Author Topic: On the question of if CoS is LHP:  (Read 695 times)

Xepera maSet

  • O.S. Co-Founder
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1661
  • Total likes: 1819
  • Eternally Grateful to Our Forum Members; HAIL YOU!
    • View Profile
    • My Book on Setianism
On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« on: June 19, 2018, 10:17:55 pm »
I just read this in one of Mr. Gilmore's articles and found it rather finalizing. He states:

"Satanists view themselves as animals who are part of Nature (7th Satanic Statement: “Satan represents man as just another animal,...” ), and see any concept positing something existing outside of nature as being a spiritual delusion."

I don't think I've seen many quotes so blatantly un-LHP and pro-RHP. First, anyone who disagrees is assumed to be delusional or "bad." Second, LaVeyan Satanism goes out of it's way to DEBASE things like human consciousness and will, which it entirely RHP. Not to mention we see him upholding the statements like you'd expect in Catholic Church. With Gilmore himself saying this, and all the love to my CoS friends in the world, I have to say this kind of conclusively settles the debate.

"The Dragon became as a many-headed Serpent,
It's fiery tongues bearing forth speech
Into all the kingoms of the Earth."


My book, "Behold: the Prince of Darkness!": https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1726037460/ref=dbs_a_w_dp_1726037460

Kapalika

Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2018, 03:48:16 am »
I didn't know there was any debate. I don't think we can equate dogma with not being LHP and there is a strong case to argue that tradition has historically been part of the LHP both ancient and modern.


From two strict points of view, LHP is either individualism which treads taboos without tradition, or on the other coin that but embracing a dark heterodoxy, so all of that but accepting tradition as part of the LHP.


I don't see why the CoS wouldn't be in the latter.


As for the former, eventually someone doing something long enough makes it a tradition. It's kind of inevitable. So I default to the latter.


The question of the nature of consciousness, and of the "stuffs" of the Universe, material, mental, whatever, is a question of belief and so isn't pertinent to whether someone is LHP or not.


Left Hand Path beliefs have always been all over the map and that's still true of Satanism, Setian ect evcen today. I don't think there is anything meaningful in qualifying if someone is RHP or LHP based on belief.


If we all believed the same thing then the LHP wouldn't be very individualistic.
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Liu

Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2018, 03:37:09 pm »
You beat me to it, @Kapalika. Full agreement.

Except for one point which I would like to elaborate on a bit more:

Second, LaVeyan Satanism goes out of it's way to DEBASE things like human consciousness and will, which it entirely RHP. Not to mention we see him upholding the statements like you'd expect in Catholic Church. With Gilmore himself saying this, and all the love to my CoS friends in the world, I have to say this kind of conclusively settles the debate.
Saying consciousness and will is a part of nature is not debasing it, and if they thereby say that everything that exists is a part of nature, then it logically follows that it's a delusion to believe in something that is not part of nature since it then per definition doesn't exist.
So, from that statement by Gilmore itself I wouldn't draw any conclusions on it being RHPy.

But from how he states it, namely as a dogma, and from how dogmatically the CoS behaves in general, that could be considered RHP by some definitions in that it seems to stifle individuality.

king_gimpy

Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2018, 03:22:07 pm »
I'm new to the subject of LHP vs RHP and still learning myself, so I can't say on that regard. However I can say that while The CoS and the Satanic Bible got me started on Satanism and thus TSB will always be an important read to me, I quickly outgrew them. In fact, I can't stand the CoS.

I dislike Gilmore and I think he's a coward, as he hides and shuts his door if they ever get any negative attention. They haven't done anything noteworth in ages and their followers seem to be more of a masturbatory cult of ego at this point, who over inflate their modern influence.

I'm not the biggest fan of atheistic Satanism, but my best friend is one, and if I had to choose The Satanic Temple have easily usurped the CoS when it comes to being out there with Satanism and fighting Christian ideals, even if they can be kinda "edgelords," about it.

Whenever I encounter LaVeyan's they're just stroking their own ego by claiming they are the only TRUE SATANISTS™ since LaVey invented Satanism and defined it. Oh and if you believe in an actual Satan you're insane.

