Author Topic: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP  (Read 865 times)

King Mob

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 03:31:36 pm »
@Liu  Yep, the book had a diagram of that Skandinavian shape laid over the human body and it piercing the groin, chest, and head to show the sacrifice and it stuck with me. I'll see if I can find it later for this thread.

They're pretty decent books. I find fallofman to have some good left hand path books especially for those of the pagan variety but they certainly don't live up the prestige of Ixaaxar.

I much preferred Myurkthursablot, it was short but much closer to my beliefs/analysis whereas GAP lost me in a few areas.
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

Setamorphosis

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 03:54:52 pm »
The way I view demons and define demons differs from what people usually think of when they hear said word. To not get into the semantics and bore you with unnecessary details, I'll say that:

Due to their historical background in various myths and cultures, as well as what they represent and my experiences with these forces, I must say that demons are indeed ancient gods. Figures such as Amon from the Goetia make it fairly obvious. Or Astaroth.

When I see these figures, I do not accept the limiting view of the Christian demonology or any myth really. I think that these beings, or whatever you wish to term them, are quite complex in nature, and have many masks and faces, all representing the same principle(s) or force(s).

What I agree with in some of the texts I've been reading (of ONA and MLO, for example) is that names don't really mean much when we're talking about demons. Names such as Baal, Astaroth, Amon, etc are just esoteric names given by man (most likely) to describe particular things they've encountered.

One of my first posts here was about the god Kek, how 4chan used chaos magick to actually employ it, and some strange synchronicities that happened prior and after the birth of Pepe = Kek. One of the themes that reoccur is this light emerging from the darkness which is represented by Kek. Also by Baal. Also by Set. Also by Lucifer. Coincidentally, these figures were mixed together quite a few times by 4chan, and some magicians I know, myself included, experienced (without knowing much of 4chan) that these figures represent roughly the same thing.

In other words, a demon is way more powerful and encompasses more things than what the demonologists, Christians or otherwise, have written in their books.

To connect this to the Sumerian gods -- by working with, say, Astaroth, or Baal, you're also tapping into the same current, same force, as you would when working Ishtar, or Marduk, you just have to make the right connections. After all, Astaroth is just Ishtar/Astarte/Innana,etc demonized, while the demon of goetia Bael is an amalgam of many Baals, including Marduk (whose title was Bel), and other pagan figures.

Now, with that said, I agree that one should not limit himself. In fact, I think one has the freedom to work with as many forces as he wants, but should choose one as a primary one. A patron/matron who will let you interact with other forces/figures, basically.

I will most definitely look into Daoism, and the Typhonian Order! Thursatru, too (I did a little bit of reading on this one, but I'll save it for later) Thank you for the recommendations!

As for Haitian Vodoun, I only have the book Spider & The Green Butterfly by E.A. Koetting. I'll have to do more research, but I think there's some good information there.

In regards to Norse Magick, yes meditating on runes is awesome! I love meditating on the Dagaz, Othala and the Fehu runes.

Ah, I'm so excited now. But I must rest. I'll definitely keep you posted; I still have quite a lot of research to do. The next thing on the list is definitely Daoism. After that, I'll look into Haitian Vodoun even more. The ritualism which don't include the Loa, mainly.

As far as necromancy goes, though, I'm still not quite sure how far I'd go down that route. Inner alchemy by embracing death (in a metamorphic sense) could be quite potent, as well as dabbling into some cosmic/acosmic vampirism, eh?

Thank you, and keep me updated as well!

PS. I myself practice what the ONA would call "insight roles" - well, something akin to that. Taking on a role that's opposite of how I usually am. I also have various practices with include improving physical strength and endurance - some of which can be quite unpleasant but necessary (for me, at least). I believe that this project, this transformation, is not acquired through meditation only, but through accumulating power in the cosmic, the casual, and then use that power to amplify your magick. This is what I've been doing for a while.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 04:01:55 pm by Setamorphosis »
"Darkness is just light turned inside out."
  --Beelzebub

Xepera maSet

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2017, 03:09:52 pm »
I suppose I'm curious how anti-cosmic esotericism can necessarily be LHP. I understand from the perspective that it's against the natural order, but chaos also doesn't allow for individual self identity. It seems like a dark type of monist dissolution into an "all", except the all is chaos. Am I missing something?
AKA: Three Scarabs, 1137

"You look up into the night sky - whether as a child or an adult - and if you open yourself honestly, then it is a gateway to mystery, to the unknown."

