Author Topic: Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist  (Read 934 times)

Kapalika

Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist
« on: November 20, 2017, 10:06:44 am »
Cross post from a debate topic I made on another forum: https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/hate-isnt-the-way-of-the-satanist.203246/

Hate is a very strong emotion. Much is made, particularly among certain types, of the fact that humans are both hating and loving creatures. I honestly think such attitudes are rooted in tribalism. Love your friends, hate your enemies. Such has been the battle cry for eons of the warlike religions, political ideologies and governmental entities who sought to expand through violence and forced conversion.

It seems for some they feel as if they should love a few and default to a hateful attitude towards many others. I don't agree. Rather, I'd propose, hate should be rationed just as those like LaVey told the Satanist to ration love in The Satanic Bible (though I'll take this further later on). Hate is a destructive emotion by nature and its liable to backfire if one isn't careful with it.

"But but! Those intolerant, or evil or brainwashing x religion/group!" Well, my dear diabolical friend... simply moving the sword from the right hand to the left hand is still using a sword (see what I did there? :p). I've actually heard Matthew 10:34 and Luke 14:26 used to justify hate mongering, for example. Sadly the trap of hate is one easy to fall into. Those verses, Yeshua bringing a sword to divide, and saying one must hate others to love him, I chose for a reason and not randomly. It's again that tribalism; that old us vs them that's the trap I'm warning against.

I don't consider myself a LaVeyan in any sense, and I will break down a relevant statement in his Satanic Bible and what I disagree with, since this is what I am comparing my position to:

“Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.”  - Anton LaVey's The Satanic Bible (1969)

Okay, so love and hate are intense. So far so good.  But the moment he starts talking about indiscriminate love he never contrasts about indiscriminate hate. Yes, I understand that most hateful Satanic types do discriminate, although too often I've seen it be over petty things. There's seems to be something in the id so to speak, that thrives on the release of hating people for stupid crap. This isn't to say this is LaVeyans specifically who do that, funny enough I've seen it with theists quite a lot, but in a lot of ways they take things like this to an extreme and so the passage merited quoting. I picked LaVeyan / Church of Satan out of any other sect as it's one of the few notable groups espousing a view on the pro-hate end of the spectrum. (also funny enough there are more LaVeyan influenced theistic Satanists than first impressions might give otherwise if my online interactions are any indication).

I don't know how we determine who "deserves" hate. What LaVey failed to account for is that since Satanism exalts the subjectivity of the individual there won't be any measure beyond whim for who "deserves" what. Such inclinations in my opinion quickly lend to tyranny of those higher up in the social "stratification" as LaVey's successor Gilmore would put it.

I don't think 99.9% of people can experience "indiscriminate love" but surely an attempt respect for all life is at least on some level rational. Satan is the god of man, of our nature. And there is a part of our nature that does seek to better itself. I'm reminded of an Episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where the Android named Data (who wishes to be a human) says it's not important that he will never become fully human, just important that he is always trying to improve himself. That to me, that constant self improvement, and personal evolution is what is at the heart of humanity and Satanism. So why can't we aim to try to love more? Perhaps even universally so? It might not be possible, but it's surely worth the effort.

LaVey almost made a valid point, but missed the mark when he said "repressed hate" instead of "repressed emotion". Hate itself, from what I've come to understand of it, festers and grows off of itself. And that's the danger. Most people (I hope) don't take out their frustrations on other people or their loved ones. I honestly think LaVey might of been speaking from experience when he spoke on that.

If someone has someone they really dislike causing them trouble they might diffuse the tension with something healthy like a hobby or working out, whatever. But taking it out on a living being? Even loved ones if they can't against the aggressor? Something more is going on there that most well adjusted people don't have (or at least I hope so anyways).

There are times though, I think "hate" of a sort is warranted, but very rarely so. It's too subjective and honestly if something is that malicious one can address the person or situation indifferently and rationally. I also would say that hate is pretty much something people should avoid as much as possible since it uses up energy and effort. Quite literally it's not worth the effort. If they are truly that bad, it's not worth hating and getting worked up over. They don't deserve your hate. That's why I say, who really deserves hate?

A Satanist should seek to improve themselves, not get carried away with those who are against them. That energy is better spent on becoming a better person, a better Satanist, a better human. Maybe Data had a point. Maybe it isn't the fact that one will ever stop hating entirely but just the fact that they won't be consumed or distracted by it as much and can better spend that effort on themselves is all that matters.

