Author Topic: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?  (Read 452 times)

Kapalika

Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« on: November 25, 2017, 07:07:43 am »
edit/note: reason I thought of this was actually a conversation I had yesterday where it came up but it had been on my mind a while too tho

It seems very bizarre to me that anyone would call themselves a Satanist and yet be against, or not believe in the physical Universe. If we are exalting our nature an as much animal as spiritual we have to recognize that we are material beings living in a very real place that isn't just a dreamscape. After all so much of what defines Satan and Satanism is of this world. The Christians, as wrong as they usually are, were at least (although by design) right in calling Satan "The Prince and powers of the air" and "Satan, who is the god of this world". LaVey, who popularized self-identifying religious Satanism personified this as it being "carnal" and inverting the traditionally spiritual pentagram to flip spirituality on it's head. He and many others before and after him also identified the self-denying of the anti-cosmic religions by ascribing pleasure and simply being alive as "sinful" or "unnatural". They wanted to make out the natural and this world to be evil so that people would recoil from it towards their imaginary not-universe plane of "heaven".

(pardon this next part if I make any generalization or misscharacterization, I'm not terribly familiar with Gnosticism).

In my opinion anti-cosmic Satanism has more in common with Gnosticism and Gnosticism to me is just one small step away from Christianity. They already have this undesirable, "evil" Universe they want to escape from. They actually believe that the false god created this world and is the devil. Just like the Christian they wanted to escape and go to a heaven of sorts because this place is just so "evil".

//end disclaimer section///

Anyways to me you can't have Satan without this "world", this Universe. Satan as far as I can ever tell is pro-Cosmic. From the moment I found Satanism pantheism just made sense, I have a hard time imagining what Satan is like without a tie to this Universe and the material. Even more generally just in a translation of the Hebrew "opposition" that's basically how everything in the Universe functions.. action and reaction, opposing forces. Counteracting frictions. It's why the sun's radiation pressure keeps the gravity from collapsing it and the gravity stops the pressure from ripping it apart. It's why when I take a step my feet can propel me and it's the movement and opposing forces of nature and elements that allow a series of resistant materials and conductive logic gates to interact to allow me to type and send this post.

So I don't see how "opposition", or Satan, whatever you want to call it... how it can be anything but cosmic.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 11:19:32 am by pi_ramesses »
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My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra (Left Hand path)
"God and the individual are one, to realize this is the essence of Shaivism.” - Lakshman Joo

Setamorphosis

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2017, 07:30:48 am »
You have to understand that no one holds a monopoly over Satanism. There many sects and interpretations of Satanism. You can always do research on a particular sect, see what they are about, try to understand their point of view, and never think about them again if it's not your cup of tea.

I think you are too emotional and taking everything too close to heart for your own good tbh.
"Darkness is just light turned inside out."
  --Beelzebub

Liu

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2017, 07:49:56 am »
It seems very bizarre to me that anyone would call themselves a Satanist and yet be against, or not believe in the physical Universe. If we are exalting our nature an as much animal as spiritual we have to recognize that we are material beings living in a very real place that isn't just a dreamscape. After all so much of what defines Satan and Satanism is of this world. The Christians, as wrong as they usually are, were at last (although by design) right in calling Satan "The Prince and powers of the air" and "Satan, who is the god of this world". LaVey, who popularized self-identifying religious Satanism personified this as it being "carnal" and inverting the traditionally spiritual pentagram to flip spirituality on it's head. He and many others before and after him also identified the self-denying of the anti-cosmic religions by ascribing pleasure and simply being alive as "sinful" or "unnatural". They wanted to make out the natural and this world to be evil so that people would recoil from it towards their imaginary not-universe plane of "heaven".
My issues with anti-cosmic Satanism go into a similar direction. If we take away all "cosmic" aspects of ourselves, what would be left? Pure consciousness, maybe? How could that even have any specific will when it has no definite properties?

But it doesn't seem to be a self-denying approach. The goal is still self-deification (in any of its many definitions). And while carnality seems to be seen more as a tool for fulfilling one's spiritual goals, it's not exactly shunned, either.

