Author Topic: Fastest Method of Invocation & Evocation thus far  (Read 129 times)

Setamorphosis

Fastest Method of Invocation & Evocation thus far
« on: January 05, 2018, 12:32:59 pm »
When it comes to the occult, aside from practicing & researching, there are two things I like to do:

1. Oppose dogma

2. Experiment

On one side of the spectrum, you'll hear from ceremonial magicians who are extremely superstitious that you need to do everything by the book, and that you need to perform all these complex and elaborate rituals in order to come into contact with a metaphysical entity.

On the other, you have magicians (such as chaos magicians and magicians over at Become a Living God) who claim that anything goes. "Nothing is true; everything is permitted."

Through my workings, I have come to realize that the latter category of magicians is correct. But, unlike most magicians, I am taking a step further.

I say that rituals are not necessary. I say that trance state is not necessary either (it helps but it's not a must). I say that evocation as it's commonly understood is bunk!

Metaphysical entities are Platonic Forms. They do not have a location; they don't reside in some mystical kingdom and get teleported when you start performing a ritual to evoke them. Rather, the metaphysical entities are spaceless and eternal. For as long as you have a connection with a particular Form, that Form can be interacted at all times, whenever. They're everywhere, and nowhere.

So let's take the Prince of Darkness as an example. He is the Form of Consciousness, The Higher Mind. You are in constant connection with him, by definition. All you have to do in order to get in touch with him is think about him. Now, though I've said trance is not necessary, focus is a must.

Sit down, close your eyes, and start thinking about the Prince of Darkness. Think of the things you associate him with. You'll probably start feeling emotions related to the Prince of Darkness. What do you feel? Express your intention to speak with him, and he shall come.

Because when you think of the Prince of Darkness, he thinks of you back.

This also applies to other Forms & Principles, too.

So for example, I want to communicate with Thor. I think about him, I immerse myself in the idea of his strength. And Thor speaks.

As for evocation, if you really want to actually experience the entity outside of yourself, you could a black mirror (I my laptop or phone), and stare at it whilst having the idea of the entity you wish to commune with. It will happen.

I've tested these methods, and they worked. So I ask you, "What good is being able to communicate with the gods, if you can't talk to them whenever you need? What is good about relying on a complex method when you can do it simply." I get the appeal of theatrics and psychodrama, and sure, I'd like to do some dramatic rituals too, but we shouldn't rely on them.

It's so simple to communicate with the gods, all you have to do is show them that you're willing to talk to them.
"I know that I hung on a windy tree nine long nights, wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin, myself to myself, on that tree of which no man knows from where its roots run."

- Odin

Olive

Re: Fastest Method of Invocation & Evocation thus far
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2018, 04:32:12 pm »
Allow me to make a counterpoint to the notion of rituals being totally unnecessary. Note that I'm not in the first camp you mentioned, that specific invocation need to be followed to the tee, with no deviation or the result will be failure. Ultimately the second camp is correct, but I think your step further is a step too far.

When you go to see a horror movie in the theater, you pay for the ticket, maybe even get a few snacks - because you know it is fiction. It's entertainment, and you're here to enjoy it. And yet when the monster comes out, you still jump. Why do you jump when you know it's not real? Well, because the movie has been coming in through the senses. You have been receiving all this audio-visual input from the moment you sat down. This allows it to get past the conscious mind and speak directly to subconscious mind, which reacts as though it's real. Because sensory input basically is real to the subconscious mind.

Let's look at another example. If you've ever been poor or struggling to get by, you know that when you have to go spend a lot of money, when you have to go pay a bill or make a big purchase, it hurts. You cringe a little on the inside, even though you had no choice but to do it. Why does it hurt? Well, because in our society money is this very potent symbol of security - AKA having what you need. It hurts to spend that money because you have this feeling of lack within you, like you don't have enough to get by. There is a technique people use to overcome these feelings, called money realization. Every day they spend several minutes closing their eyes, and visualize counting out stacks of money. Not just visualizing but 'feel-ualizing'; they feel the texture of the money, smell it, etc. They count it out in stacks until they have made a pile of several thousands. And then they just go about their day.

