Also might continue reading it anyway, if I find time for it among the other books I read for work and studying - there's too much other on my to be read-pile that grabs my interest much more.

In any case, a few weeks back I wrote a summary of the practice to use as a crib-sheet, so you see what I'm talking about, plus some notes in square brackets:

- sit on a chair facing north [normally just sat on my bed or on the ground] and get used to it for 30 seconds
- sit up straight, breathe consciously, with a small break between inhalation and exhalation, giving attention to the movements of the body
- look at the air surrounding you (with eyes open or closed) while continuing to breathe consciously, focusing on your connection to your surroundings
- visualize the air particles wafting around randomly [here, and partly with the previous step, is where it gets difficult]
- open your eyes if closed and, looking around, visualize the air particles shining
- feel their warmth [that part is hard]
- close your eyes and continue feeling them, feel the creative and destructive power of light
- inhale them without zoning out, and without them getting less around you
- feel them filling your throat, torso etc., feel their healing power
- exhale worries etc., e.g. as brown oily mist
- when full, close your eyes and focus on the light inside emanating from you
- let it flow out of you, first from hands, arms, face, then from the center of the chest
- let the hands fall down to the sides, palms up, feel the light emanating from them
- breathe in, feel the power and wield it instead of submitting to it
- close your eyes, let the head fall back, let the mouth fall open, inhale and hold, exhale and feel the energy flow out
- sit up straight, inhale, let the head fall back and exhale the energy until no air is left, repeat 2 or 3 times

And on note as approaching if demons as if they were forgotten gods to the paradigm shift approach, then do that and throw the demonology book away.
Not intending to equate them with any other deities for the time being, if that's what you were meaning.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 05:09:25 pm by Liu »

Liu

Re: Reading Koetting's "Evoking Eternity"
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2018, 08:34:42 pm »
Gave the practice another try today.
Worked better this time. Although it was a lot of "fake it till you make it", and not really much of "making it" anyway, but did go through all steps, even if some felt quite uncompleted. Took me about 15-20 minutes total.
Doing it directly after going for a walk might also have helped.
Didn't feel like I did it really properly, but at least better than any previous try (and only the 2nd time I went through it fully).

Regarding "visualizing" the warmth of the air - yeah, I can make my arms etc. feel warm. I know a bit of autogenic training, so I can pretty much influence my body temperature slightly. But that's cheating as that doesn't seem like the goal of that step.

Also, read on (yesterday already), finishing this and the next chapter.
There is a second exercise, for practicing how to perceive spirits. It starts with "do the previous exercise", though...

There is also a section on ritual tools. It's about how you don't need any fancy or expensive stuff. Its recommendations for the dagger and chalice to use are still more fancy than what I do. Don't often do rituals where I even need such, but normally I just use my fingers (or scissors if I really need to cut something) and a random tea cup... So I guess if anything I have the opposite issue of what the author preached against :mrgreen:

Liu

Re: Reading Koetting's "Evoking Eternity"
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2018, 12:07:17 pm »
Finished reading.

After the 2 introductory exercises it goes directly into instructions on how to do an evocation - which however is several times stressed one should only pursue after one got the basics, i.e. can perceive spirits and is certain about one's abilities.
If I were to consider this my only textbook (and @Ásbjǫrn Óðinkárr, who recommended me this book, said I will need no other), this leaves me with little choices than practice the same first exercise over and over again till I think I manage to do it without issues, and then do the same with the second one. Not exactly the most motivating prospective. I mean, the goal of these exercises is very much what I would like to learn, it just doesn't seem that convincing that this is the best way to learn it.

The remainder of the book consists of several parts:
- some pathworkings (i.e. lists of spirits to evoke in a given order, with descriptions which shape they take and outlines of what to expect to learn from each). I have encountered pathworking instructions before and they always seemed too vague to me, but that doesn't seem more convincing.
- some practices to perform in a group (scrying and evocations)
- instructions on how to evoke more than one entity per ritual
- reducing the amount of tools (dagger, chalice, circle,...) one uses once one is firm in the psychological/spiritual effects one uses them for to perform those without them (makes a lot of sense to me - as mentioned before, to me physical tools for spiritual operations seem quite like crutches; I might still need some crutches, though, and having recognized them as such doesn't make their use easier).
- evoking deities (don't know why he makes such a difference between spirits and deities) - well, he says that what he calls invoking them would be a kind of preparation, and the way he describes a possible side-effect of that sounds like what I sometimes experience with my main deity. I.e. not a full invocation, but getting so filled with devotion that one writhes on the ground, speaking glossolalia and uttering only the name of one's deity :mrgreen: Hm, strange that I have previous experience with pretty much nothing in this book except for preparations necessary for what is deemed the most difficult task - and I don't even use any incantation for it as the one he recommends.