They also are pretty dogmatic about adoration of Anton, something I think he'd despise.

Mindmaster

Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2018, 09:57:24 pm »
I just read this in one of Mr. Gilmore's articles and found it rather finalizing. He states:

"Satanists view themselves as animals who are part of Nature (7th Satanic Statement: “Satan represents man as just another animal,...” ), and see any concept positing something existing outside of nature as being a spiritual delusion."

I don't think I've seen many quotes so blatantly un-LHP and pro-RHP. First, anyone who disagrees is assumed to be delusional or "bad." Second, LaVeyan Satanism goes out of it's way to DEBASE things like human consciousness and will, which it entirely RHP. Not to mention we see him upholding the statements like you'd expect in Catholic Church. With Gilmore himself saying this, and all the love to my CoS friends in the world, I have to say this kind of conclusively settles the debate.


I've never particularly seen the CoS as a LHP group because it pretty much is RHP in practice. If you challenge any of the basic assertions in TSB you probably aren't gonna make any friends over there. :D

I've always considered TSB an important book, but I consider it the rookie level of LHP philosophy. As you go along you find things to argue against and have experiences which contradict the material. If something is true in an absolute sense, it cannot be contradicted. So, that's where I am basically these days...

As I moved toward theism I found even less and less value to it. I didn't cultivate my theism as a desire, but it evolved naturally through my experience. I started as a regular old atheistic Satanist back in the day, but it didn't have answers for the things happening around me. Anytime something doesn't line up with the model it's the model that's bad... I've never actively sought those experiences, mind you, they just happened spontaneously. So, by TSB standards I am no Satanist even though Satan is the most important guy to me. :)

W_Adam_Smythe

Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2018, 08:33:53 pm »
I'm new to the subject of LHP vs RHP and still learning myself, so I can't say on that regard. However I can say that while The CoS and the Satanic Bible got me started on Satanism and thus TSB will always be an important read to me, I quickly outgrew them. In fact, I can't stand the CoS.

I dislike Gilmore and I think he's a coward, as he hides and shuts his door if they ever get any negative attention. They haven't done anything noteworth in ages and their followers seem to be more of a masturbatory cult of ego at this point, who over inflate their modern influence.

I'm not the biggest fan of atheistic Satanism, but my best friend is one, and if I had to choose The Satanic Temple have easily usurped the CoS when it comes to being out there with Satanism and fighting Christian ideals, even if they can be kinda "edgelords," about it.

Whenever I encounter LaVeyan's they're just stroking their own ego by claiming they are the only TRUE SATANISTS™ since LaVey invented Satanism and defined it. Oh and if you believe in an actual Satan you're insane.

They also are pretty dogmatic about adoration of Anton, something I think he'd despise.


Well said all the way around.

BTW, I think you are correct about Anton. From everything I understand he hated to be whitewashed.

Xepera maSet

  • O.S. Co-Founder
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1661
  • Total likes: 1819
  • Eternally Grateful to Our Forum Members; HAIL YOU!
    • View Profile
    • My Book on Setianism
Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2018, 10:27:57 pm »
Hmmmm...


"The Dragon became as a many-headed Serpent,
It's fiery tongues bearing forth speech
Into all the kingoms of the Earth."


My book, "Behold: the Prince of Darkness!": https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1726037460/ref=dbs_a_w_dp_1726037460

Frater V.I.M.

Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2018, 10:51:41 pm »
I'd say that the modern-day full-blown materialist/atheist CoS is closer to the RHP than the earlier Church, simply because it openly (and loudly) embraces eventual oblivion of the individual Self. However, it advocates strengthening the Ego and being Selfish while still alive, so, it's largely still LHP in everyday practice.
"Let it be known that every man who delves into the arts of darkness must give the Devil and His children the due their years of infamy deserve. Satan’s Name will not be denied! Let no man shun or mock His Name who plays His winning game or despair, depletion, and destruction await!”
- Anton LaVey, 1970

Xepera maSet

  • O.S. Co-Founder
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1661
  • Total likes: 1819
  • Eternally Grateful to Our Forum Members; HAIL YOU!
    • View Profile
    • My Book on Setianism
Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2018, 01:29:43 am »
I'm on some FB LHP/satanism group and you're LITERALLY not allowed to question LaVeyan Satanism. Say ANYTHING to question it and the mods instantly lock the thread lol. So left hand path... /s so fucking pathetic.

