Author Topic: The main goal and path of magic?  (Read 850 times)

Frater Sisyphus

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The main goal and path of magic?
« on: January 30, 2018, 04:01:24 am »
Excluding that there are a diverse array of traditions that practice magic in different ways, for different reasons (spiritual or otherwise) and that there is both the LHP and RHP categories......does magic as a whole have any commonly shared aim or purpose?


This was prompted by that RF thread, which has got me thinking. 
For me, it's definitely about personal transformation and (to use a non-magic term) to find the eternal tao (and) my Will.
I don't presently believe in anything particularly supernatural, so it's more of a psychological practice that is very close to my heart.  :)

Olive

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2018, 05:01:52 pm »
To me, magic is the highest expression of free will.

We feel that we have a big say in all of our daily activities, but honest observation reveals we are mostly ruled by our habits, routines, paradigm, and necessities. (Those aren't all mutually exclusive.) Magic is the crafting and shaping of mentality - and as I've said before: Mentality is everything, it is the road you're on, it affects what kind of realizations you can have at any given moment. When one uses alchemical technologies to transmute these subtle energies, she can direct the path of her own evolution and cultivate the will.

To touch upon your mention of the Eternal Tao - I too make use of meditation/yoga/mindfulness to get in touch with "That," whatever you might call it. There is a wisdom energy involved with those practices that is very transformative...  I would consider this to be a different area of expertise but it is decidedly supplemental to magic. This understanding will shatter your illusions thoroughly, and make you much more free to define yourself. Plus give you a working grasp of what it feels like to turn awareness inward (to the point where I consider meditation to be pretty much necessary for someone who is getting into magic for the first time. It can be ineffective or even dangerous otherwise.)  The only downside is that at high levels you won't be able to unsee the ignorance and blind folly of the world and the average person without reconditioning yourself, so many interests will start unraveling for you.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 05:22:40 pm by Olive »
"I look beyond;
Flowers are not,
Nor tinted leaves.
On the sea beach
A solitary cottage stands
In the waning light
Of an autumn eve."

-Sen no Rikyū

crossfire

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2018, 08:42:26 pm »
"My will be done"
"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."
~Carl Jung

Kapalika

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2018, 06:10:53 am »
Magic has a goal?


I mean, I guess I have a goal when I decide to do much of anything... perhaps more so to me, magic is like living, you just do it, sometimes as a conscious goal sometimes not.
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Mindmaster

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 07:36:31 am »
Magic has a goal?


I mean, I guess I have a goal when I decide to do much of anything... perhaps more so to me, magic is like living, you just do it, sometimes as a conscious goal sometimes not.

Of course it does, it is a process of reinforcing the macrocosmic/microcosmic dichotomy and abstracting the user from the real operating process which is actually themselves. :D

In some ways, magic is self-deception, I reckon.

NEMO 93

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2018, 03:52:34 am »
For me I take union with the higher self/daemon etc which in terms means living your life to the fullest and expressing your self and enacting your true will.
"“I ate civilization. It poisoned me; I was defiled. And then," he added in a lower tone, "I ate my own wickedness.” -Aldous Huxley

Mindmaster

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2018, 03:06:41 am »
For me I take union with the higher self/daemon etc which in terms means living your life to the fullest and expressing your self and enacting your true will.

The philosophy of union troubles me only that implies that you exist in a dualistic dichotomy in the first place. (aka you can exist in a dualistic fashion) There is no way to prove either case (the other being non-dual), so I feel the only correct answer is to presume nothing. :D

If the goal is union, the method to achieve it would be renunciation of actions which play into the delusions of the mind that create the perceived separation. Similarly, the idea that 'I' can 'act' would have to be abolished as these would simply be reminders that you haven't reached the goal. So long as their is a 'doer' there is duality, in a nutshell.

Magick, to me, just doesn't seem to have that objective. It's all about the 'doer' , the 'doing', and why it's 'done'. 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 03:09:22 am by Mindmaster »

NEMO 93

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2018, 03:06:34 pm »
@Mindmaster  I interpret union with the HGA to be much different than union with the source.

I feel like your argument is against union with the source and I pretty much agree there. HGA/Daemon etc I agree with the view of it being your perfect self. Even if it's something external that you cant unify with such as a fetch, it's role is to guide you to your perfect self.