And a topic for another time, but nor does that mean one should be self righteous or arrogant in their dismissal of those they now "don't hate" :) Truly not caring is even less than that; it's not having much of an emotional reaction at all.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 11:22:22 am by Kapalika »
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Kapalika

Re: Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2017, 05:01:21 am »
I admit I was being a bit of a devil's advocate, trying to balance it out with going a little too far in the other direction. If anyone has any thoughts I'm looking forward to it.
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

pi_rameses

Re: Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 05:21:01 am »
Reading through some of the other posts in RF from Liu and others.
Pro omnis dominos viae sinistra, sic itur ad astra

Kapalika

Re: Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 05:32:41 am »
Alright, well after I get all the responses I would I'll brew on it for an unspecified amount of time and probably make a part 2 with a revised view on it lol. In a couple of ways I kind of go back and forth on the topic to be honest. Been trying to reconcile that.
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

pi_rameses

Re: Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 06:55:57 am »
The part on indiscriminate hate is consistent. And not everyone being deserving of your hate.

But both of those I think are discriminate. I'll mull more over this and might add sporadically.
Pro omnis dominos viae sinistra, sic itur ad astra

Ave Lucifugus

  • Guest
Re: Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 02:36:59 pm »
Neither indiscriminate love nor indiscriminate hate make a lot of sense to me. If you love or hate everyone, then it devalues your love for, say your significant other, or your hate towards your enemy.

Now, I do condone mass resentment towards a larger group. I, for one, have resentment towards humanity by default, but I do love and respect those who prove themselves to be worthy of it, in my eyes. This is my judgement alone, and in no way am I claiming that my views are correct and that I consider myself superior to others.

No, the concept of superiority and inferiority are relative, which is why I add them to equations only when necessary.

But, I do resent humans for being so opportunistic, among many other reasons. Humans are often romanticized as these beings who deep down all want to be loved, and if given that love and respect, they'll return it. Perhaps my judgement of humans wouldn't be so ill if I hadn't been force-fed this garbage when I was younger. If I had been told that humans are just over-evolved apes who do have the potential of spiritual greatness, but are in practice opportunistic animals who would prey upon their own if given the right reward with small enough risk.

I would not say I hate humans, though. Hate implies a festering feeling whereas what I "feel" towards humans is more of a constant negative outlook on them. That's all.

Your post, @Kapalika , may have just inspired me to look into Stoicism and cultivate indifference.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 02:41:17 pm by pi_ramesses »

DennisTate

Re: Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2018, 01:20:41 pm »
I admit I was being a bit of a devil's advocate, trying to balance it out with going a little too far in the other direction. If anyone has any thoughts I'm looking forward to it.

Actually........ I believe that your message is prophetic......
is inspired... and is comparable to a true daughter.........  speaking a message direct from the top........
rather than low level messages by servants........
who have little or no understanding of what is really happening.........

On that note... I should send you a personal message to elaborate on what I think is happening........

Mindmaster

Re: Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2018, 04:09:11 pm »
Cross post from a debate topic I made on another forum: https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/hate-isnt-the-way-of-the-satanist.203246/

Hate is a very strong emotion. Much is made, particularly among certain types, of the fact that humans are both hating and loving creatures. I honestly think such attitudes are rooted in tribalism. Love your friends, hate your enemies. Such has been the battle cry for eons of the warlike religions, political ideologies and governmental entities who sought to expand through violence and forced conversion.

It seems for some they feel as if they should love a few and default to a hateful attitude towards many others. I don't agree. Rather, I'd propose, hate should be rationed just as those like LaVey told the Satanist to ration love in The Satanic Bible (though I'll take this further later on). Hate is a destructive emotion by nature and its liable to backfire if one isn't careful with it.

"But but! Those intolerant, or evil or brainwashing x religion/group!" Well, my dear diabolical friend... simply moving the sword from the right hand to the left hand is still using a sword (see what I did there? :p). I've actually heard Matthew 10:34 and Luke 14:26 used to justify hate mongering, for example. Sadly the trap of hate is one easy to fall into. Those verses, Yeshua bringing a sword to divide, and saying one must hate others to love him, I chose for a reason and not randomly. It's again that tribalism; that old us vs them that's the trap I'm warning against.

I don't consider myself a LaVeyan in any sense, and I will break down a relevant statement in his Satanic Bible and what I disagree with, since this is what I am comparing my position to:

“Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.”  - Anton LaVey's The Satanic Bible (1969)

Okay, so love and hate are intense. So far so good.  But the moment he starts talking about indiscriminate love he never contrasts about indiscriminate hate. Yes, I understand that most hateful Satanic types do discriminate, although too often I've seen it be over petty things. There's seems to be something in the id so to speak, that thrives on the release of hating people for stupid crap. This isn't to say this is LaVeyans specifically who do that, funny enough I've seen it with theists quite a lot, but in a lot of ways they take things like this to an extreme and so the passage merited quoting. I picked LaVeyan / Church of Satan out of any other sect as it's one of the few notable groups espousing a view on the pro-hate end of the spectrum. (also funny enough there are more LaVeyan influenced theistic Satanists than first impressions might give otherwise if my online interactions are any indication).