"The Dragon became as a many-headed Serpent,
It's fiery tongues bearing forth speech
Into all the kingoms of the Earth."


My book, "Behold: the Prince of Darkness!": https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1726037460/ref=dbs_a_w_dp_1726037460

Xepera maSet

  • O.S. Co-Founder
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1661
  • Total likes: 1819
  • Eternally Grateful to Our Forum Members; HAIL YOU!
    • View Profile
    • My Book on Setianism
Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2018, 01:59:51 am »
Church of Satan Satanist: "everything LaVey and Gilmore say is the absolute unquestionable truth and all else is lies! Anyone who disagrees with us is a delusional moron! CoS dogma is infallible even when contradicted by objective sources!"

Also CoS Satanist: We're Left Hand Path!


"The Dragon became as a many-headed Serpent,
It's fiery tongues bearing forth speech
Into all the kingoms of the Earth."


My book, "Behold: the Prince of Darkness!": https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1726037460/ref=dbs_a_w_dp_1726037460

Mindmaster

Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2018, 04:50:31 am »
I'm on some FB LHP/satanism group and you're LITERALLY not allowed to question LaVeyan Satanism. Say ANYTHING to question it and the mods instantly lock the thread lol. So left hand path... /s so fucking pathetic.

I'm not mad, I find them amusing. Satan knows who his own are and they're not the people worshiping at LaVey's, Gilmore's, or <insert new grand poobah here>'s feet. If we look at Satan in even a mythological sense his dispute with Jehovah is over free will. In whatever manner you consider him to exist, you obviously know this much. By any reckoning, it's simply absurd to accept a human authority (or even divine) over oneself. That's just about the most un-Satanic thing you can do. Satan has no need for pets, he wants us to be free... Free enough that he was willing to sacrifice his own standing for that belief if the stories were true.

What you're dealing with though is a bunch of emo SJW kids with a mad addiction to no true Scotsman comparisons. :D When you call them out all they have two possibilities -- evoke a diatribe of hate because you've offended their ideals or ban you out of fear because you make sense. In the end all it really boils down to is that Satan hasn't communicated with them, they're posing, and they refuse to admit they're faking it. If they were really embracing Satan and Satanism they'd have no need for these childish antics because one doesn't have to pretend to be something when one is.

There are only two authorities that matter to a real Satanist -- their own, and Satan's. The Satanic Sins and the Statements are another man's word but they do not reflect what you personally need to live by. A real Satanist knows this and modifies his ideals accordingly, but a faker must approach by dogma and become enslaved to it out of fear of being outed as a fake or worse receiving retaliation from their peers. If you're the real deal your peers aren't even in your consideration -- you are what you are because you are free. That's the basic essence of real Satanism that is so lost on the masses, but I guess the good part is we get to make jokes at their expense. :D

Don't worry about the online monopoly of thought either -- again, real Satanism starts and ends in ones own heart and mind. There is nothing to win except your freedom and once you have it you begin to realize that there are many who are happy being slaves. (In fact, the majority.) Don't let that trouble you -- without that structure they'd be lunatics... They are getting what they need (enslavement) and you are getting what you need. (freedom) We could argue that nothing is as bad as mental and spiritual slavery masked as liberation, but they truly believe the lie. Until they figure it out you're just dealing with one long epic backfire effect and galvanising their delusions.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 04:58:05 am by Mindmaster »

Xepera maSet

  • O.S. Co-Founder
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1661
  • Total likes: 1819
  • Eternally Grateful to Our Forum Members; HAIL YOU!
    • View Profile
    • My Book on Setianism
Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2018, 05:24:30 am »
Freaking love you MindMaster, you inspire me greatly! Hail MindMaster!

"The Dragon became as a many-headed Serpent,
It's fiery tongues bearing forth speech
Into all the kingoms of the Earth."


My book, "Behold: the Prince of Darkness!": https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1726037460/ref=dbs_a_w_dp_1726037460

W_Adam_Smythe

Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2018, 05:51:51 am »
There are a lot of really good points on this thread.