So when I say union with th HGA, I'm more of the lines of perfecting yourself to you reach your own individual Godhood. You are always the do-er and I like the interpretation of the HGA as the future you only seperated by time.
"“I ate civilization. It poisoned me; I was defiled. And then," he added in a lower tone, "I ate my own wickedness.” -Aldous Huxley

Mindmaster

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2018, 10:46:41 pm »
So when I say union with th HGA, I'm more of the lines of perfecting yourself to you reach your own individual Godhood. You are always the do-er and I like the interpretation of the HGA as the future you only seperated by time.

My initial commentary on this was along the lines of how most magickal acts seem to seek trivial ends. In regard to an "HGA" as a figure, how does one know that one doesn't already have this? I guess therein lies the dilemma, is it realization or seeking that matters? Perhaps, you just need to have a sit. :D

I guess if all magick acts were dedicated toward the realization of this HGA then theoretically through a process of surrender you would achieve such awareness, but it would take some philosophical rationalization that isn't inherent in western magickal systems. We'd have to surrender our acts to this HGA, admit that the HGA is the root cause of all actions, and 'I' am merely an imperfection of that ultimate state of being and any acts performed (magickal or otherwise) may impinge on reaching our perceived destination if not done with such an awareness.

Often, I find myself questioning Crowley's notions via the product of his actions in his life, it is obvious that though he played lip service to concepts like the HGA, but where he got that idea was from the east rather than the west. I don't consider myself a perfect student of the east, but some of his personality traits simply fly in the face of results along those lines. Specifically, if one has a lot of rough edges in their being it is likely that they have not absorbed such teachings. Even extremely small bits of progress along these lines will manifest in a way that people in your vicinity see them in a positive light, but they can't usually place words to what is different. My wife simply put it that I seemed more patient, but that is a gross understatement as she had no idea of the internal chatter which provoked such outward displays. :)


NEMO 93

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2018, 03:42:09 am »
@Mindmaster I mean your first speculation on HGA is exactly the popular theory on it. It's always with you. Synchronicities that lead you to where you need to go? HGA. Obtaining K&C with it is just opening up a direct line and understanding how it communicates. Union with it is not disolution of self but rather a complete strengthening of yourself to be "in tune" with your true will or whatever the hell you want to call it. Your true will isn't like some mystical destiny shit either, it's what YOU want to do once you strip off every external influence and pay attention to your own self.

HGA has nothing to do with eastern cultures which are more disolution focused. In fact, crossing the abyss the ego disolution part of Thelema that many LHP people have problems with for obvious reasons comes only after you obtain union with HGA. Rather than any philosophical opinions that differ, it's incredibly presumptous that one should do something after they acheive union with their inner most self that often guides them correctly.

HGA definitely has roots in western culture. The Daemon was originally in Ancient Greece and gave advice to the famous philosopher Socrates in Plato's Symposium. The Daemon is impersonal and communicating more in point to signs. The Greco-Magico Papyri has a ritual to get in touch with your Daemon as a familiar which is the earliest record I know of. Furthermore, in Nordic religion the soul map has a Fetch which is part of the person's soul yet different and communicates, again, through signs and synchronicity. Taking omens after a rune divination? That synchronicity is your fetch, which is with you from birth in this mythology as opposed to the Greek take. Crowley was not the first to refer to it as a Holy Guardian Angel, it was the grimoire known as The Sacred Magic of Abremalin The Mage which is written through a judeochristian yet still esoteric lens. Golden Dawn referred to it as The Genius and Crowley referred to it as the HGA as he attained it through working with Abremalin The Mage. His famous ritual for attaining it was actually never used for him but constructed as an aid to one of his students in the Abbey of Thelema that he was very impressed with. The evolution of it still continues. Luciferianism in the vein of Ford views it as "myself made perfect." Peter J. Caroll posits as false(and actually associates Aiwass with Nyarlhotep deluding Crowley) yet still instructs student to do so if they feel it's for them even though he personally doesn't believe in it. He also refers to it as Aguoides. Phil Hine has a great article on it.

" There are many speculations as to what the HGA may be, and I shall list them as I believe they all have a sense of truth and falsehood. Theories on what the HGA is generally fall into three categories: psychological processes! concepts; external entities that have an interest in the magician’s life; and entities that are somehow part of the magician in the way that shamanic totems might be. I would suggest that it is foolish to fall into one camp; using as many concepts as possible will give a more useful point of reference. If you limit yourself too much here only a certain degree of success will be possible."