I don't know how we determine who "deserves" hate. What LaVey failed to account for is that since Satanism exalts the subjectivity of the individual there won't be any measure beyond whim for who "deserves" what. Such inclinations in my opinion quickly lend to tyranny of those higher up in the social "stratification" as LaVey's successor Gilmore would put it.

I don't think 99.9% of people can experience "indiscriminate love" but surely an attempt respect for all life is at least on some level rational. Satan is the god of man, of our nature. And there is a part of our nature that does seek to better itself. I'm reminded of an Episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where the Android named Data (who wishes to be a human) says it's not important that he will never become fully human, just important that he is always trying to improve himself. That to me, that constant self improvement, and personal evolution is what is at the heart of humanity and Satanism. So why can't we aim to try to love more? Perhaps even universally so? It might not be possible, but it's surely worth the effort.

LaVey almost made a valid point, but missed the mark when he said "repressed hate" instead of "repressed emotion". Hate itself, from what I've come to understand of it, festers and grows off of itself. And that's the danger. Most people (I hope) don't take out their frustrations on other people or their loved ones. I honestly think LaVey might of been speaking from experience when he spoke on that.

If someone has someone they really dislike causing them trouble they might diffuse the tension with something healthy like a hobby or working out, whatever. But taking it out on a living being? Even loved ones if they can't against the aggressor? Something more is going on there that most well adjusted people don't have (or at least I hope so anyways).

There are times though, I think "hate" of a sort is warranted, but very rarely so. It's too subjective and honestly if something is that malicious one can address the person or situation indifferently and rationally. I also would say that hate is pretty much something people should avoid as much as possible since it uses up energy and effort. Quite literally it's not worth the effort. If they are truly that bad, it's not worth hating and getting worked up over. They don't deserve your hate. That's why I say, who really deserves hate?

A Satanist should seek to improve themselves, not get carried away with those who are against them. That energy is better spent on becoming a better person, a better Satanist, a better human. Maybe Data had a point. Maybe it isn't the fact that one will ever stop hating entirely but just the fact that they won't be consumed or distracted by it as much and can better spend that effort on themselves is all that matters.

And a topic for another time, but nor does that mean one should be self righteous or arrogant in their dismissal of those they now "don't hate" :) Truly not caring is even less than that; it's not having much of an emotional reaction at all.

Hate is simply a conditioned response, in essence it's being a robot and doing what other people have told you to do or you tell yourself to do based on some faulty logic that you trust in. It's a non-thinking position and therein lies the true folly of the thing. Acting without thinking is just about the most un-Satanic thing I can think you are capable of doing. It's a shame that no where in The Satanic Bible was LaVey clear about this other than in respect to obvious blunders like dogma, or other sacred cows.

The other point of contention, at this juncture, is another ultimate "Satanic Sin" that goes unsaid in TSB - wasting your time. Channel your hate, spend time trolling people on the Internet, or whatever - it's all wasting time you could be using to do something productive. If self-mastery is the ultimate goal of a Satanic path, then it behoves one to strike this attribute from ones character ASAP in the aim to optimize your path for efficiency. Displaying this, like I've seen so many others on the Internet affiliated with the top ranks of CoS, in public, is simply signalling your complete failure to implement and master the path. If you are an atheistic Satanist no doubt the worst thing you could ever do is squander your life on useless activities since this is all the time you have.

Many try to justify this behavior when their egos are bruised as well, as if that is any excuse. That is the fundamental flaw of the mind-body association in the first place, that your conditioned beliefs are you and that you must die for them. The proof that refutes is simple enough: Were you burdened by any of these ideas as a child? We don't start from a position of hate, we learn it - therefore it fundamentally is a delusion in our heads. How can it be real if we must be trained to behave in such a fashion? Our fundamental nature, of course, must be beyond this and the only reason we trust in it is because of others we trust in our lives echoing those sentiments. Again, this sleep-walking through life is the ultimate contradiction for paths which espouse some sort of self-mastery. What self are you talking about anyway? The one that basically was conditioned by being beat like a dog? It's a classic trap, if you buy into the bullshit of the thing. To achieve ultimate mastery of such a path, in my opinion, you must take the ropes off your body that are holding you down so you can act freely as you need. Without this, you really are just pretending to embrace the left-handed path in the sense that your ego deludes itself into thinking it is achieving the aim. One hog tied by a myriad of delusions is not mentally free, nor are they really following such a path.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 04:14:15 pm by Mindmaster »

Kapalika

Re: Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2018, 09:16:40 am »
Well said Mindmaster. I'm glad you get fully where I'm coming from. My view is a little more nuanced in that I think negative feelings are acceptable so long as they don't burden, but true hate always burdens, and preoccupies. So it's best to minimize feelings like that that don't aid in the path.