I don't really understand yet how it's supposed to work metaphysically, but the methods at least are not really different from other forms of Satanism.

Nevertheless, I really like it from a psychological/emotional point of view. And I suspect that all that edgy "we want to destroy the world"-stuff is ultimately a tool to get oneself to do the work. At least to me it's most useful when used in that manner.

Basically it's about aiming for a higher goal (namely the absolute freedom of lawless chaos) that might be actually out of reach to use the momentum to at least get closer to reaching individual freedom on this plane of existence.

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(pardon this next part if I make any generalization or misscharacterization, I'm not terribly familiar with Gnosticism).

In my opinion anti-cosmic Satanism has more in common with Gnosticism and Gnosticism to me is just one small step away from Christianity. They already have this undesirable, "evil" Universe they want to escape from. They actually believe that the false god created this world and is the devil. Just like the Christian they wanted to escape and go to a heaven of sorts because this place is just so "evil".

//end disclaimer section///
Yes, anti-cosmic Satanism pretty much is gnostic Satanism, the two terms seem to be interchangeable in most contexts. Whether that makes it close to Christianity depends on what aspects of which version of either you compare. For example, there are also pretty pro-cosmic forms of Christianity, and the two religions certainly differ in most of their methods.

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Anyways to me you can't have Satan without this "world", this Universe. Satan as far as I can ever tell is pro-Cosmic. From the moment I found Satanism pantheism just made sense, I have a hard time imagining what Satan is like without a tie to this Universe and the material. Even more generally just in a translation of the Hebrew "opposition" that's basically how everything in the Universe functions.. action and reaction, opposing forces. Counteracting frictions. It's why the sun's radiation pressure keeps the gravity from collapsing it and the gravity stops the pressure from ripping it apart. It's why when I take a step my feet can propel me and it's the movement and opposing forces of nature and elements that allow a series of resistant materials and conductive logic gates to interact to allow me to type and send this post.

So I don't see how "opposition", or Satan, whatever you want to call it... how it can be anything but cosmic.
I have been thinking about panentheistic Satanism lately, and that might be a possible way of how both pantheistic and anti-cosmic Satanists could be venerating the same something, just with different focuses.
In that sense, I, similar to the anti-cosmicists, would equate Satan with the chaos beyond the cosmos. However, I'd differ from them by stressing that the cosmos nevertheless still is a manifestation of chaos (gnostics normally believe that, too, they just say that chaos made a mistake by creating cosmos and that it's too far removed from it to be clearly perceivable as stemming from there).
Chaos from the anti-cosmic point of view is considered to be in opposition to cosmos and to fight against its laws. If assuming that this chaos actually exists, it seems to me to be of the same nature as cosmos, though, the source from which this oppositional/satanic existence stems from.

Kapalika

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2017, 07:52:17 am »
You have to understand that no one holds a monopoly over Satanism. There many sects and interpretations of Satanism.

I think, after over seven years, I know too well there are many different belief systems identifying themselves as Satanism.

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You can always do research on a particular sect, see what they are about, try to understand their point of view,

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I think you are too emotional and taking everything too close to heart for your own good tbh.

In other words, you either have no justification or are just too lazy to tell me why you think it can or should be be anti-cosmic? Or do you just not find it important enough to lay out your own view and why you think it's that way?

I laid out my beliefs and why I believe it. If I take it "close to heart" I take it as a compliment that I'm serious and have the satanic fire of passion. Can you say the same? Calling me "too emotional" however reflects on the fact that you just didn't have anything to actually say to me on the subject and so I'm left wondering why you bothered to reply at all even.

The point of topics like this is to provoke discussion. If you feel challenged, you consider it this if you want. I mean, by making this kind of topic I'm opening myself up to it anyway just as much as it might open you up to it.
My Music and Blog // My Chatroom
My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra (Left Hand path)
"God and the individual are one, to realize this is the essence of Shaivism.” - Lakshman Joo

Kapalika

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2017, 08:09:00 am »
I have been thinking about panentheistic Satanism lately, and that might be a possible way of how both pantheistic and anti-cosmic Satanists could be venerating the same something, just with different focuses.