Well, what happened? Nothing changed, right? They might even be more concerned with money since they just spent so much time thinking about it, right? Well, no actually. In fact now when they go to pay that bill they don't feel the same anxiety about it, they just do what has to be done and get it over with. Because now they aren't carrying that feeling of lack so viscerally. They saw plenty of money. Touched it, smelled it, counted it out. And to the subconscious mind, that was basically real. So this practice allows people to feel like they have enough even when things are just as tight.

Now that's a simple example, but what these techniques do is control and train, even manipulate the subconscious mind to perceive or accept another perspective on your reality and experience. Ceremonial rituals have the same purpose, except to perform them you create images and sounds and feelings in the physical world. This alleviates the burden on the imagination and allows for much more complex inputs. Now you can call that pyschodrama, but notice it's actually much more than that. Especially when we're talking about complex energy states (or in other words dealing with complex entities) - you're not going to just think your way to that state. The whole point is that it goes past the thinking mind.

I'm sure you don't need to go conduct an elaborate ritual at any point when you want to be in touch with Odin, or Thor. And I don't need to take an hour out of my day to get in touch with Lunar energies. But it's important to make the distinction that this is possible because we are already practitioners that have worked with these things before. In essence, we have already trained our subconscious minds. But if we wanted to access a new state or speak with a new being, we'll have to find a way to reach that point and it won't be by thinking. Because we're totally unfamiliar with what we're looking for.

Finally, I wanted to mention that what you are advocating for isn't actually complete abandonment of evocation or ritual - but instead you are conducting the rites within your own mind, or with very simple materials. (The black mirror of your phone/labtop). You said you think of the things you associate with him, which is essentially visualizing powerful symbols of your entity. This is similar to setting out certain items in ceremonial settings.

This type of technique works well for me also when it comes to invoking the Immaculate One, but would it have worked so well before I was familiar with the energy states I was aiming for? Perhaps not. And certainly the rituals I perform helped me get to the point where I can access what I'm after with visualizations and fine-tuned receptiveness. But if you are a new practitioner, or working with a certain state for the first time, I think these techniques can skew results.

I'm sure what I'm saying isn't news to you, Setamorphosis. And don't take this as an argument against you, I just wanted to try and expand on this for people who may be newer because there's subtlety there.


TL;DR - Rituals and evocation are not in fact bunk but can be very useful tools. At advanced levels and with experience with your entity/state you can replace these ceremonies with ones conducted entirely in your own mind. Once you know the prince of darkness you don't need to do anything over the top to get in touch with him, but the occasional ritual can still help reinforce this communion and keep your subconscious mind (if you call it that) from getting rusty.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 04:40:04 pm by Olive »

Setamorphosis

Re: Fastest Method of Invocation & Evocation thus far
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2018, 04:49:32 pm »
You have misunderstood me. I never said rituals are completely useless. I said they are unnecessary in order to contact an entity. You can contact an entity without a ritual. Rituals obviously have an important theatrical & psychodramatic effect. It can help one achieve a particular state of mind if they really wish to do so. But these aren't requirements in order to communicate with entities.

And when I said evocation is bunk, I mean this:

Evocation as it's commonly understood is bunk (which is what I said, but let's analyze this deeper). Evocation is commonly understood as the summoning of a spirit externally from yourself, as in making them manifest before you. You, with the right tools which have power to the, are calling forth a spirit from another realm, and it's "materializing" before you.

This is bunk for the following reasons:

Entities are not spirits. They are Platonic Forms.

Entities are spaceless and timeless. They don't come from some fantastical kingdom into our own world. No, they're in our world already, as they govern existence.

