Author Topic: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP  (Read 866 times)

King Mob

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2017, 10:16:59 am »
@Setamorphosis  This is my attempt to restructure your framework into necessary and window dressing and add my own. Let me know what you think. This is not structured in order of importance btw.

GOAL: To self-deify as an Acosmic deity. One that is simultaneously one with the void and a self-diefied ego/conciousness that may choose to manifest however it wishes due to it's alchemical marriage with the void.

CORE PHILOSOPHY


1. Demonolatry - choosing 1 particular demon or acosmic force to align yourself with, and work with it as partners/teacher-student dynamic in Faustian sense. Aligning your personality with the Archetype to understand Remanifestation and Merging. You must simply attain "Forbidden Knowledge" in this path.

2. Buddhism/Daoism-To understand the nature of chaos from a RHP perspective. Also, RHP work is useful for shedding what we tell ourselves are our egos falsely.

3. Necromancy. In order to overcome the boundaries of death. "That which is dead can not eternal lie but in strange aeons even death may die."

4. Antinomianism- to overcome worldy boundaries.

5. Setianism- To understand Xeper and Remanifestation. Also, their model of Macrocosm/Microcosm and black magick. Their perspective on ethics also would prevent people from going overboard on antinomianism as well as prevent problems caused by hedonism and transmogrification.

6. Chaos Magick-work with Liber Nox seems like it would be essential. Also, in general to understand Chaos from an disattached perspective that could be either LHP or RHP. Liber Nox also gives a LHP perspective of chaos. Transmogrification(creating situations that transform you based on your own will power) and Alphabet of Desire(Hedonism to fully embrace the material world) seem key. Both of these will create a Buddhist sense of detachment while still embracing LHP philosophy in whatever way you choose to remanifest yourself at that time.

7. Luciferianism/Thursatru-Courtesy of Thursatru, I see Satanism as awakening the conciousness ie the black flame where as I see Lucifer as the gaurder of the Anticosmic/Acosmic flame. Lucifer might be a bard archetpye for this but he's the closest to Loki who serves the same role. My previous thought on magic gnosis+conciousness=magick comes into play here.

8. Draconian. In philosophy only; you must simply open your eye to the void if you ever want to become chaos. Their transendence of time seems necessary if you wish to become an Acosmic diety. Also, what do you think of their view on working with: A god of Conciousness(Odin/Satan), a great mother (Babalon/Lilith), and Serpent(Apophis/Orobous). Orobous seems central to the transcendence of time as well. Also, what do you think of my adendum of God of Gnosis(i.e; Loki) so that anti-cosmicism is represented and we have a complete achemical marriage. Those who do not wish to work with Gods can convert this to an alchemical formula easily.


WINDOW DRESSING. (These may influence the path tangentially or might be how we achieve goals in the path but is not necessary to follow it)

1. Haitian Vodoun, possibly. The Voudoun Gnostic workbook seems to hold some great exercises related to time and you have personal interest

2. Norse Magick, specifically rune magick - utilizing the Thurisaz rune, possibly embracing the acausal, chaotic power of the Jotun. Thursatru goes here as well. My work with the Dragon Runes. This will probably be my speciality in this path.

3. Hinduism, possibly. I don't work with Hindu Gods as we don't get along too well. They're too Right Hand Path for me. But you could understand how one can have multiple manifestations from it's study and you seem interested.

4. Ancient Sumerian elements (linked to Demonolatry)

5. Egyptian Elements- As a Thelemic Black Brother, this is naturally going to influence my own personal approach. I like the Temple of Set's Order of Horus philosophy in using the Hawk God as a symbol of personal power. The only key element here is the pursuit of Power. I could write an essay on the First Pharoah who united Lower and Upper Kingdoms of Egypt maybe as an example to follow for unification in this path but eh, I wouldn't say someone needs to use Egyptian elements to pursue it.



So what do you think?

My only other note you seem to reject the destructive forces of the universe. I think they're key in a metaphorical sense. You need to self-destruct in order to re-manifest. Here, destruction is not seen as the end of everything but a shedding of old skins that make way for something stronger.
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

Setamorphosis

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2017, 12:19:46 pm »
@King Mob ,

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GOAL: To self-deify as an Acosmic deity. One that is simultaneously one with the void and a self-diefied ego/conciousness that may choose to manifest however it wishes due to it's alchemical marriage with the void.

