Author Topic: Dreaming and magic  (Read 159 times)

Kapalika

Dreaming and magic
« on: March 29, 2018, 11:36:54 am »
Do you ever have insights or profound moments in dreams that have impacted your waking life, even your journey among the Left Hand Path?


Actually now that I can more or less trace back the beginnings of my LHP walk to some dreams.. Has anyone else had a similar experience where dreams can be a reflection of their journey, even a guide for it at times? I think it can be useful, assuming it aligns with reason/theology/ect, as opposed to rationalization, but then maybe we can think we are doing the former but dong the latter. So there is always a lot to consider when consulting with an irrational and highly symbolic part of our psyche.


There is more I could say to expand on this, including lucid dreaming... I've done a lot of "dream magic" that's crept into the waking world so to speak in my time. I'm mostly curious how typical my experiences are or are not among the magically inclined. The exact nature of my experiences are rather personal but I will share what I feel comfortable with in comparing and contrasting as people respond :)


Now I got Astral Projection's "Still Dreaming" stuck in my head (off of their 1996 Trust in Trance Album) lol.





Also on a more scientific note, it seems that self reflection and lucid dreaming might be linked, which seems obvious to me but there is evidence for it now:


http://www.jneurosci.org/content/35/3/1082.short


https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-01/m-lda012315.php
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." -- Swami Lakshmanjoo

fnord

Re: Dreaming and magic
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2018, 03:18:53 am »
I have had this experience - though I never considered it to be dream magic. I like the approach though.

I often do this at my job. I'm naturally right brained but my work largely depends upon the strengths of the left hemisphere.

When I run across programming problems I have trouble solving I stop working on it and then state what I want the end result to be (not out loud  :mrgreen: ).

What I've always thought of as subconscious will then go to work and often produce a solution I can understand in a dream. I then wake up and go code. I'm often credited with being a creative problem solver - I suppose because my abilities/inabilities force a solution that's unconventional to people who naturally perceive the world through the right hemisphere lens. 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 03:21:50 am by fnord »

Liu

Re: Dreaming and magic
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2018, 02:41:02 pm »
Nope.
I'm doing a dream diary since quite a while (~3 years?) and therefore can remember at least one dream per sleep, but hardly any have a spiritual/religious or divinatory aspect.

Most dreams I have are about alternative life-tracks (e.g. currently, now that I recently moved in into a shared appartment I sometimes dream I was living in a different shared appartment) or mix past experiences with current times (e.g. dreaming that I would for some weird reason be in highschool again, but with my current age and worries).

I haven't noticed a single instance in which something I dreamt later occurred in real life, except perhaps for very minor synchronicities (so minor that I don't even remember them atm).

And I can count on one hand the dreams I remembered in which spiritual entities/concepts were even as much as mentioned.
Well, one of them was quite remarkable, though. As some here might know I'm very much into religious devotion/bhakti, and in that dream I felt that in an intensity I haven't yet felt while awake. Actually, it was that mindblowing that I first only "woke up" into a different dream, to come down a bit I guess, before actually waking up.
But that's been after I've already been on my path for many years and therefore didn't really have any real impact on my further journey.

Regarding lucid dreaming, would be rad to do that, but haven't been able to thus far. I haven't really put much effort into trying, though.
The only times in which I was aware that I had been dreaming while still asleep (but still didn't have conscious control) were when I woke up from one dream into the next - sometimes I then knew that the previous dream had been a dream. But I still wasn't aware that the second one was a dream, too, but rather thought I had just gotten up.

Kapalika

Re: Dreaming and magic
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2018, 11:28:38 am »
I have had this experience - though I never considered it to be dream magic. I like the approach though.

I often do this at my job. I'm naturally right brained but my work largely depends upon the strengths of the left hemisphere.

When I run across programming problems I have trouble solving I stop working on it and then state what I want the end result to be (not out loud  :mrgreen: ).

What I've always thought of as subconscious will then go to work and often produce a solution I can understand in a dream. I then wake up and go code. I'm often credited with being a creative problem solver - I suppose because my abilities/inabilities force a solution that's unconventional to people who naturally perceive the world through the right hemisphere lens.