Tools themselves have no power. They have as much as power as you allow them to. That is to say, you associate the items with certain things and in that sense they have power. But aside from that, items don't have inherent power.

Quote
But if we wanted to access a new state or speak with a new being, we'll have to find a way to reach that point and it won't be by thinking. Because we're totally unfamiliar with what we're looking for.

Fair point. But, I have, as I've said, tested this out. I tried contacting entities that I've never worked with before. It seemed to have worked for the most part (not 100% success rate; I had some misses, but I think the successes outweigh them. I had a greater success ratio with Odin, Thor, and Azazel).

« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 11:50:58 pm by pi_ramesses »
"I know that I hung on a windy tree nine long nights, wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin, myself to myself, on that tree of which no man knows from where its roots run."

- Odin

Olive

Re: Fastest Method of Invocation & Evocation thus far
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2018, 05:10:14 pm »
You have misunderstood me. I never said rituals are completely useless. I said they are unnecessary in order to contact an entity. You can contact an entity without a ritual. Rituals are obviously have an important theatrical & psychodramatic effect. It can help one achieve a particular state of mind if they really wish to do so. But these aren't requirements in order to communicate with entities.

I didn't totally misunderstand you, I just wanted to expand upon my interpretation of what was being said and what the reality was in practice because the language was somewhat ambiguous.

This is bunk for the following reasons:

Entities are not spirits. They are Platonic Forms.

Entities are spaceless and timeless. They don't come from some fantastical kingdom into our own world. No, they're in our world already, as they govern existence.

Tools themselves have no power. They have as much as power as you allow them to. That is to say, you associate the items with certain things and in that sense they have power. But aside from that, items don't have inherent power.

The first two are metaphysical assumptions which, while sound and pretty much in line with my views, shouldn't be used to prove an argument - especially to someone who doesn't have that same understanding. The last point is well said and well taken. Some items do have a kind of 'inherent' power (such as money), but that is due to the shared cultural paradigm most of us are brought up in and nothing else. The money realization practice would mean nothing to a tribal nomad, but for most modern people money is almost unshakably powerful and meaningful.

Fair point. But, I have, as I've said, tested this out. I tried contacting entities that I've never worked with before. It seemed to have worked for the most part (not 100% success rate; I had some misses, but I think the successes outweigh them. I had a greater success ratio with Odin, Thor, and Azazel).

I believe this can work even with something new, especially if you're experienced and have strong visualization prowess - but it seems that it would be extremely liable to projection. When you're talking about an entity you're not familiar with, it's hard to really know if there was success or failure. Especially when you are feeding the subconscious many powerful symbols that you probably have many preconceived notions about. It seems like this method would be equivalent to blind channeling when you use it on unknown entities. (Which can still be useful!) I'll have to experiment with it more to see if this holds up.

Setamorphosis

Re: Fastest Method of Invocation & Evocation thus far
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2018, 05:16:16 pm »
Quote
but it seems that it would be extremely liable to projection. When you're talking about an entity you're not familiar with, it's hard to really know if there was success or failure.

Which is why you test the entities. It's not the same as blind channeling. By understanding the underlying archetype - the underlying Platonic Form - the magician is able to connect with a desired entity.

You can test the entity by asking them to give you a number, and use the gematria calculator/calculations to see if there are any synchronicities. If there are, you have a hit. If not, you failed.

There are other ways you can go about it.

1. Asking for an astral signature. An entity cannot write a false name

2. Asking the entities you work with to confirm whether or not the entity you summoned is the real deal.

I use all of these methods in a single session.
"I know that I hung on a windy tree nine long nights, wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin, myself to myself, on that tree of which no man knows from where its roots run."

- Odin

King Mob

Re: Fastest Method of Invocation & Evocation thus far
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2018, 06:12:37 pm »
While we can't say for sure what entities are or aren't, let's assume they are external.

We're forgetting as above, so below. Now, this is as much scientific to state this as it is to state the nature of entities so let me off my interpretation.