Yes.

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1. Demonolatry...

Yes, although the merging of the archetype should be optional, in my opinion. Those who don't believe in archetype, or view these forces and beings as something more than archetypes (again, it depends how you define the term) could refrain from the alignment. Another cool approach would be to choose a demon or an acosmic being that's different from you (doesn't match your personality), so that you can learn more. Choosing an opposite being, for instance, could be of great benefit. Let's say you have a person who's rather hateful, and a misanthrope. This person could form an alliance of a being which represents love - the rewards to be reaped from this arrangement are great. The person can and will grow so much from the experiences with said being. All the person has to do is be open-minded. Combine this with insight roles, and you get some powerful stuff.

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2. Buddhism/Daoism

Yup, although I'd do some cherry-picking, so to speak. Take ideas that are great from these two paths, and discard the rest. Also, meditations are important. I recommend doing them, if you don't already. Funny enough, the meditation where you strive to quiet/empty your mind is called "Void Meditation" by some.

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3. Necromancy.

I propose a different type of necromancy. Instead of communication with the dead, graverobbing, and other things necromancy implies, I would focus on a more proper spiritual aspect - and that is Necromantic Alchemy. That is to say, embracing death in the sense of destroying your "old self," only to be born anew. I don't define death as the end of organs' function. Rather, I define death as the end of the person or a persona, in a physical and/or spiritual sense. Death, in this sense, fits Xeper and Remanifestation processes quite nicely.

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Antinomianism

Yes, but this should not be taken to extremes. This can easily be interpreted as "Fuck the laws, time to commit some beautiful slaughter!" No, one should look at the costs and benefits before acting.

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5. Setianism

Definitely.

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6. Chaos Magick

Yup. I should really read Liber Nox, though.

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7. Luciferianism/Thursatru

Of course!

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8. Draconian. I

To me, that's essentially the same as opening the third eye. Some might disagree, but I'd argue that the third eye is a very vague concept, and can apply to many different things, contrary to popular belief.

About the workings, though - Are you suggesting that one should align themselves with ALL 3 of those types of entities, or pick 1 one of those?

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1. Haitian Vodoun,

I highly recommend reading The Spider & The Green Butterfly by E.A. Koetting. I'd utilize the following concepts of Haitian Vodoun:

1. "Possession." Instead of opening yourself up to the Loa, one could open themselves up to be "possessed" by the powers of The Void. Let yourself be consumed by the maddening darkness.

2. You can draw some nice inspirations for curses.

I know Haitian Vodoun is so much more than what I just wrote above, but frankly, I'm not a religious person, and I don't want to be a part of any religion. That's why I discard most of Haitian Vodoun. I take ideas I like, discard what I don't like.

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2. Norse Magick

Isn't Thurisaz a negative rune, though? It represents the uncontrollable forces, which cause harm to someone, no? If so, it'd make for a great curse, but for self-empowerment, not so much.

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3. Hinduism

Let's leave Hinduism out of this. I don't work with their gods either. As you've said, too RHP. And I have no interest in exploring it, after all.

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4. Ancient Sumerian elements

Linked to Demonolatry, yeah. Many, if not most, demons are Sumerian gods, anyway. ALSO, I'd like to add this: Working with 50 Names of Marduk could prove very rewarding. 50 Names of Marduk are very much like Goetia. If you work with the Goetia whenever you have certain ends you need to achieve already, you can work with the following names:

1. Marduk (magic)
2. Marutukku (protection)
3. Zulummar (physical strength)
4. Lugalabdubur (attacker/defender)
5. Aranunna (gates, covenant)
6. Tuku (baneful magic)

These names are nothing like the spirits of Goetia; that is, their functions and attributes are not the same.

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My only other note you seem to reject the destructive forces of the universe. I think they're key in a metaphorical sense. You need to self-destruct in order to re-manifest. Here, destruction is not seen as the end of everything but a shedding of old skins that make way for something stronger.