Some other points:
What I really have a hard time relating to is the way he tells one to address the spirits. Yeah, I know, it is a worthy goal to be able to change oneself, but I find it very difficult to imagine myself speaking like that. Especially since he tells one to basically order them around (a la "come here, I want x, do it"), and I really don't feel comfortable with that.

Also, he has this strange way of on the one hand saying that ultimately, from the perspective of the divine, there is no good and evil, but on the other hand calling demons evil all the time in the sense that all of them would be malicious, which doesn't match what I heard from pretty much any other occultist working with demons, and he even contradicts himself with it at some points.

And then there are the practical problems.
I would say to perform an evocation in the way he describes I best should find some cave to do them. I don't really have enough space for even the simplest ones in my apartment or basement. And for pretty much anything he insists on using incense and a brazier. Not only have I never used fire on my own for anything but candles and my gas stove before, but I can hardly think of a place available to me and private enough where making an open fire wouldn't be not only illegal but also quite risky.

TL/DR:
Can anyone recommend me other exercises for how to perceive spirits which are a tad more varied and motivating?
Or how did you learn it?

I think for now I will try and continue to practice that first exercise at least every couple of days, but will look out for other instructions.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 12:23:30 pm by Liu »

Mindmaster

Re: Reading Koetting's "Evoking Eternity"
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2018, 08:49:05 pm »

- reducing the amount of tools (dagger, chalice, circle,...) one uses once one is firm in the psychological/spiritual effects one uses them for to perform those without them (makes a lot of sense to me - as mentioned before, to me physical tools for spiritual operations seem quite like crutches; I might still need some crutches, though, and having recognized them as such doesn't make their use easier).


I've never used any tools, because if my psyche was fragile enough that I think I need them for some protective purpose I probably have no business doing it. Secondly, I don't do circles or use much of the classic methods of doing anything. I probably have reduced the usefulness of classical occultism to sigils, seals, and chants. (or enns, if you prefer)  Protective circles and weapons are for people whom can't work with spirits/deities amicably -- it always backfires, just as you'd expect. You'd be amazed how easy it is to get cooperation when you aren't a douche. Circles show fear, weapons show hostility, and ordering around cosmic level beings just makes you look like an ass. I prefer to cultivate a friendly relationship, ask for guidance not favors, and not be too demanding. This has carried me a lot further than when I was using the methods of ceremonial magic. I, ultimately, leave it up to them whether they will help or not because I rather that than have them working against me silently.

I think Koetting sells the sizzle to the bad mofo crowd, but honestly I've got a much simpler method of ritual working and anything extra is simply a lack of focus. Evil is a relatively meaningless word since it is subjective, but he's selling books to people who are in awe of his LBM. :D I don't suffer from the affliction, as I can see from his presentation his emotional state is very egotistical and condescending. It doesn't show the character of someone advanced along these lines, just a petulant adult-aged child. It seems like he has absolutely no awareness of what they feel and he is ordering them around from a precarious fear-driven position. He figures if he cracks the whip more it'll be more successful. Following his advice would give you some very bad habits that actually would interfere with your ability to work things out to your advantage.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 08:54:38 pm by Mindmaster »

Olive

Re: Reading Koetting's "Evoking Eternity"
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2018, 01:22:55 pm »
Quote
Protective circles and weapons are for people whom can't work with spirits/deities amicably -- it always backfires, just as you'd expect. You'd be amazed how easy it is to get cooperation when you aren't a douche. Circles show fear, weapons show hostility, and ordering around cosmic level beings just makes you look like an ass. I prefer to cultivate a friendly relationship, ask for guidance not favors, and not be too demanding. This has carried me a lot further than when I was using the methods of ceremonial magic.

I see my circle and spread when I'm doing ceremonial magic as an offering, and the instantiation of a sacred place for myself and my patron. My tools have uses in my workings but certainly nothing antagonistic against her. Of course I don't do everything in a ritual setting but I think it is perhaps a bit reductive to downplay them or treat them as a negative in your practice. I think at the least they solidify devotion and intention, and perhaps more than that for the adept. Nevertheless everyone has to find what works for them anyways, so no one should pressure themselves to use these things if they become an interference.