"The HGA as an internal entity also includes theories of it being in some way connected with the divine manifest within humanity. One magical friend put forward a reasonable theory that connects the HGA with the Goddess Kundalini, as an ever watching, consuming flame that drives and is driven by our experience of the world."

The last quote is incredibly interesting as it could connect it to LHP ideas such as the black flame of set or the conciousness implanted into humanity by Odin that is meant to help us strengthen ourselves to godhood.

http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/ess_hga.html

Crowley was definitely a flawed human being, and you'll get no argument from me there. At all. However, to remain consistent with my own post: if I complain about it being presumptious for Crowley to know what someone should do after finding their HGA then it's equally presumptious for us to judge Crowley's actions after his HGA.

This kind of boils down to the whole do what that wilt in Thelema but also an important tenent in LHP, individualism, as well as the general "know thyself" in occultism in general. Basically, who the fuck are we to judge another person for their actions especially if they're on a spiritual path. Antinomianism falls in to line with that school of thought to which is another trademark of LHP. If you can truly know yourself intimately then no one else's opinions matter.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 03:46:04 am by King Mob »
"“I ate civilization. It poisoned me; I was defiled. And then," he added in a lower tone, "I ate my own wickedness.” -Aldous Huxley

Mindmaster

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2018, 06:26:15 am »
This kind of boils down to the whole do what that wilt in Thelema but also an important tenent in LHP, individualism, as well as the general "know thyself" in occultism in general. Basically, who the fuck are we to judge another person for their actions especially if they're on a spiritual path. Antinomianism falls in to line with that school of thought to which is another trademark of LHP. If you can truly know yourself intimately then no one else's opinions matter.

The idea that eastern paths lead to dissolution is a common mistake from western magickal circles, a yogi still has a functioning mind before and after he achieves his enlightenment. He just realizes there is more to himself than that mind-ego complex, and that mind is basically a sensory interpreting organ for their Self (atman). It is not the part that acts on the known knowledge - that's buddhi, or the unthinking mind. (It just knows what to do automatically, based on previous experiences without rationality. In essence, you could translate this as true will - it is similar.) The idea in their systems is simply to get the chattering manas (the thoughts in your head) to get out of your way and let buddhi do the job. My criticism stems mostly from this misunderstanding of the process, nothing is lost or gained, just realized or optimized. :D Simply put, there is no difference between the western concepts and the eastern in goal - simply different terminology. A wise person once said, "Language is used to obscure the thoughts, and thoughts are used to obscure reality." :D

I judge Crowley's actions based on the fact that they were mostly harmful to himself or others, as is plain to see. In that light, it's hard to consider him wise at all regardless of the intelligence he seemed to occasionally manifest. When one picks someone to learn from, it is quite reasonable to ask, "Do I want to be this person?" I think most people would answer emphatically no, especially in his case. Regardless of that, I think he was pretty good at presenting material even if he didn't actually absorb it.

Eastern religions give multiple paths to the goal, dharma (for non-seekers), or realization. Realization would be equivalent to antinomianism in the truest sense, because in the extended sense what is right for the Atman to partake in is beyond morality even though moral codes are founded as a product of realization. (That's to say, realized seers in all religions came up with them.) In essence, they provide a cheat sheet to not make things worse while you sort it out, but eventually you'll probably figure out they're one in the same. :D Detaching from the ego desires just leads to dharma naturally, so it is a way of presenting the concepts to the intellect before you've done the other work and know yourself what to do. It is much similar to the way a parent tells a child not to do things before they know why. The goal of the eastern systems is to work away from the 'child mind' of following the rules, and learning enough about your Self to know why they were there in the first place.

NEMO 93

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2018, 07:14:47 am »
No offense meant but I find judging someone solely by their actions completely useless and asking if someone else is someone you want to be is a horrible measure to judge anything. For one, wanting to be anyone else than yourself is a waste of the person you are.

Secondly, plenty of bad people with good ideas. Ghandi was a racist prick who sexually took advantage of his followers. Should I eschew nonvoilent protest because of this? Neitzsche never became the Ubermensch he so badly wanted in the world but should I ignore his logical arguments of which he is one of the most accomplished men in the field because of this? I mean, Plato was a lot more respectable of a person but his work and philosophy is terrible due to it's antiquity. It's blinded by superstitions of BC times. 