I've thought about this. I think I'm more learning to accept them now. In fact, I wouldn't totally be against the idea of destroying the universe itself either, but not in the ways MLO or similar groups imagined. I'm against vandalism, as I think it's barbaric. But, suppose that you could destroy the universe via spiritual means, and thus ensuring the freedom of every living thing in this universe, freeing them from their own nature & nurture programming. It's, in a way, abolishing of slavery. In this sense, I wouldn't be totally against the idea of anti-cosmicism.

I'll still stick with the concept and the name of Acosmicism. I'm just entertaining the ideas of destruction, that's all.

Thoughts?

PS. Working with a consciousness god could be very rewarding. You know, I read somewhere that Satan might have actually come from the word Wotan/Wodan. Wotan/Wotanaz is far closer to the word Satan/Satanaz/Satanas than Odin, funny enough. Not because of the spelling, but because of the root words and letters. If I find the source, I'll let you know. What do you think about this as well btw? Could it be the same entity?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 12:23:59 pm by Setamorphosis »
"Darkness is just light turned inside out."
  --Beelzebub

King Mob

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2017, 01:03:33 pm »


Demonology:

I agree with this but I think for those who don't believe in archetypes, they should at the very least practice insight roles which seems to be what you are suggesting. I simply use archetypes as it is the language I use as someone very into Jung.

Buddhism/Daoism:

We've done some meditations in the corpse pose in my yoga class that are very RHP. She places emphasis on the ego being important and the purposes of these meditations is forming a "compassionate witness" so they you can look at yourself as objectively as possible without reacting. She also emphasises that we shouldn't destroy the ego. What do you think of this philosophy? I agree with cherry picking but if we ever come up with a recommended reading list(which is enitrely optional) Tao Te Jing seems like it would be a good fit.

Necromancy.

Yes and no. I agree with you on Necromatnic alchemy but I think necromancy is valuable as well. I don't support grave robbing. However, graveyard dirt is common in a lot of hoodoo spells. Nordic Paganism's ancestor work can be viewed as socially acceptible form of necromancy as well. Same thing with Chinese Ancestor Worship. As within, so without. Exploring it without could help with Necromantic Alchemy. I recommend the Necromantic Handbook for some ideas on this, if you haven't read it. It's rather grim, it suggests sleeping next to a corpse in pitch black tomb over night to overcome your fear of death. I don't recommend this personally so find my version of necromancy less barbaric than traditonal Necromantic Alchemy. However, I love this concept of Necromantic Alchemy and what I was trying to hint at in my lovecraft strange aeons quote. I trust you to develop some practical methods for this more than I can.

We can agree to disagree and you can emphasise the Necromantic qualities and I can emphasize the Necromancy qualities, if you want.

Antinomianism.

Yes, I agree with you. Liber Nox's Alphabet of Desire and Temple of Set's view on ethics should provide a good counterbalance to Antinomianism in my opinion. And again, I'd like to put in a disclaimer we don't encourage or accept extremes.

Chaos magic.

You already did, it's part of Liber Null. It should be good to refresh your memory. It has the basic of a lot of approaches in it.

Draconian.

To me, the awakening of the third eye equates to clarovoiancy. Draconian to me seems more akin to a HGA experience that they call Daemon. It's more akin to their self-realization. We don't follow this strictly for our path(though my gnosis will come from this, I'm sure) but place emphasis on stuff like void meditation and developing that. I would say the first three heads of the dragon are the traditional "third eye opening" rather than their abyss. The transcendence of time seems important in their philosophy and Peter Carrol himself hinted at this possibility in Psybermagic. We don't have to follow either of their examples but I feel we should explore the mysteries of time. A lot of Thursatru and Rokktru communicate with Jorgummandr for this which is a norse version of Orobous. I'm sure we have various options

As for the 4 Gods. Apophis suggests working with all three. I had the fourth. I will be working with in God forms and people can do that if they wish, but I'm esentially suggesting at an alchemical formula. Strengthened Concioussness+Identification with Void Gnosis+Great Mother archetype(I don't know what this translates to- sex magick and necromatnic alchemy?)+Orobous mysteries(mysteries of time and reicarnation in how we describe)=Ascomic Deification.