I admit I was being a bit of a devil's advocate, trying to balance it out with going a little too far in the other direction. If anyone has any thoughts I'm looking forward to it.

Actually........ I believe that your message is prophetic......
is inspired... and is comparable to a true daughter.........  speaking a message direct from the top........
rather than low level messages by servants........
who have little or no understanding of what is really happening.........


Didn't expect to see you here.


Some say "As Above, so Below" (although that saying wasn't Satanic in origin).  There is no reason to have a duality of Heaven/Hell when Satan is God :D


Satan is the source of All, it is the cause of all reality we see unfold and is the animator and animated, the formed and the formless. The creator, destroyer and preserver... and the creation and the rules that govern creation and those acts upon it. It is everything, it is the Shiva-Shakti.


So I have no need to sequester Satan to Hell; SATAN IS Heaven! Not just Samael, but the very existence of all of reality itself!
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Mindmaster

Re: Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2018, 06:19:53 am »
Well said Mindmaster. I'm glad you get fully where I'm coming from. My view is a little more nuanced in that I think negative feelings are acceptable so long as they don't burden, but true hate always burdens, and preoccupies. So it's best to minimize feelings like that that don't aid in the path.

Feelings are O.K., IMHO, if they are in the now. They come, they go, you forget them. If you do more than that it just gets you distracted and wastes all of your energy. That applies to all emotions whether or they're good or bad from your perspective, but understand I'm not conveying you should be an unfeeling monster or something. I'm merely implying that you should strive to live in the now and the more you can do that the more productive you will be at every single thing you are involved in. It's not even much better if you chase after things like happiness because when you feel you lack it you are sad. It just gets worse from there really... Trade them all for a disposition of serenity and profit, basically.

fnord

Re: Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2018, 03:18:24 am »
Hate takes time and energy  - both things a Satanist knows are finite.

A careful measure of gains and losses acquired through hate will likely reveal that it is ultimately futile and wasteful.

Instead look at those you would hate and evaluate them for a possible gain. Do you hate them because they speak a truth you don’t wish to hear? Perhaps they’ve wronged you in some way?

In the film A Bronx Tale, a character is upset because a person he loaned $20 to keeps avoiding him. His mentor tells him to consider that he’s bought a lowlife out of his life for the petty sum of $20 - he should be grateful.

My 2 pennies.

Olive

Re: Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2018, 03:09:00 am »
This was a beautiful post Kapalika. Just a short comment: Hate is not actually a thoughtless emotion, though it may be a low-consciousness one.

It has been said many times that the primary movers of human behavior are Desire and Aversion. Desire is what drives a human onward to a goal, and Aversion is what repels him from what he fears or dislikes. It can be debated which is more powerful, but it is clear which is more impactful subjectively - Desire. Because desire is always active, in whatever circumstances. Aversion is a dependent reaction.

One might be tempted to say that Hate is an aversion, but it actually isn't. It is desire turned towards darkness - it is to will harm or destruction to another person or group or thing. It is a constant pull, not a situational push. This is why I said Hate is not thoughtless - it is nurtured on brooding and troubled thoughts.

Thought and Desire feed on each other until Desire is insatiable. Greed is born. It is the same with every desire - hate and love are hardly different in this. But in the case of hate, what is that greed for? Nothing but anguish and ruin. This is why hate is such a poisonous thing, and I can't agree with "learning to release it." That is like saying you will learn not to burn in fire - it's foolish. There is nothing it can do for you that a pure Will could not accomplish much better. Whenever it arises, we should examine what produced it in ourselves, and understand the insidiousness of what we are entertaining. It is almost guaranteed to backfire, and even if it does not you have still harmed and deranged yourself.

It is for this and other reasons that I do not cast curses. The two are not the same, but without the former there is much less occasion to justify the latter.
    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Onyx

Re: Hate Isn't the way of the Satanist
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2018, 09:44:08 am »
Emotions which are supressed rather than experienced tend to funnel down to anger. Therefore I think people who are excessively hateful towards others haven't pulled enough tears out of their emotional well, so it overflows.

If someone pisses me off, tomorrow is another day. If they keep doing it, I'll try to find a pragmatic solution. Whether it's worth the bother is another story. I have an old book on psychology which suggests that thoughts control feelings, a concept I've found very useful over the years.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 07:52:33 pm by pi_rameses »