Furthermore, assigning the concept of harm is arbirtray. You have 5 apples, I steal 3 apples. I hurt your feelings, wronged you and did something considered ethically wrong. But have you not learned to keep a close eye on your apples cause people can be dicks? It's a simple example but I'm esentially talking about the functionalism theory in sociology but a lot of people in the occult try to remove moral judgement from things so it's compatible.

IMO, when it comes to feeling "harmed" or "wronged", it's typically someone's false ego talking and refusing to acknowledge their own part and what they can learn from it or the good in something.  When I saw false ego, I don't mean the good ego, I mean the base desires.

And if you're referrring to the observer or sammadhi in eastern path, HGA is a completely different expeirence that's similar but a lot stronger. I suppose the concept of dissolution depends on which eastern path you're talking about. Buddha was quite adamant about detachment which shuns the material world which shows an inclination towards dissolution and a rejection wordly things, in a rather extreme way. It's not so much about effiecency as it's a total refusal to play the game. Buddhism didn't really become more along the lines of how you're describing it until it become mixed with Daoism for political and geographic reasons as far as I know. I know a lot of Buddha's practical advice such as the dhammaparda were more words of wisdom for common folk and not representative of the path of those who followed him.

I'm also not quite sure why you say Crowley didn't absorb it? If we take behavior out of it, what indicates that he didn't absorb it? His diaries show a extremely consistent practice with all of the systems absorbed. Also, who are you to understand his actions and their effects? I'm honestly not meaning it in a smart way, just saying that shit isn't black and white and trying to reduce it so while trying to understand something as complex as the human brain, let alone the world simultaneously, is a futile task that creates no objective truth.

I'm gonna put it this way. Jim Jones started a cult, he grew it incredibly huge. It ended with the massacre of what? A thousand people? This is a bad person. But wait a second. He was practically solely responsible for desegration in his hometown and eventually state. When he started to get famous, and not for bad reasons according to the public, he had a pretty strong involvment in certain politics and progressed stuff. However, he's still a mass murderer, drug addict, and rapist. Horrible person but progressed society and did good things. It's really easy to demonize a human completely and say "he's a sociopath" or "he's evil" but it's wrong. Like, we haven't even solved the nature vs nurture debate and psychology is a relatively new science still and we know a lot now but it's always changing, there's always updates to the DSM. He did good stuff, he did bad stuff, we can't really describe the reasoning of another human being. But we can say humans in general do good things for good reasons, bad things for bad reasons, bad things for good reasons, and good things for bad reason. Most probably do all of these over their lifetime but we will ever be able to say which action is which.

To demonize a person, is to create an "us vs them" mentality that makes you think you're incapable of anything like that. And in daily life, you probably are yet capable of some kind of bad stuff. Say society collapsed, every single one of us would do stuff we considered evil to survive. But here's the thing, in that scenario: none of it would be evil. It would become a new social normal, and it would cause pain, but there would be no survival of the human race without it. And you can't blame a person for trying to survive. It's built into every biological organism. You're hurt when you get the flu, but those germs are just trying to survive and they increase the immune system.

I also realize what I'm doing is justifying stuff to be good, you can do that about anything. You can also justify anything to be bad. Which means all this is just useless subjective speculation, and it's impossible to know what things *really* are. Which makes judging each other pretty pointless squable. For all we know, Crowley achieved what he wanted in his lifetime. He's pretty accomplished. He harmed people around him, sure, and most would agree he's not a "good" person but LHP adherents should not agree with herd mentality just because it's the conventional notion. I don't know, I don't really care about subjective ethics. I just want to know if they're accomplished in their field and do good work. The feelings of long dead people are useless to me and don't even exist anymore, at least in the material world. Sure, the french revolution caused a lot grief and pain but that's a hundred years ago and my country never would have been founded if the french revolution hadn't inspired the founding fathers of America. I therefore wouldn't be able to be in this country, or this state, where I have great opportunities. From where I'm standing, that's pretty good to me and those people haven't mattered for hundreds of years.