I'm sure I will have more specifics as I work with them. What your thoughts?

Hatian Voudoun:

Invocation is useful. I've done it with Godforms and dead rock-stars. From percieving other people who have invoked abyssal energies and the warnings of a few texts, I find this extremely risky. It is not my place to do it and I think it should be an option for those who wish to but I will find myself practicing it only in certain extreme circumstances.

I agree that it has nice ideas for curses and I personally classify this under hoodoo and sympathetic magic. It can apply to all kind of spells, not just curses.

Norse Magick.

Nope, it's a common misunderstanding though. It also represent's Thor's Hammer! It's vital energy. Uncontrolled and raw. Put two back to back and you have the Nordic version of a ying/yang symbol. as well as a Thurs/Ng/Isa bind rune! It can be incredibly destructive and is suited for curses but also for protection(self empowerment). Thursatru works with anticosmic forces. Some like Gullveig seem destructive and dark, she's similar to Lilith and Hekate. However, Loki is a Thurs and is a very complicated figure who plays a role in Ragnarok but loves to partake in the world as well. However, if you work with runes- you should work with all the runes. It's a system that requires a study of the whole. Thursatru my preferred version of anticosmicism is it is less extreme, especially in how I interpret it.

Ancient Sumerian Elements.

I agree with this as an option. There's also a grimoire out there based on working with the Sumerian Demon Kings. I've only really worked with Ishtar who I like. I think this is a great option for those who don't wish to work with Goetia. What I propose is that you develop Sumerian option of the Goetia with little input from it while I investigate the Lovecraftian version of it to make options open for everyone. At the basis, we'll have a system for someone to even put their own skin on it.|

I completely agree with your thoughts on destruction. Reject the extremes. Spiritual destruction seems okay. I like the Loki model which is akin to Liber Nox's Transmogrification. Create and destroy situations at the whim. I say emotional collateral damage is part of it because naturally some peopel will be hurt if they don't understand your sense of detachment. Again, why I harken back to Temple of Set's views ethics is to counteract this from devolving into a cruel person. Indifference is not sadistic. It may appear that way tp outsiders but there's an important distinction.

Your thoughts?




"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

Setamorphosis

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2017, 01:20:25 pm »
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ego being important and the purposes of these meditations is forming a "compassionate witness" so they you can look at yourself as objectively as possible without reacting.

I've encountered this philosophy before through some self-proclaimed New Agers. I agree with it.

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We can agree to disagree and you can emphasise the Necromantic qualities and I can emphasize the Necromancy qualities, if you want.

Sure, I'll think of some practical methods of Necromantic Alchemy. I already have some ideas, but I'll first flesh them out in my head before revealing them, so they appear more coherent, specific, and unique.

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You already did, it's part of Liber Null. It should be good to refresh your memory. It has the basic of a lot of approaches in it.

Herp, derp. Time to re-read.

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It's more akin to their self-realization.

Ah, I see. I'll look into this technique, then. As for the gods, I'd say that consciousness gods would be Set, Enki, Odin, Satan (first that come to mind). Great Mother: Lilith, Astaroth/Astarte/Ishtar, and Freyja (she's also a goddess of war, AND a portion of souls do go to her. There is a dark aspect to, which very few people bother exploring). Serpent: Jormugand, Ouroboros, Leviathan.

I like the idea, I might get into this as soon as possible, actually.

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Norse Magick.

Ah, my bad. Thanks for the correction. Then, yes, harnessing the power of this rune would be very beneficial.

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Ancient Sumerian Elements.

Indeed, we need a variety. I'm interested in this grimoire, by the way. Do you know what it is its name?

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Again, why I harken back to Temple of Set's views ethics is to counteract this from devolving into a cruel person. Indifference is not sadistic. It may appear that way tp outsiders but there's an important distinction.

Thanks for telling me this. Since I'm exploring the darkest depths of my psyche, it's good to be reminded that I'm not a sadistic psychopath. Just indifferent to quite a few things, as well as possessing ideas which would definitely be considered demonic and evil by the majority (e.g. destruction of the universe (spiritual)).

By the way, you didn't answer my question about Wodan being Satan. It's the last paragraph in my previous post, if you've missed it.