From what I've looked into there isn't a lot of solid evidence for the idea of a "right" or "left" brained thinker (since both sides of the brain do so much and can do one or the other.


But other than that that sounds a lot like some I've read about a way for the brain to "sort out" things. I know similarly the first people to experiment with LSD were scientists and used it to figure out problems by seeing things in new lights. I think dreaming is very similar in that regard.


I think there has been some study on dreams and their ability to help us problem solve and I tried to find something I read a couple of years ago but couldn't dig it up. But essentially this one guy was researching what you described about problem solving. He found you had to decode often highly subjective symbolism first though.


Nope.
I'm doing a dream diary since quite a while (~3 years?) and therefore can remember at least one dream per sleep, but hardly any have a spiritual/religious or divinatory aspect.

Most dreams I have are about alternative life-tracks (e.g. currently, now that I recently moved in into a shared appartment I sometimes dream I was living in a different shared appartment) or mix past experiences with current times (e.g. dreaming that I would for some weird reason be in highschool again, but with my current age and worries).

I always felt insane when I would dream I'm back in highschool. Usually at some point I realize it's a dream because I recall I already have a GED and have been to college before. But I've not had a dream like that in a very long time.


I guess it's rather common as it's in a fairly formative part of our life and what we did for 8 hours a day for years and years. I had some pretty traumatic experiences though in highschool that gave me PTSD so sometimes it would have some nightmare aspects to it.


Although I've not really had very many nightmares in years due to my work in lucid dreaming. Even if I don't realize I'm in a dream I just need to recall my dream powers and it solves the problem.

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IAnd I can count on one hand the dreams I remembered in which spiritual entities/concepts were even as much as mentioned.
Well, one of them was quite remarkable, though. As some here might know I'm very much into religious devotion/bhakti, and in that dream I felt that in an intensity I haven't yet felt while awake. Actually, it was that mindblowing that I first only "woke up" into a different dream, to come down a bit I guess, before actually waking up.
But that's been after I've already been on my path for many years and therefore didn't really have any real impact on my further journey.


Of the dreams I recall that are not about sex, about half of them are spiritual (and then many of the sexual ones can be spiritual too) so I find it maybe a little more odd that you don't but maybe I just don't know you well enough lol.


But we are all different I just thought that LHP folks might be more prone to spiritual like dreams.



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Regarding lucid dreaming, would be rad to do that, but haven't been able to thus far. I haven't really put much effort into trying, though.
The only times in which I was aware that I had been dreaming while still asleep (but still didn't have conscious control) were when I woke up from one dream into the next - sometimes I then knew that the previous dream had been a dream. But I still wasn't aware that the second one was a dream, too, but rather thought I had just gotten up.


I find dream journals good for sparking some memories of certain dreams. ive certainly recorded down a lot of dreams. I rarely recall a lot of details although the writing makes enough sense to get across the message.


But overall I'd say that dream journals while nice IMO are not the key to lucid dreaming. It simply will come down to self awareness. There are some tricks I know, simple shit like keep asking yourself if you are dreaming throughout the day a few times then keep asking yourself over and over as you go to bed.


Another is to make habits of looking at clocks. For some reason they never look the same in dreams twice or look nonsensical. Reading is the same way but at least for me I try to read whatever anyway lol and can kinda brute force it some.


The worst dreams is when you are trying to do something the whole dream and can't seen to get it right because the dream logic and physics are fighting against something that should totally be natural in teh waking world.


That's another thing, you can recognize your dream logic and physics and exploit that. For example, for some reason my legs are not always fully paralyzed when I sleep so I learned to levitate whenever I want to travel in my dreamscape. So sometimes when I start to levitate I recognize I'm dreaming and that is probably my most common trigger into lucid dreaming.


My dreamscapes are also constantly morphing as if I'm not in 3D space and spacetime becomes nonlinear. So sometimes I recognize that way too. I also recognize if I know the place I'm visiting in the dreamscape (I've even tried to map out some of it before). So if you find yourself dreaming of the same places and it seems different than the waking world see if you can map out the place. My dreamscape is based loosely off of a mirror world of the real world that's greatly exaggerated although I have extremely rarely went anwhere I've never been IRL.