Perhaps to truly settle the debate, let me add a suggestion. Frankly, I don't think Gilmore would mind not being considered LHP at all. Were he honest, I don't think he would mind not being called a Satanist at all.  I also think that if he thought he could still make money at it that he would gladly have a Church of Atheism as ridiculous as that would be than a Church of Satan.

One 2015 article explains it a bit more explicitly:

https://believermag.com/satan-in-poughkeepsie/




By 2001—four years after the Doctor’s death, the original Black House now razed to the ground—power was transferred to Peter, and he was tired of all the baggage that came with the name Satan. He wanted to steer the church back to its ideas, its emphasis on atheism and reason. More bookish, solidly middle-class, and assimilated than his predecessor, with none of that scent of the carnie hustler about him, Peter’s been especially mindful that historians and scholars get the Church of Satan right. In 2007, he wrote his answer to LaVey’s Satanic Bible, called The Satanic Scriptures—a collection of essays reinforcing and updating the church’s values and worldview.


Even here though, when it states "back to its ideas, its emphasis on atheism" I would ask where that it comes from? As I have previously pointed out, the word atheist is used exactly once in The Satanic Bible, to make fun of Christian Atheists. Beyond that, while Satan is not explicitly defined nor is He explicitly denied.

In this article, https://www.churchofsatan.com/yes-we-have-no-occultism.php Gilmore plays all kinds of word soup while managing not to mention Greater Magic (or Magic at all for that matter) or Ritual once! Does he forget that one half of his "Church's" central doctrine is dedicated to both? Does he forget that his predecessor wrote an entire book called The Satanic Rituals? 

What Gilmore likes to do is pick and choose the parts of both LaVey and his writings that fit his narrative of what he tries to sell as Satanism.

As has been mentioned, he likes to claim that his narrative of Satanism is the only true one and that anyone else are "pseudos" (I guess they can't bring themselves to have "Satanic" heretics).

There are plenty of taboos that are not to be brought up in Gilmore's CoS. These consist mainly of certain names, parts of CoS history, or pointing out current CoS inconsistencies...in short anything that disagrees with Gilmore.

If all of that doesn't sound like Christianity dressed up like Satan, I don't know what does.

To be fair though, Gilmore preaches atheism.

So be it. He shepherds quite a faithful flock of atheists.

Mindmaster

Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2018, 05:52:29 am »
Freaking love you MindMaster, you inspire me greatly! Hail MindMaster!

I take no credit for what I typed there, as I was led to it all by the nose by Satan himself. Very reluctantly. :D

Mindmaster

Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2018, 06:53:00 am »
There are a lot of really good points on this thread.

Perhaps to truly settle the debate, let me add a suggestion. Frankly, I don't think Gilmore would mind not being considered LHP at all. Were he honest, I don't think he would mind not being called a Satanist at all.  I also think that if he thought he could still make money at it that he would gladly have a Church of Atheism as ridiculous as that would be than a Church of Satan.


I've basically come to the conclusion that CoS is a bunch of online trolls attempting to validate their choice to send $200 to Peter H. Gilmore and Peggy Nadramia. They're not going to change their name because then they lose all of that free money. Thinking it is anything more than that is simply ridiculous, and to use their favorite word, solipsistic. That is the reason for the vacuous sleeping-at-the-helm type nature of their leadership. The entire organization is nothing but a whore for them to pimp out and pad their wallets.

I'm not mad that they're atheists, but rather bothered by the fact that they take what Satan is and pervert it. You can embody the principal of spiritual freedom that Satanism is without worshiping Satan in any way, but what they do is bully and defame others and misrepresent others as hacks when they themselves are exactly that.

Certainly, LaVey himself used the CoS as income but he also really did believe in the core principal himself (freedom) and would have never taken to insulting others whom diverged from his notions a bit. That's what makes him a better man in my view and why the current leadership are posers. He never berated a theistic Satanist himself nor attempted to style them as anything but a Satanist. He was always trying to bring people around in a positive way to the left hand path philosophy. He had no mandates he just presented his opinion. That's entirely the difference.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 06:55:52 am by Mindmaster »