"Darkness is just light turned inside out."
  --Beelzebub

King Mob

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2017, 01:40:57 pm »
Ah, sorry the question got lost in my attempt to answer everything.

Your correspondences(minus Ishtar) are actually the exact ones given in Apophis and the Book of the Dragon Runes! So I agree with this and also nominate Gullveig as a darker aspect of the Great Mother in the Nordic current. As for Wotan/Odin, that's interesting. I don't know enough gramatically to verify this but I'm pretty sure they are the same archetype. I'd love to see the sources that explain gramatically. I've seen them linked as similar figures in many books. There's three different dragons listed in the book of dragon runes though that make up the whole aspect.

I actually suggest using both Liber Lux(RHP) and Liber Nox(LHP) from Liber Null for this. Liber Nox is more relevant but there's some invaluable tools in Liber Lux such as divination and invocation. Pick and choose from Liber Lux and adjust it obviously.

It's the Grimoire of Tiamat. Here's the description from Amazon:

"Tiamat is the Primal Dragon Goddess, the first one, who gave birth to the gods of the universe", the Mother of Everything, the self-procreating womb, the source of all life and all manifestation. The work described in this book was inspired by the Babylonian epic known as the "Enuma Elish", one of the oldest Creation myths in the world. The Grimoire of Tiamat presents a complete system of magick based around the Mesopotamian primordial goddess Tiamat and the eleven demons she created to aid her in her fight against the new order of gods lead by Marduk. The book is divided into three sections: first, a lengthy introduction of the theme and cosmology, followed by individual workings for each of the eleven demon-gods, and then a concluding appendix of thematically related workings focusing directly on Tiamat and Kingu. The second section, The Children of Tiamat, presents ways of working with each of the eleven demon-gods, prefaced with an explanation of the techniques that follow and the use of the Key of Night, a master sigil that is employed throughout the workings as a way to access the Nightside. The final section of The Grimoire of Tiamat is an appendix that returns the focus to Tiamat as it takes the form of a guided meditation within the waters of Tiamat, a ritual for two participants invoking Tiamat and Kingu, a rite of malefica, and a discussion of the underworld in Mesopotamian belief, followed by a chthonic guided path working."

I feel like there's another one similar to this I might be thinking of instead. Also from my griomoire wishlist, Eye of the Oracle seems very relevant to our path and an option for exploring the void for this that don't wish to work with anything Draconian.

"Delving into the mysterious realm of of psionic power, the Grandmaster of the Maergzjiran Cabal, Somnus Dreadwood explains the works of psychic magick as would be taught to the Disciple ascending the Tower of the Void. It covers everything from basic meditations to the absolute transformation as an Eye of the Oracle; an individual who has mastered these magnificent and expansive arts. Such topics covered are meditation, remote viewing, telepathy, aura reading, divination and clairvoyance, Voidwalking, psychometabolic augmentation, the use of intention as a weapon, mantras, mundras, kuji-in-like energy channeling, servants of the astral plane, traveling beyond the mortal plane, transcending the flesh, a built-in void journal, and more. As a Cabal Grimoire, it is broken down by book to guide the Disciple from beginning to end as would be taught in the Maergzjiran Cabal's Tower of the Void."

It also seems to be related to Necromancy from the reviews. Hmm.

And yeah, I have a lot of indifferent tendences some that develop as I travel this path. It just comes from my personality type being more logical. I don't undestand a lot of things. It doesn't mean I'm cruel or sadistic. Most people who know me would describe me as an extremely nice guy, honestly. If you're close to me and a friend, then I'm pretty kind. However, I had a ex call my "Spock" as an insult because I didn't understand her over-emotionalnesss. What it does mean practically though is in situations where our spiritual views or selfishness is prioritized, we can be a little cold or detached and that can be hurtful. Doesn't mean we take pleasure in other's pain or seek it out. IMO, everyone does this to some degree. We're all a little selfish. I interpret destruction of the universe to be about the subjective universes by the way. Most, even LHP practicioners I feel, would disagree with as individual will is paramount but if someone is obviously not practicing their will, there's nothing wrong with shaking their subjective universe up a little.