Now see, your post is more of the kind I was looking for.

I can't say I agree with good chunks of it as I see it now... however you've given me some things to consider. As much as I can say for sure right now is that I don't see chaos as being anti-cosmic, I kind of see it how you said that the Cosmos is part of the cosmos... I guess I'm more saying the cosmos is chaos and the chaos is the cosmos. Otherwise we are talking about panentheism and not pantheism, in my opinion.

What I don't reply to below (and even then) I'll have to think about.

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My issues with anti-cosmic Satanism go into a similar direction. If we take away all "cosmic" aspects of ourselves, what would be left? Pure consciousness, maybe? How could that even have any specific will when it has no definite properties?

I find it weird to think of pure consciousnesses without the Universe, since in my beliefs it's a subset of the Universe. I guess, what I'm saying, is that pure consciousness is not a "big" as Universal Consciousness. Some kind of "bigger than everythingness consciousness" would seem again to me to be panentheism not pantheism.

As far as self deification... I don' see how, or even why one would need to be anti-cosmos for that. Anywhere you'd go would be part of the Cosmos still so the only real place I think anti-cosmos can really go is utter destruction of everythingness. Which would mean one would destroy themselves too. I would say there isn't anything left. However it does occur to me that nirguna (attributelessness) is a thing within Hinduism. Nirguna is still a topic I am not sure on but ultimately I think ceasing to exist, and existing as only having nirguna are two different things.

Speaking from my own belief system, the deified person isn't attributeless though. Shivagama bestows existence-bliss-conciousness-doership IIRC (and thus able to exert a will). Being only nirguna would just be existence, which is hardly as you said able to enforce a will. So I don't see how one could self deify with a will while being anti-cosmic, even if it's just lacking a cosmos or universe then to do it in.
My Music and Blog // My Chatroom
My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra (Left Hand path)
"God and the individual are one, to realize this is the essence of Shaivism.” - Lakshman Joo

Liu

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2017, 08:24:36 am »
I have been thinking about panentheistic Satanism lately, and that might be a possible way of how both pantheistic and anti-cosmic Satanists could be venerating the same something, just with different focuses.

Now see, your post is more of the kind I was looking for.

I can't say I agree with good chunks of it as I see it now... however you've given me some things to consider. As much as I can say for sure right now is that I don't see chaos as being anti-cosmic, I kind of see it how you said that the Cosmos is part of the cosmos... I guess I'm more saying the cosmos is chaos and the chaos is the cosmos. Otherwise we are talking about panentheism and not pantheism, in my opinion.

What I don't reply to below (and even then) I'll have to think about.
Great! Take your time.
It would be really helpful to have an actual anticosmicist here to explain these parts that we struggle to understand here. About most of the rest of what you replied I can also only shrug my shoulders.

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I find it weird to think of pure consciousnesses without the Universe, since in my beliefs it's a subset of the Universe. I guess, what I'm saying, is that pure consciousness is not a "big" as Universal Consciousness. Some kind of "bigger than everythingness consciousness" would seem again to me to be panentheism not pantheism.
I agree, it would be closer to panentheism. But panentheism is still pretty close to pantheism, which is why I brought it up as the bridge that might help connect our pantheistic concepts with those of gnostics.

King Mob

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2017, 10:10:33 am »
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My issues with anti-cosmic Satanism go into a similar direction. If we take away all "cosmic" aspects of ourselves, what would be left? Pure consciousness, maybe? How could that even have any specific will when it has no definite properties?

Quote
I find it weird to think of pure consciousnesses without the Universe, since in my beliefs it's a subset of the Universe. I guess, what I'm saying, is that pure consciousness is not a "big" as Universal Consciousness. Some kind of "bigger than everythingness consciousness" would seem again to me to be panentheism not pantheism.