I'd also say in the case of Crowley, a lot of work he published and taught came way before him sometimes by hundreds and hundred of years. That's be like denouncing Marxism because of Stalinism. Stalin was incredibly bad and there is a link and some similarities but Marxism is a completely different philosophy with an end goal, there's criticisms of it but they're mostly different criticisms than stalinism. If you want to simplify it to redistributing resources than that'd be like judging native american tribes and ancient egyptian societies because of Stalin since they collected their resources way before it and it's a builing black of that philosophy in a way but it's completely different.

One last remark one asking yourself if you want to be like someone to learn from them. Robin Williams was an amazing comedian who left a legacy, he's a great place to learn from. I don't want to be a person who kills myself, however. I'd love to learn guitar from Jimmi Hendrix but I don't want to be a drug addict. David Bowie was probably one of the greatest stage performers and creative artist who was able to do film as well as music but I don't think androgyny and cocaine is my bag but holy shit, I'd love to learn how to perform like him.

If we're talking about harm to self, what is harm to self? GG Allin regularaly cut himself, ate his shit, and broke bottles over his head on stage yet it brought him success. Iggy Pop is a much less extreme example who can be considred a good person unlike GG Allin.

This whole rant isn't so much a defense of Crowley as it's an existentialist rant from me because there is nothing in the universe is apparant. If it's apparant, you haven't examined it from enough angles, or thought long enough, and you're accepting something at face value in some way. I highly recommend studying conventional philosophy in various branches to anyone on a occult path as it helps to cut a lot our own bullshit out which is a theme of any occult path, it just digs a lot deeper and faster.
"“I ate civilization. It poisoned me; I was defiled. And then," he added in a lower tone, "I ate my own wickedness.” -Aldous Huxley

VenusSatanas

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2018, 06:38:47 pm »
For me the main goal of magic has been to "align myself with the current", because for me, I feel, that when I am within the "current", when things line up, and there is synchronicity, the act of magic is effortless..when this is so, then it becomes clear to me that I am fulfilling my purpose.

When I was younger, I felt that by using magic, I was trying to control everything in my environment. That became frustrating and exhausting - If I wanted to accomplish A then I would have to manipulate B,C and D as well, and it was a circus.

Nowadays, I mostly use magic to keep the balance in my environment. Be it white or black or a bit of grey its all for a greater purpose.
I am ~ I will ~ I create

Kapalika

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2018, 09:12:15 am »
Magic has a goal?


I mean, I guess I have a goal when I decide to do much of anything... perhaps more so to me, magic is like living, you just do it, sometimes as a conscious goal sometimes not.

Of course it does, it is a process of reinforcing the macrocosmic/microcosmic dichotomy and abstracting the user from the real operating process which is actually themselves. :D

In some ways, magic is self-deception, I reckon.


Funny; most often  I use magic to reach altered states that bring me closer to nonduality, not further away from it.


It's a way of living for me, since I look inwards towards the self, towards the Shiva-Shakti.
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra

"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Setamontet

Re: The main goal and path of magic?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2018, 03:13:06 pm »
"What is the main goal and path of Magic?"

From a Black Magical perspective, all Magic is about change, that is its goal - and all Magic begins in the mind.  The path of Magic begins with a purpose, and that purpose is to reshape the world or Universe in accordance with the individual Magician's Will, to remake the cosmos in the image of our own thoughts and ideas. 

This is why it is good that there are many of us disruptors and causers of change with our own unique ideas and perspectives, else the new re-created Universe would be of only one mind, one will, one viewpoint.  Hence, boring, uninspiring, lack of imagination and individual perspective and unique understanding.

I prefer the Path of Black Magic, the Path of Darkness which is the realm of the mysteries, the secrets, the unknown, wherein is the universe of infinite potential, where lies the eternal journey, exploration, continual goal setting and achievement. We all have within ourselves our own individual hidden truths of Being.  The goal and path of the Black Arts (the Setian Xeper) is to uncover and to ultimately become the very embodiment and most complete and supreme manifestation of these truths.  Which develops spiritual strength and fortitude -- to perpetually Remanifest them within our Self, Life Work, and our Will to Magic upon the outer objective universe.

Xeper and Remanifest.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 06:59:56 pm by Setamontet »

"O learn the Law, my brothers of the night - the Great Law and the Lesser Law.
The Great Law brings the balance and doth persist without mercy.
The Lesser Law abideth as the key, and the Shining Trapezoid is the door!"  Anton LaVey