The microcosmic world exists, there may be macrocosmic entities. But if I literally never heard of Zeus, for example, and went on living my life as if he never existed- he would not exist to me. If the whole world forgets about him, then what happens? There are Gods we've forgotten about- thanks to the Roman's kinda crappy way of documenting foriegn gods. And I don't mean ones that Christians demonized, we can often find evidence there- I mean of ones like the Guals where they say "their god is similar to *insert roman god*" So there is some type of mutual relationship between above and below.

Plus, if you truly ascribe to the Platonic form theory than you know that you can not -know- the entity, only have your own interpretation of them which would in turn create your microcosmic version based on unverified personal gnosis. Think of it as reading a book, you will picture the characters to look a certain way- and that's true in your microcosm but only there, the actual book its self is what it is in the macrocosm. Unless, you create a painting of said character and post it online where it gets popular, then it fuels the macrocosmic understanding to some degree.

Evocation may be described as calling forth from your self,  which is true to a sense. Ever wonder why you use both the hexagram and pentagram of solomon in an goetic evocation? It's to declare mastery of both the macrocosm and microcosm. As above, so below is the operative theory of evocation. Sure, you are calling on an external demon but this is so that you can bind an internal demon to your service to have it work for you- and reap the psychological benefit. 

It's like Jungian psychology, once you confront it and accept it as part of you- it now becomes a part of you and make it whole. This is why one evokes and binds the 4 kings after talking to their HGA in the Abramelin operation. The brighter you glow, the longer and darker your shadow. Regardless of if you're LHP or RHP, balance and acceptance of your shadow is neseccary for self mastery. In fact, most demonalotry arguments against evocation state that by evoking it they're not accepting it as part of there self.

I disagree with this obviously considering the meaning of the instruments used- but I would say any proper evocation or invocation considers it equally as a part of yourself and part of the macrocosm, from the proper perspective at least in retrospect or subconciously. It is nesecarry to alter your paradigm to fit your goal, at all times, and you'll never get anywhere near the truth of "why" no matter how hard you try. So why evocation? To get a more objective look, than you would otherwise at both the microcosm or macrocosm. If it's deep in your repressed subconcious, like a personal demon, than it may need work coming out. And indicating it that you have no problem separating it from your microcosm for an evocation threatens both its space in the microcosm as well as the macrocosm. Make note here that a personal demon is vastly different than say; a goetic demon. Although, I suppose there could be some overlap.

But hey, this is all operating on theory as is everything- but I would like to think I gave a logical argument to why as above, so below may be truth and even if it wasn't, theory of evocation was built around that statement so it's relevant to the topic.
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

Setamorphosis

Re: Fastest Method of Invocation & Evocation thus far
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2018, 06:27:30 pm »
Quote
Plus, if you truly ascribe to the Platonic form theory than you know that you can not -know- the entity, only have your own interpretation of them which would in turn create your microcosmic version based on unverified personal gnosis. Think of it as reading a book, you will picture the characters to look a certain way- and that's true in your microcosm but only there, the actual book its self is what it is in the macrocosm. Unless, you create a painting of said character and post it online where it gets popular, then it fuels the macrocosmic understanding to some degree.

This is true, but you can have an idea of what the Platonic Form represents. Or what the archetype represents.

And while it is true that you are interacting with an interpretation (or an incarnation of the form, if you'd like), the point still remains that you can interact with said entity without the ritual tools, without the theatrics, etc.

Symbols, and tools do not have inherent meanings to themselves. Because if they did, then there would be only a few methods of evocation and invocation. But this is not the case. Many practitioners don't do things by the book (myself included) and they have the same, if not better, results than those who do things by the book.

I encourage you to attempt to cast a spell without a ritual, or contact an entity, and see how that turns out for you. For me, it seems to work.

Also, I find the concept of "unverified personal gnosis" a bit silly. If other magicians report having the same / similar experience, then it's a "verified personal gnosis," no?