"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

Liu

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2017, 08:35:29 am »

PS. Working with a consciousness god could be very rewarding. You know, I read somewhere that Satan might have actually come from the word Wotan/Wodan. Wotan/Wotanaz is far closer to the word Satan/Satanaz/Satanas than Odin, funny enough. Not because of the spelling, but because of the root words and letters. If I find the source, I'll let you know. What do you think about this as well btw? Could it be the same entity?
I noticed the video you posted about this in the chat, and just a heads up by an actual linguist: it's full of bullshit.
Using the Greek spelling to derive a Hebrew word's relationship to a German one makes no sense in the first place. The Digamma-letter they mention wasn't used anymore since centuries at the time of the New Testament (except as a numeral), nor does it even appear in the Greek spelling of Satan. (Well, the last letter of "Σατανας" does look a bit like the numeral shape ϛ of digamma, but it's a different sign and is not even the letter they refer to in the video).
The Fehu rune is pronounced different from the Digamma (and wouldn't even appear in the runic spelling of Wotan). Not saying that there might be no relation between them as the letter shape of digamma (Ϝ) has some similarities to the Fehu rune ᚠ and yes, w and f have some phonological similarities. But actually, words that would have been spelt with a fehu in Germanic would have been spelt with a pi (π) in Greek, e.g. the Ancient Greek etymological equivalent to English "foot", Germanic "fōts" is Ancient Greek "πούς".

The etymology of Odin/Wotan is not completely certain (but well, nothing is completely certain in this science). But from what I read in actual scientific literature again and again, it goes back to a word probably referring to a change of consciousness, like rage or ecstasy, possibly one induced by shamanic practices.
It's etymologically related to for example German "wüten" ("to wreck havok"), or "Wut" ("anger"). That it's lacking the "w" in Northern Germanic languages is a completely normal pronunciation change that occurs in language history all the time. Also the vowel difference in the second syllable is not that uncommon.

I see no way how a Indo-European word for rage and a Semitic word for adversary could be likely etymologically related, especially due to the lack of language contact at the necessary points in time. Well, admittedly, there is one not so mainstream hypothesis that there were some Semitic tribes (e.g. Phoenicians) in western Europe which had a certain influence on the development of the Germanic language and from which several loan words were taken. I don't know enough about Semitic languages to tell how likely or unlikely that hypothesis is. But even if it's true, and the Germanic peoples actually adopted the name of Satan from some Semitic language, the sound shifts which this would have gone through would have most likely resulted in something very different from "Wotan" or "Odin", and it at least would have nothing at all to do with the "explanation" in that video.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:44:23 am by Liu »

Setamorphosis

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2017, 11:08:11 am »
Thanks for your input, @Liu .

I've read somewhere that the meaning of the word satan, 'adversary,' isn't supported by a lot of evidence either. Instead, the word suggests an attack, a violent attack. Not sure if it's correct, though.

As for Wotan-Satan, though the word may not be derived from Wotan, there's still a lot of similarities between the two. They could very well be considered different interpretations of the same thing.
"Darkness is just light turned inside out."
  --Beelzebub

Liu

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2017, 11:45:56 am »
Thanks for your input, @Liu .
You're welcome.

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I've read somewhere that the meaning of the word satan, 'adversary,' isn't supported by a lot of evidence either. Instead, the word suggests an attack, a violent attack. Not sure if it's correct, though.
I haven't heard of that before, but who knows. As I said, I don't speak any Semitic language.

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As for Wotan-Satan, though the word may not be derived from Wotan, there's still a lot of similarities between the two. They could very well be considered different interpretations of the same thing.
That's for sure. As I'm agnostic to the metaphysical status of deities, I won't speculate on which level they are or aren't the same, but I see how aspects of those two can be easily interpreted to reflect aspects of the same force.

Xepera maSet

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2017, 11:50:41 am »
I had a ton of Hebrew education growing up. So far as I know "adversary" is a pretty accurate translation of "ha-satan."
AKA: Three Scarabs, 1137

"You look up into the night sky - whether as a child or an adult - and if you open yourself honestly, then it is a gateway to mystery, to the unknown."

Setamorphosis

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2017, 12:51:06 pm »
@Xepera maSet ah, alright.

