Author Topic: noncontradiction may not be true  (Read 149 times)

Kapalika

noncontradiction may not be true
« on: March 23, 2018, 04:30:35 pm »

So I often see arguments against what certain religions believe about the attributes of god(s) based on the idea that those qualities contradict.

So then we are left with this; How can we know for certain that the law of non-contradiction is true? To prove it it would have to use itself.
Or at least that is what this told me:

http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/AristotlePNC.pdf

The law of non-contradiction does not describe anything in the real world and is only a property of certain systems of math.

For example classical logic is incompatible with what we know of quantum mechanics and so there is a different set of logic for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_logic

If something can be both a particle and a wave at the same time, or be in two places at once, then I don't see how the law of noncontradiction can be true:

http://discovermagazine.com/2005/jun/cover

https://phys.org/news/2015-01-atoms.html


So essentially there is some possible evidence for dialtheism (basically the position that rejects the law of non-contradiction). With that in mind, what use is it in trying to disprove a religious belief through contradiction if it is possible for real, natural world contradictions to exist in physical phenomena?

To be more explicit, while non-contradiction says something can't contradict by being true and false at the same time, the superstate of a particle doesn't enter a state of non-contradiction until it's been measured. In the above article in the quote Roger Penrose proposed that we can't contradict butt hat quantum phenomena can because of microgravity. That could be one possibility but really no one knows why quantum phenomena behaves differently but the fact is that these phenomena prove that contradiction can exist physically.

If the religion regularly employs contradictions as if it is a non-issue you won't convince anyone not because they are stupid, or uneducated, but because you are coming from a different set of assumed axioms. By definition these cannot be falsified or verified by logic alone, let alone ignoring there is more than one rule set of logic. Ultimately the truth of noncontradiction or dialetheism will come down to evidence, not logic and so far I think that the evidence is in favor of dialetheism being at least partly true.


If this is the case, what implications might it have for your belief system? It's worth mentioning that just because some contradictions can be true, doesn't mean all are. If you take the position of dialetheism how do you determine what contradictions are true or not?
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." -- Swami Lakshmanjoo

Liu

Re: noncontradiction may not be true
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2018, 05:50:23 pm »
I'm not convinced that the quantum example is truly a case of contradiction. Just because we perceive/conceptualize wave and particle as distinct things doesn't mean they are. The reality behind it could just be that all things simply are in a state that includes the potential of both forms of manifestation, and depending on the circumstances or point of view, things manifest (or seem to) as either.

But nevertheless I'd agree - why would it be a given that the divine is under the same rules of logic as the universe? Even in pantheism. And actually especially in pantheism. Something that would contain all the contradictions of existence would likely be quite the contradiction itself (and I'm sure you'll agree with me on that point), or at least look like that.

That's why I'm an agnostic. There is hardly anything truly possible to know because we don't even really know whether the logic we apply is fundamentally true. I mean, even "I think, therefore I am" could be challenged on those grounds.

I would therefore resort to personal experience. That won't prove anything either and is very incomplete, but it's at least fairly immediate/unfiltered.
Combined however with critical thinking, in order to not buy into any psychosis one might be on the way to develop.
And combined with one's knowledge of other people's experiences, and with a fair amount of experimenting/paradigm shifting, in order to observe how existence, or at least one's perception thereof, behaves differently depending on one's own beliefs about it.

A ton of work, and lastly will still prove nothing.
So perhaps just give up on the quest for Truth and enjoy the ride?
Not really possible either for at least some of us curious apes.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 05:52:38 pm by Liu »

Kapalika

Re: noncontradiction may not be true
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2018, 06:35:43 pm »
If QM does or doesn't will come down to what interpetation of the model you believe (hidden variable, many worlds ect) but I suppose i assumed certain interpretations here :P
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 01:11:16 am by Kapalika »
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." -- Swami Lakshmanjoo

Liu

Re: noncontradiction may not be true
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2018, 07:20:53 pm »
Yeah, I tend to assume hidden-variable. Far from being an expert on that, though, had to look up what is the Copenhagen interpretation.