As far as I know, there are magicians who do perform magic without any complex or elaborate rituals. Some cybermagicians, who adhere to the Information Model, fall into this category.

So, my advice is to try this out, if it works, it works. And hten it's "verified personal gnosis." If it doesn't, I may encourage others to try it out, and if it works for them, then it's verified.

Again, I really dislike the concept of "unverified personal gnosis." It doesn't really mean much.
"I know that I hung on a windy tree nine long nights, wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin, myself to myself, on that tree of which no man knows from where its roots run."

- Odin

King Mob

Re: Fastest Method of Invocation & Evocation thus far
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2018, 09:03:11 pm »
It's unverified in the scientific sense of the words. There's many variables there, and you could only verify it if the group of magicians got together and presented their magickal diaries/records of relevant entity cross-referenced it, and the results, and came to a consensus. Until then, it's unverified and you should take what people say with a grain of salt. It's not true for anyone.

I've cast spells with nothing but intent and/or minor astral visions before. It's possible. The point of the melodrama of ritual is to clear your mind of all that is not the form. That rune video I posted a while back makes a good point- when you meditate you're either getting what you think and what to think the rune means or what the rune actually means. You can definitely invoke or evoke with little tools if you want. I'm not asking that. I'm asking what are the benefits vs the cons.

From my perspective, a little bit of effort is vastly worth confirm your subocnious or the form/entity is what youre communicating rather than your own preconcieved impressions of the entity. And these aren't devoid of meaning. You need to reverse engineer the rituals, and look at effects. And I mean more than if the entity showed up or not, or appeared to show up. There's also a deep difference between the first two because it's easy for one to delude one's self hence why its hard to verify personal gnosis- unless you compare magickal records that are jotted down with the scientific method in mind meaning you record all variables. But the effect also entials how they interact with you, how long it takes, how short, was it pleasant; unpleasant. A lot of christians can report being haunted by demons, that's their personal gnosis and it's not correct just because a lot of them want to believe it or do believe it.

As far as spellcasting goes, for me the variable needed to be increased for lack of ritual is the emotion put into it, high emotion astral casts makes up for the simplicity. While Peter J Carrol's equation for spell casting is pseudo-scienetific at best, and there's no way to really plug numbers into the equation cause you can't verify gnosis and such, I find it a handy thing to keep in mind, at certain times. Here's billy brujo's video on it, he explains in the first 5 minutes. I can't recall which book I read it in. It does seem to gel with how people construct most spells, however. I just look at the math as a blind to lazy people; and overcomplicating a simple statement.



I'll try to see if I can find the full explanation of the equation if one is interested.

As far as ritual tools, obviously then melodrama they have specific meaning. A seal would be a link to an entity using that above equation. Now, in the aspect of a goetic evocation; names mean squat shit. Lon Milo Duquette as the best book on the Goetia; ultimately the significance of the triangle is turning it into something that exists outside of your microcosm- represented by a circle- I've used an octagon and had some result. Sure, you can do it quicker and simpler- but how does that change the relationship dynamic between you and the entity? How does it effect your magick?

If you can have really strong gnosis, then it ultimately doesn't matter- but a single stray thought can cause a disastrous fuck up if you haven't trained your mind well enough- and no matter how you train, you have some bad days- but you should know when youre having bad days and need psychodrama to increase your gnosis. I also belive that circle is to contain energy- it does have the significance of shutting your mind out from the outside world- but I expirimented with LHP circle casting and the energy difference between that and similar rituals is night and day. In fact, my astral technique; while not circle casting involves recognizing my microcosm and its boundaries.

I agree that you don't need tools- hell, Draconian rituals only use a single chalice and does everything else by will, gestures, and voice alone and it's really strong. But I think it's wrong to say they have no meaning or signifiacnes, they do. Most things do when we get to the realms of a subconcious. Sure, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar but at least in magick; most time anything phallic is a dick. There's a reason for that, we're getting closer to the land of symbols in meaning. In fact, I found my astral method improved when I used existing occult symbols- such as fire triangle to symbolize my will.