@King Mob , just dropping by here to say: the 3 god plan (Great Mother, God of Consciousness, and Serpent/Dragon of Chaos) is brilliant. I think I think I'll choose a very dark force for the serpent / dragon of chaos.
"Darkness is just light turned inside out."
  --Beelzebub

Kapalika

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2017, 04:25:52 am »
I tried to read all the posts but skimmed pages 2 and 3 lol. I didn't know I was late to the party darn it.

Many will say that the anti-cosmic philosophy is edgy, childish, or what have you. But I think there's something interesting in this approach.

I've always said it seems weirdly semantical. Even if you became a love-craftian horror or whatever, they were cosmic horrors. I mean, there is no "outside" of the cosmos by definition. If you went "outside" of it you would just expand the scope of the cosmos. Simply existing within the cosmos.

It's way too edgey to be RHP despite sharing some goals and I think there's some differences. I think Buddhists want to be one with the universe, and would see the abyss as a natural part of it, where as anti-cosmicists would see chaos as the only truth. It's focused on seperation from the demi-urge.

2. Buddhism

As far as I am aware Buddhism doesn't believe in a soul. They believe in the "not-self" as far as I've ever been told. Make of that what you will.

Makes the most sense, really. I'm already undergoing this process. I'm still indecisive about the God-self, though.

Now, the end goal is something I've been pondering. Suppose you return to the chaos, merge with it, it's a seeming RHP goal, BUT I might just be speaking in human words here. Maybe there is no merging after all. Since chaos is all possibilities and none at the same time, one could argue that you merge, but are your own independent entity at the same time.

[snippet]

You become independent (LHP goal) & You merge with something greater (RHP goal).

Best of both worlds, eh?

I don't know about the other stuff in this post but you actually hit on something I didn't expect to find in here:

"Since chaos is all possibilities and none at the same time, one could argue that you merge, but are your own independent entity at the same time."

You've just very aptly described how Shivagama is described in Trika (Kashmir Shaivism, whatever). I'm actually pretty impressed. I wouldn't of called it chaos, maybe Shiva or Satan, but the thing there is the same, just different symbols and names.

I personally avoid the word "merge" due to connotations and being imprecise, but it gets the job done sometimes.

Anyways I find it really interesting that someone else thinks of it as such by way of Satanism. I actually stumbled upon Trika because it was so similar to the Satanic system I developed, much like you seem to be developing a system now.

However something important to note,  I wouldn't call Trika anti-cosmic... if anything this Universe becomes the vessel of one's expression, not something to shun. So maybe you would differ with me on that. If so I don't know what I could offer since the Universe plays a big role in becoming one's "Shakti" in that system. But it's nice to see something comparable.

In either case don't worry about it, it sounds perfectly LHP to me. Again I wouldn't of used the merge language but @Liu was right earlier in saying it's in line with the eastern view of LHP (or at least the nondual LHP I'm familiar with, not sure about dualistic LHP Shakta; I'm just a Shaivite, and my branch of shaivism has been near dead for centuries).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 04:34:17 am by Kapalika »
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My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmācāra (Left Hand path)
"God and the individual are one, to realize this is the essence of Shaivism.” - Lakshman Joo

Liu

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2017, 05:42:18 am »
I tried to read all the posts but skimmed pages 2 and 3 lol. I didn't know I was late to the party darn it.
Welcome back ^^

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I've always said it seems weirdly semantical. Even if you became a love-craftian horror or whatever, they were cosmic horrors. I mean, there is no "outside" of the cosmos by definition. If you went "outside" of it you would just expand the scope of the cosmos. Simply existing within the cosmos.
I would say that "out of the cosmos" here means "outside of the laws of nature, including time and logic". You could argue that such a "place" would still be part of the cosmos by simply existing, but actually this chaos is seen as "existing" beyond even the duality of existence and non-existence.
Make of that mystic babble what you will.

Regarding Lovecraftian deities, I have encountered interpretations that considered them to be extra-cosmic, but admittedly that doesn't seem to be canon.

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"Since chaos is all possibilities and none at the same time, one could argue that you merge, but are your own independent entity at the same time."