Sorry for ramblings sleep deprived but I hope this might of given you some ideas. really again IMO lucid dreaming is more about finding the right things to trigger your awareness and practicing while awake not just asleep. I'd do it more myself but I rarely have vivid enough dreams these days to really get into dreams like I used to (probably as I've been waking up a lot more than I used to.
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." -- Swami Lakshmanjoo

Liu

Re: Dreaming and magic
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2018, 05:32:09 pm »
Quote from: Kapalika
I always felt insane when I would dream I'm back in highschool. Usually at some point I realize it's a dream because I recall I already have a GED and have been to college before. But I've not had a dream like that in a very long time.
Actual nightmares are really rare for me (and if they occur, they are of the kind where I immediately after starting to sleep feel like I'm falling and wake straight up again).

But school has also been a bit, in a way, traumatic for me.
In retrospect I understand that a lot of what seemed terrible at that time to me wasn't actually, but I was extremely shy (hardly dared to talk to classmates up till after graduating highschool) Therefore I, on the one hand, was actually sometimes bullied and socially excluded, and on the other hand, if someone tried to be friendly to me, suspected they'd either were trying to make fun of me or would soon notice anything about me that they could make fun of. And that then led to me acting in a way that made it even more likely that some of them would, and that even the ones who didn't mean me any harm would leave me alone.

It's much better now - still get a burst of social anxiety now and then, but I can cope with it.
Nevertheless I guess I have quite a bit of processing all that to do still, which explains why it's among the more common dreams for me.

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Of the dreams I recall that are not about sex, about half of them are spiritual (and then many of the sexual ones can be spiritual too) so I find it maybe a little more odd that you don't but maybe I just don't know you well enough lol.


But we are all different I just thought that LHP folks might be more prone to spiritual like dreams.

Yeah, I find it a tad strange, too, that I dream so rarely about spiritual matters, considering how much of my waking time I spend thinking on it.
Even about linguistics (as you may remember, that's my profession) I dream more often, but that's rare too.
Hm, perhaps it's because I typically tend to dream mostly about people I know in real life? And with people in real life I avoid talking about spiritual matters, and also linguistics isn't the most common topic (well, with my new job that's to be changing soon, though). Doesn't really explain some other things which I talk about with people in dreams that I don't normally talk about with people.

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But overall I'd say that dream journals while nice IMO are not the key to lucid dreaming.
I agree. Still intending to keep it up, though. Most times I only recall some details anyways, so writing down more than 2 or perhaps 3 lines is very rare.

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It simply will come down to self awareness. There are some tricks I know, simple shit like keep asking yourself if you are dreaming throughout the day a few times then keep asking yourself over and over as you go to bed.
I guess that's the method that should work best for me currently and I really should put more effort in that one if I actually want to get lucid.
Have started that method two or three times and then dropped it again because I somehow found better things to focus on.

Another method I heard of is setting an alarm to the middle of the night because then falling asleep again is said to make it easier to get a lucid dream.
But I already don't get enough sleep (or rather, I get quite enough and still feel tired in the morning), so no sense in also risking my currently pretty stable sleep rhythm and getting even less rest.

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Another is to make habits of looking at clocks.
I don't remember having ever seen a clock in a dream, and there aren't that many around in real life either.

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My dreamscapes are also constantly morphing as if I'm not in 3D space and spacetime becomes nonlinear. So sometimes I recognize that way too. I also recognize if I know the place I'm visiting in the dreamscape (I've even tried to map out some of it before). So if you find yourself dreaming of the same places and it seems different than the waking world see if you can map out the place. My dreamscape is based loosely off of a mirror world of the real world that's greatly exaggerated although I have extremely rarely went anwhere I've never been IRL.
If I remember enough details to describe the places, there most often wasn't much spatiality to them - I rarely actually walk in dreams, normally I'm just at one place and then at another, and only dimly aware of the surroundings.

If I was aware in the dreams that things like that are strange, then becoming lucid would be easy - they just don't seem strange while dreaming.