Xepera maSet

Re: noncontradiction may not be true
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2018, 10:52:40 pm »
Fuzzy logic alone shows the law of non-contradiction isn't exactly axiomatic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic

There are three axioms:

1. A is A and not Non-A (Law of Identity)

2. "I exists" (Law of Consciousness)

3. Existence exists (Law of Existence)
AKA: Three Scarabs, 1137


"Do we believe in Satan? The only thing that really matters is that he believes in us."
- A Nameless Ghoul

Kapalika

Re: noncontradiction may not be true
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2018, 01:11:44 am »
I corrected myself as Copenhagen wouldn't agree with me; I mised it up with another one
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." -- Swami Lakshmanjoo

Olive

Re: noncontradiction may not be true
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2018, 05:51:34 pm »
"You can recognize a small truth because its opposite is a falsehood. The opposite of a great truth is another truth."
-Niels Bohr

That being said, I don't think we can extend the apparent contradictions of quantum mechanics, or the paradoxical nature of higher-order truths, to the defense of fundamentalist religious belief.

For example, claiming one text is the holy text, and stating that it's mythological elements are historical facts - when all evidence is to the contrary. Just because some contradictions point towards a higher truth or perhaps a non-truth, does not mean that all contradictions are without meaning.

I understand that many ancient stories were meant to have a different value than just as a history. I'm just saying that dialtheism should not protect a claimed chosen messenger from his demonstrable inconsistencies. (Generally speaking.)

« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 02:50:57 pm by Olive »

Kapalika

Re: noncontradiction may not be true
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2018, 05:06:30 am »
"You can recognize a small truth because its opposite is a falsehood. The opposite of a great truth is another truth."
-Niels Bohr

That being said, I don't think we can't extend the apparent contradictions of quantum mechanics, or the paradoxical nature of higher-order truths, to the defense of fundamentalist religious belief.

For example, claiming one text is the holy text, and stating that it's mythological elements are historical facts - when all evidence is to the contrary. Just because some contradictions point towards a higher truth or perhaps a non-truth, does not mean that all contradictions are without meaning.

I understand that many ancient stories were meant to have a different value than just as a history. I'm just saying that dialtheism should not protect a claimed chosen messenger from his demonstrable inconsistencies. (Generally speaking.)


The point would be that in the case where there is strong evidence that a contradiction can be true, not that all contradictions are true (just as all statements are not true). So in your example of history and holy texts the beliefs put in the texts still lack evidence and so we can't say we know they are true.


And if we believe the are true without evidence, we are in a no better position than before.


However I see non-contradiction as not applying to ordinary events and scale; since this contradiction is only observed on a quantum scale and not normal, all it can really do is imply that on non-ordinary scales non-contradiction might be true.


In other words maybe Shiva could be formed and unformed at the same time, but that otherwise our "middle" realm does have the law of non-contradiction in effect more or less.


The reason I've considered this view is that not only is t possible it exists, but it could solve a lot of paradoxes I've come across in my own theology as well as some other logical paradoxes in classical systems.
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." -- Swami Lakshmanjoo

pi_rameses

Re: noncontradiction may not be true
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2018, 01:24:46 pm »
Interestingly, whenever contradictions or paradox have occurred, it has gone on to be solved by someone else or remains unsolvable. It is indicative of still greater mysteries that we don't understand and so we can uncover.

I'm not entirely sure how this is relevant but I read something earlier this week concerning similarities in Simon's emanational metaphysics and M theory. I was reminded of it from the Niels Bohr quote from @Olive. It's why often I suspect that we are speaking on the great Truth but as we understand it individually whether in terms of material monism, non-dualism, idealism or dualism explicitly. The work is quite long and heavily conjectural but here's the link:

First Century String Theory
http://www.themirroredbridalchamber.com/Bridal_Chamber/first-century-string-theory.html
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 01:30:12 pm by pi_rameses »
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