You've just very aptly described how Shivagama is described in Trika (Kashmir Shaivism, whatever). I'm actually pretty impressed. I wouldn't of called it chaos, maybe Shiva or Satan, but the thing there is the same, just different symbols and names.
  :mrgreen: Thought about the same when I read that post.

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However something important to note,  I wouldn't call Trika anti-cosmic... if anything this Universe becomes the vessel of one's expression, not something to shun. So maybe you would differ with me on that. If so I don't know what I could offer since the Universe plays a big role in becoming one's "Shakti" in that system. But it's nice to see something comparable.
I can't speak for @Setamorphosis, but I have the impression that his version is anticosmic in a different sense than from what e.g. the MLO seems to refer to in their writings. On the other hand, even they don't seem to always take their own claims that literally.

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In either case don't worry about it, it sounds perfectly LHP to me. Again I wouldn't of used the merge language but @Liu was right earlier in saying it's in line with the eastern view of LHP (or at least the nondual LHP I'm familiar with, not sure about dualistic LHP Shakta; I'm just a Shaivite, and my branch of shaivism has been near dead for centuries).
Always nice when my vague understanding of Shaivism gets confirmed by an actual practitioner  :D

King Mob

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2017, 10:17:56 am »
@Kapalika  That is extremely great insight about Shivaism.

Lovecraftian is a bit of weird description because I've used it a couple times here. O9A and Thursatru seem to believe in these forces that exist within the abyss, that are forces of the abyss, that only want destruction. O9A uses a lot of Lovecraftian-esque writing so I used it in there sense. I think there's a role of that in there but not in the extreme of O9A but more akin to Thursatru's work with giants which is far less extreme. Generally anticosmic forces exsit within the abyss which most people count as outside the cosmos.

I think this is accurate, the abyss is seen as the place in between this cosmos and kether by some RHP philosophies. One might see as it the bleed between the multiverse. A lot of interpretations. What existed before the big bang. Etc. Most interpret Cosmos to mean this specific universe in manifestation but I'm sure one could argue it to mean that includes everything including could bes, what-ifs, nothings.

When I use it in my own terms, I mean to describe something entirely indifferent to our understanding of things. I think Peter Carrol describes it best when he calls them Tranplutonary Forces. Or they could possibly be the darkest parts of our own mind.

We agree with you on not calling it anticosmic, we are calling it Acosmic in order to represent indifference. Yes, we would say the universe as something to be a vehicle of our expression. However, a follower would also be okay with destruction of the universe/a universe if it furthered their goals. I don't mean this in the sense of physical desctruction but that they would be okay interfering with someone's microcosm or destroying the multiple possible futures in order to cement the one they want, if that makes sense.

Working through Apophis now, my goals in this path seem to be closely aligned with the goals of Kelly's Draconic path and how they view things but I think this would take it a step farther, in my ideals, by redefining one's views of the Cosmos as something bigger an expanding their view of the void, as well.

"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

King Mob

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2017, 11:53:20 am »
The thought occured to me when reading Dreamlands for Halloween purposes and Apophis:

A central tennant to Lovecraftian's influence can be to explore your own dreamlands. Apophis recommends mapping out the landscape of your dreams. A lot of Lovecraftian occultists believed you could gain secret arcane knowledge from his Dreamlands. We could combine the two.
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

Liu

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2017, 01:38:08 pm »
I think this is accurate, the abyss is seen as the place in between this cosmos and kether by some RHP philosophies. One might see as it the bleed between the multiverse. A lot of interpretations. What existed before the big bang. Etc. Most interpret Cosmos to mean this specific universe in manifestation but I'm sure one could argue it to mean that includes everything including could bes, what-ifs, nothings.

Since you mention Keter - I think those that combine qabbalah with chaos rather see chaos as being even beyond Keter (or Taumiel in qliphotic terms). More like the Ain Sof. The abyss would be somewhere on the way to it, but not it itself.

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When I use it in my own terms, I mean to describe something entirely indifferent to our understanding of things. I think Peter Carrol describes it best when he calls them Tranplutonary Forces. Or they could possibly be the darkest parts of our own mind.
Yeah, that's always the question - are we describing something out there or something inside ourselves? And does it even make a difference?


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