As a Draconian, I believe conciousness is eternal and always present whether the universe is here or now. Draconianism originated and the Temple of Set's Order of Leviathan who investigated the word "remanifestation." I can't recall who but it was either Apophis or Leviathan that answered "How do I teach them immortality" with "by not dying." I do know Apophis said to sweep the board aside when it displeases you and that the message of Set is who gives a fuck?

So if conciousness is eternal why would we want to destroy the universe? To create a new one where the desires we have are manifested are real!  :mrgreen: One could argue that we already do that each time we do an act of magick but the Draconians like to take it to the next level. In that system, crossing the abyss is not a permanent thing like Buddhist Nirvana but something you can then use to increase your magick with symbolism or use to not give a fuck when the world as it is displeases you.

This is not at all unique to Draconianism! The Norse Seidhr operated on much the same principle with seeing the web of destiny and weaving it. There's a similar exercise for time travel in Voudoun Gnostic Workbook. The Draconian current is also concerned with time travel as well. So it's safe to those concerned with manifesting magick from the void with the will of their conciousness alone are also interested in how you can push the boundaries with void.

This differs from dogmatic chaos magick as kaos would be more equiavalent to the Borneless One but has quite a lot in common with the philosophy of chaos magick.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 10:20:20 am by King Mob »
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

King Mob

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2017, 10:18:40 am »
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You have to understand that no one holds a monopoly over Satanism. There many sects and interpretations of Satanism. You can always do research on a particular sect, see what they are about, try to understand their point of view, and never think about them again if it's not your cup of tea.

I have to agree with @Setamorphosis on this one. There's no one dictionary of any system. It's useless to debate definitions and semantics all the time when we can be doing the work.  :D Not to say we don't all get distracted by arguments sometime.

But as someone who is both an athiestic chaos magician and someone working for his anthropology major, I find every belief system and practice has its own benefits that you can discover by either a scholarly study or immersion in their belief. But that is my personal opinion and will not work for everyone, it is rather liberating for me though and I like to advocate for personal liberation in general.

You can also understand a lot of your own beliefs you might not have noticed otherwise by pretending something else. For example, we all know those evangelical athiests. Imagine if they made themself believe in evangelical christianity for a month before returning to their common belief, I'd imagine they'd act quite differently after seeing how much they act like what they despise.
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

Sutekh

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2017, 06:14:14 pm »
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So I don't see how "opposition", or Satan, whatever you want to call it... how it can be anything but cosmic.

Pardon me if I am wrong on your words on this, but are you saying that you view Satan to be cosmic? Meaning existing outside of the Physical Universe? Or not? I am just curious.
"Our collective ambition is that the membership of the Order of the Serpent also serves as guardians of the Black Flame and collaborates with the Prince of Darkness in the Infernal Mandate of re-creating the Cosmos in the eternal glory of the Setian Will!"-Setamontet

pi_ramesses

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2017, 07:25:35 pm »
I have read through some of the comments on this topic. And here are some thoughts that come to mind.

I'll start from the Socratic method of refutation. I am of the opinion that there is an objective truth; it's just that we have not come across anything that constitutes knowledge as defined by the sceptics. The clear effect of this is our disagreements however small or large. The disagreements themselves make for great dialectic. It is also compelling to think that we are not equipped epistemologically as we can make assertions only from our experiences though we can try to step out of it.

Also, I think of knowledge as justified true beliefs. I don't think I'm too crazy in thinking that everyone holds their beliefs to be true. Otherwise it would be the negation of the false belief that they would hold to be true. If I do want to consider an alternative belief, then I would like to see some justification (something that looks like a logical proof as best as can be stated) of that belief for me to think of it as approaching knowledge. I took this approach when reading on Advaita Vedanta and Setianism, both of which I found quite reasonable but someone could like the other based on preference.

Just as there are problems with what constitutes knowledge, there are also some problems with justification of the belief. I can see this one play out either pro-cosmic or acosmic. In other forums where the age-old question is being asked whether gods exist or not, we are asking does the gods (specifically Satan) constitute the whole of the cosmos or something ethereal altogether.