Since I'm talking chaos magick here, peter j. carrol basically flat out states what the 4 elemental tools actually represents and says they don't matter, you can use an atheric version of it. The point of repeated use of tools is to build up your energy into those tools(if you ascribe to a energy model, if you subscribe to psychological then you are making it holy by making that association) but you could use an atheric/imaginative form of said tool and it'd work just the same (or like I just mentioned, the relevant symbol.)

Sure, you can do it quicky. But just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. And that goes for big slow rituals for something that doesn't require it either. I think it's important to analyze your intent, look at your toolbox and find the best way to do it, then do it that way, and keep growing your toolbox.

I think what you're describing is a shamanic method which can be just as relevant and powerful as any other method. In fact, I've had some of my strongest invocatons when using seidr/shamanism to get in touch with Freyja- it works EXTREMELY well with Norse Gods. On the other hand, I've had King Paimon's presence be incredibly stronger in the triangle than through standard demonalotry- and I had a much more pleasant success using the triangle rather than a success at a cost with demonalotry invocation. Again, this is unverified as there's variables- I'd have to keep switching between demonalotry invocation and evocation with the same entity and than analyze the data if I wanted to say for sure which version is better.

It is worth nothing that Lon Milo Duqeutte's introduction Goetia gives the lisence of depart as "and be ready to come when I call you wether it be in the triangle or not" indicating that demonalotry method is entirely possible to use and may be beneficial down the line. Still, some energies will take advantage of you hence playing it safe with an evocation first.

Most people say you can only invoke gods and not evoke them, but I had a Godess turn in invocation into an evokation which was....odd. It was definitely her as I was able to verify the knowledge she gave me which could only come from her.

Basically tools arent important but symoblism is. Tools have a agreed up meaning and symbolism making them meaningful.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 12:07:57 am by pi_ramesses »
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

Setamorphosis

Re: Fastest Method of Invocation & Evocation thus far
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2018, 09:23:30 pm »
Perhaps I am indeed biased because I am working with the Norse gods.

Good criticism, thanks. I'll have to think about this and do more experiments.
"I know that I hung on a windy tree nine long nights, wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin, myself to myself, on that tree of which no man knows from where its roots run."

- Odin

King Mob

Re: Fastest Method of Invocation & Evocation thus far
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2018, 10:14:47 pm »
BTW I don't mean to discount unverified personal gnosis. It's incredibly useful as long as you know how to approach. Sometimes, I would trust my UPG over many articles that have a consensus to be honest.
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

Onyx

Re: Fastest Method of Invocation & Evocation thus far
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2018, 04:46:10 pm »
I agree that it is not necessary to perform a specific type of working to apprehend a particular deity. I also agree that ritual implements have no power in and of themselves, but think they should be treated with a certain level of importance, as M. Aquino suggests in Black Magic:

Quote
A ceremonial dagger or knife will not be the worse for being used to carve a turkey at dinner, but in your SU you will never regard it in quite the same way if you suffer it to be used for mundane purposes.

Ritualizing one way or another helps to maintain focus and a sense of contrast: coming into contact with and manipulation of the OU helps me understand my place in the universe, i.e. "doing vs. fantasizing". I'm not much into long drawn-out rituals from books, and though I have a general formula I prefer to keep things relatively simple otherwise.

The mention of Platonic Forms is important (to me) because in that context transcendental deities are only as real as what they represent. I'll take it a bit further and say I believe they are specific manifestations of the Prince of Darkness, because it requires one conscious being to have understanding of another.

@Olive makes a good point about the effects of sensory input on the subconscious mind, even if that input is obtained through repetitive visualization.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 05:28:07 pm by Onyx »
Never again will I follow, I will choose my own path.


xx
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