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Sorry for ramblings sleep deprived but I hope this might of given you some ideas. really again IMO lucid dreaming is more about finding the right things to trigger your awareness and practicing while awake not just asleep. I'd do it more myself but I rarely have vivid enough dreams these days to really get into dreams like I used to (probably as I've been waking up a lot more than I used to.
In that case, good night and nice dreams! :D
And thanks for the tips.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 05:35:53 pm by Liu »

Olive

Re: Dreaming and magic
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2018, 08:16:47 pm »
Absolutely. Over the past several months I have been practicing dream yoga with on-and-off success. The quality of my dreams has become quite different. I used to find myself swept up and taken in by strange and alien worlds, times, and cultures that were unlike anything in my waking experience. I would even become a totally new person, with my own goals and feelings and fears. It often felt so real that I would be entirely convinced that my entire being had existed in that place.

Barring dreams like those, I would experience dramatized renditions of things in my waking life -my interests and fears and failures writ large.

These are what can be called Samsaric Dreams. They are produced by karmic traces in the dreamer. Unfulfilled hopes and anxieties, obsessions, etc. The mind that has been freely chattering all day continues to do so, except now it has much less sensory input to distract from it's ravings. I don't mean to say that these dreams are totally bad or useless; they are actually very useful. If you can remember them, with practice you can clearly see what the mind is hanging on to.


It is possible to go beyond this type of dreaming. If your consciousness is highly developed and unattached, if the mind has submitted to the Will, a different type of dreaming can occur. Dreams of Clarity. This is how many of my dreams are at this point in my practice. Often the dream itself has less of an object or point, because awareness is more stable and has less to obsess over. Sometimes not much is manifested, and consciousness just reappears and exists as self-satisfying being. Sometimes there is a manifestation, but it has so much less power to deceive. I exist light and carefree in whatever existence I find myself in. When desire is lessened or reduced to none, the mind can offer no trap that will successfully lead you into obsession and striving - so there is peace. In this state you can just watch as concepts arise from the mind, and you can identify the reality of each one as it does so. You can manifest things and thoughts intentionally to work on a problem, gain insight, or just to experience something new. You can choose to go and explore within the self, or you can choose to just exist blissfully unmoved.


There is a third type of dream, called a Clear Light Dream. This is the highest type, and it occurs for me only occasionally as of now. Here there is no embodiment - it is just pure consciousness everywhere/nowhere. You are all that exists, and you exist as one. It is similar to very deep meditation and enlightenment experiences, except even more so because in this state there is no possibility of the intuition of the outside world, the physical body, or even the astral body. It is pure awareness, unchained from limitation. An absolute beauty. That which no mystic can ever describe. By chance I stumbled into one of these experiences in a lucid dream when I was 16 - before I had ever begun meditating or diving into my studies of mysticism and the occult. It profoundly impacted me. Even today I still count it as one of the most wondrous experiences of my life. It took me years to encounter anything like it again, and to make sense of what had happened to me.

It is said of the enlightened ones who master dream yoga, that they perpetually experience this. Day and Night, there is one consciousness of pure light, uninterrupted by anything. Always abiding in the majesty of everythingness/nothingness. I think it would take a rare individual to approach the legend, but I have begun to see how it might be possible through my dream explorations and practice.

Most people waste their dreams, but once you understand their mechanics, they become a profound opportunity for consioussness work apart from the restrictions of daily life. I think this ability is highly personal to each person, so I'm not sure how well you can learn it from another person. But with enough willpower and practice, you will make progress.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 09:11:32 pm by Olive »

Kapalika

Re: Dreaming and magic
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2018, 11:57:08 am »
You know @Olive , that's given me a new perspective on dreams I hadn't considered (about the karmic traces, samsaric dreams ect). It never really occurred to me to try to reach meditative states in the dream world. I guess I always saw dreams more as a canvas and using the picture for either enjoyment, insight, or interacting with spirits. But it's apt as the dream worlds in a way might resemble Maya and dreams are often used to describe Maya (although I have a different view, being Trika I think Maya is totally concerete unlike dreams).


I think, assuming that at the moment I recall it, the next time I lucid dream I might try meditating in the dream world and see what happens, see if I can accomplish something similar. I've had a long dry spell though with even recalling dreams, but it could be something to work towards trying :D
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 11:59:14 am by Kapalika »
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." -- Swami Lakshmanjoo