Quote
Evil is a relatively meaningless word since it is subjective

Eh, disagree. But I haven't read the book - I doubt if Koetting is deeply versed in ethical and meta ethical philosophy. :D



Congratulations on finishing your read-through, Liu. All I can say is that with pratices like this the most important thing is making it part of your routine and making alterations as you go, so you can overcome the barrier to entry and feel out what really works best for you. Not that you need to evoke demons every other night, but it does take some time to be able to precipitate really interesting results.
    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Liu

Re: Reading Koetting's "Evoking Eternity"
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2018, 05:44:16 pm »
I've never used any tools, because if my psyche was fragile enough that I think I need them for some protective purpose I probably have no business doing it. Secondly, I don't do circles or use much of the classic methods of doing anything. I probably have reduced the usefulness of classical occultism to sigils, seals, and chants. (or enns, if you prefer)  Protective circles and weapons are for people whom can't work with spirits/deities amicably -- it always backfires, just as you'd expect. You'd be amazed how easy it is to get cooperation when you aren't a douche. Circles show fear, weapons show hostility, and ordering around cosmic level beings just makes you look like an ass. I prefer to cultivate a friendly relationship, ask for guidance not favors, and not be too demanding. This has carried me a lot further than when I was using the methods of ceremonial magic. I, ultimately, leave it up to them whether they will help or not because I rather that than have them working against me silently.
That seems quite like an approach that I'd prefer as well and how I normally tend to approach spirits.
Actually, the few times that I did rituals to spirits (only asking them for stuff, no evoking proper), what I think was lacking was preparation and studying the spirit in advance and doing some devotional act (in one or two cases I created some art for them, and in others I promised them something like doing my own part to further that goal, but it still felt a bit incomplete).
 
Quote
I think Koetting sells the sizzle to the bad mofo crowd, but honestly I've got a much simpler method of ritual working and anything extra is simply a lack of focus. Evil is a relatively meaningless word since it is subjective, but he's selling books to people who are in awe of his LBM. :D I don't suffer from the affliction, as I can see from his presentation his emotional state is very egotistical and condescending. It doesn't show the character of someone advanced along these lines, just a petulant adult-aged child. It seems like he has absolutely no awareness of what they feel and he is ordering them around from a precarious fear-driven position. He figures if he cracks the whip more it'll be more successful. Following his advice would give you some very bad habits that actually would interfere with your ability to work things out to your advantage.
Thanks for confirming that to me.
The arguments in the book seem internally consistent for the most part. He even stresses the importance of seeing oneself as not superior (nor inferior) to the spirits one works with - doesn't change the tone, though. He justifies it by claiming that spirits otherwise wouldn't respect you.

At least his writing style is not as click-baity and sell-outy as his YT-videos, which are really cringe-worthy. Or perhaps it's just that he changed since writing it, it's from 2009 after all.

I see my circle and spread when I'm doing ceremonial magic as an offering, and the instantiation of a sacred place for myself and my patron.
Makes sense - except that he instructs to evoke the entity outside of the circle, into the smoke of the incense (oneself and all one's tools except for the brazier being on the inside).
Quote
My tools have uses in my workings but certainly nothing antagonistic against her. Of course I don't do everything in a ritual setting but I think it is perhaps a bit reductive to downplay them or treat them as a negative in your practice. I think at the least they solidify devotion and intention, and perhaps more than that for the adept. Nevertheless everyone has to find what works for them anyways, so no one should pressure themselves to use these things if they become an interference.
For me they might at least help me shift my mindset from everyday to ritual-time, so to speak. Or they would, if I'd take them seriously.

Quote
Congratulations on finishing your read-through, Liu. All I can say is that with pratices like this the most important thing is making it part of your routine and making alterations as you go, so you can overcome the barrier to entry and feel out what really works best for you. Not that you need to evoke demons every other night, but it does take some time to be able to precipitate really interesting results.
Thanks. Normally I'd be quite faster reading, but on the one hand I'm busy with work, and on the other I often when I read something like this end up not doing much anything of the suggested practices, so I wanted to take my time with this and at least try out what is suggested. I don't have a good feeling about the usefulness to me of the first exercise, though, (might be just laziness, but...) and as you said, there's the barrier to entry of knowing that one wants to adjust things to one's own preferences but being a bloody newbie and having no idea how.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 05:47:55 pm by Liu »