I'm not making a dogmatic assertion either way that I have knowledge or that getting to know something or someone is impossible. Rather, that having beliefs on something are a step towards it and I'm still looking. Certainly, I would think of what I think of as true in a weird solipsistic way. But I do require better justification for things so as to make stronger arguments. Not sure if I've fully put down thoughts here... I'll let it marinate and post if anything else comes up.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 07:47:15 pm by pi_ramesses »
Pro omnis dominos viae sinistra, sic itur ad astra
Nylfmedli14

pi_ramesses

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2017, 07:59:39 pm »
Well actually, within the CoS type Satanism, there is the question of whether gods exist or not. So not exactly.
Pro omnis dominos viae sinistra, sic itur ad astra
Nylfmedli14

King Mob

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2017, 09:51:32 pm »
I'd also like to point out that in Thursatru, Loki takes the form the the Teutonic Devil and brings about Ragnarok to despite the Gods.
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

Liu

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2017, 04:00:49 am »
As a Draconian, I believe conciousness is eternal and always present whether the universe is here or now.
I believe something quite similar - but what exactly do you mean by consciousness? Awareness per se, or also (parts of) the mind?

Quote
So if conciousness is eternal why would we want to destroy the universe? To create a new one where the desires we have are manifested are real!  :mrgreen: One could argue that we already do that each time we do an act of magick but the Draconians like to take it to the next level. In that system, crossing the abyss is not a permanent thing like Buddhist Nirvana but something you can then use to increase your magick with symbolism or use to not give a fuck when the world as it is displeases you.
The issue I have with this is, what of your self is left to recreate something after the destruction?

Just as there are problems with what constitutes knowledge, there are also some problems with justification of the belief. I can see this one play out either pro-cosmic or acosmic. In other forums where the age-old question is being asked whether gods exist or not, we are asking does the gods (specifically Satan) constitute the whole of the cosmos or something ethereal altogether.

I'm not making a dogmatic assertion either way that I have knowledge or that getting to know something or someone is impossible. Rather, that having beliefs on something are a step towards it and I'm still looking. Certainly, I would think of what I think of as true in a weird solipsistic way. But I do require better justification for things so as to make stronger arguments.
Yes, that's something important to keep in mind. Just, even if we ultimately don't know whether our beliefs are true or not, the question of this thread here rather seems to be, how could certain other beliefs be valid? And not asked in a dismissive way, but due to actual confusion about how to make sense of them.

pi_ramesses

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2017, 06:29:57 am »
As a Draconian, I believe conciousness is eternal and always present whether the universe is here or now.
I believe something quite similar - but what exactly do you mean by consciousness? Awareness per se, or also (parts of) the mind?

Quote
So if conciousness is eternal why would we want to destroy the universe? To create a new one where the desires we have are manifested are real!  :mrgreen: One could argue that we already do that each time we do an act of magick but the Draconians like to take it to the next level. In that system, crossing the abyss is not a permanent thing like Buddhist Nirvana but something you can then use to increase your magick with symbolism or use to not give a fuck when the world as it is displeases you.
The issue I have with this is, what of your self is left to recreate something after the destruction?

Nothing material. It seems to follow that only the consciousness (mind, or psyche) would remain provided it was cultivated. Otherwise, it would seem very dire that nothing of the self is left. So how is consciousness defined here?
Pro omnis dominos viae sinistra, sic itur ad astra
Nylfmedli14

Liu

Re: Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2017, 07:57:47 am »
Nothing material. It seems to follow that only the consciousness (mind, or psyche) would remain provided it was cultivated. Otherwise, it would seem very dire that nothing of the self is left. So how is consciousness defined here?
Well, me, and also @Kapalika I think, consider mind and consciousness to be two separate things. Mind (or at least its content, i.e. thoughts, sensations and feelings) is caused by or a manifestation of physical processes.
Consciousness exists, too, but is nothing but awareness itself.
Therefore, I consider the mind and will to be so interrelated with the cosmos that without cosmos no will.

Others here, and also anticosmic satanists, seem to have a different view on that, considering at least parts of the mind to be not caused by the cosmos.


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