Setamorphosis

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2017, 04:44:00 pm »
You're partially correct. There is going against the natural order and dissolution involved, BUT:

Since chaos is all possibilities manifesting all at once you get BOTH outcomes at the same time:

You become an independent entity AND merged with the chaos, thus you achieve an equilibrium in a way. Ironically, embracing the chaos is the road to ultimate equilibrium, in my opinion, because you have infinite possibilities and infinite outcomes - all happening at the same time.
"Darkness is just light turned inside out."
  --Beelzebub

King Mob

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2017, 08:01:53 pm »
@Xepera maSet  It's definitely a greyish area. The one reasoning is the one that Setamorphasis gave. He interpretation sounds pretty accuracte according to my view of Chaos. I feel that even if you don't disolve yourself into chaos you can resemble chaos in that you always have the possibility of no ego or creating the ego that you want; ie paradigm shifting or insight roles. I suppose this would be middle path and has it's own criticisms but I see it more as a tool strengthening the self. I guess it all depends on how one defines "self" and "strength." A right hand path follower would seek to stay constantly disolved.

Another is that but I think Anti-Cosmicists would define the Left Hand Path as rejecting God. The traditional God that one would disolve into in the RHP would be the demi-urge. A lot of Christians I know define hell as an absence of God.

Even if they're disolving into someting, they're still rejecting God and following the light of the Luciferian archetype.

It seems to me that Left Hand Path becomes incredibly hard to define, the more you study the off-shoots. This is one example. Another one I found in The Middle Path is basically that as long as you are praying to light or dark Gods to get what you want which makes you weak, you are practicing Right Hand Path and true LHP would be defined as praying to them for adversity that gives you your own strength.

I personally reject viewing dissolution as a RHP thing only as it's a weakness I feel should be purged from my own experience. I like that 3 mode model I shared earlier. I may not ever sacrifice the God portion when I get there but it is incredibly important to disolve your "false self" that prevents you from furthering your will on either path.

I guess my personal two cents is that to be consumed by the black flame/acosmic flame that Set/Loki gifted us is to be consumed by chaos and realize our complete freedom of "existence precedes essence" which means are are not defined by anything and are free to be who we want and define ourselves as we will at any time. As Setamorphasis said, infinite possibilites including the possiblity to not exist, to exist, or both at the same time.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 08:03:55 pm by King Mob »
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

Setamorphosis

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2017, 06:47:48 am »
@King Mob , I have an update for you:

The Draconian Path is very much connected with our path, so I recommend checking that out. The books "Apophis" & "Aegishjalmur The Book of Dragon Runes" seem worth looking into, especially if you're interested in Norse Magic, which I know you are.
"Darkness is just light turned inside out."
  --Beelzebub

Setamorphosis

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2017, 08:00:38 am »
Update #2:

The Path of Chaos encompasses not only ritualism, specific spiritual goals and beliefs, but also a way of life. To truly embrace chaos, one should learn how to be spontaneous, how to adapt quickly to different situations, to realize there is no personality, and no true-self.

What we call "I" is not an illusion, as right hand path people would like to have us believe. The "I" is the conscious agent experiencing the world. To call this an illusion would be foolish and laughable.

What IS an illusion is what we call "true-self" or "the real me" or "personality." Our personalities are simply information which we carry around and project in particular situations. What's more is that we don't project all of it, but a small aspect. When another person meets you, they DON'T really meet, YOU, the conscious agent. Instead, they meet a small aspect of who you are, an image, some information you decided or was forced to project in that particular situation.

As someone who is on The Path of Chaos, I acknowledge that there is no true-self or personality, but rather that I am a consciousness having an experience - which is all information based. As such, I as a person am malleable. I can be who I want to be whenever I want. This allows me to perform insight roles rather easily.

To live the life of chaos is not to be a vandal or some edgelord butthurt emo kid who wants to kill and destroy everything. Rather, it is to acknowledge all possibilities, all outcomes (the cost and benefits being crucial), be spontaneous, to understand that you, and this reality, are more malleable than we're told to believe.

I will post more on the ritualism and magic soon, but I just wanted to cover the chaos-lifestyle behind my path. There's more to it, but what I posted is a skeleton - my chaos-lifestyle in its rudimentary form.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 08:09:16 am by Setamorphosis »
"Darkness is just light turned inside out."
  --Beelzebub

King Mob

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2017, 12:58:21 pm »
I been recommended Apophis before so it seems like I will definitely have to look into that book.

I am skimming through it now and saw the following:

"The first thing that the Initiate learns, however, is that
he knows next to nothing of himself. The personality is a
hotch-potch of parental and societal conditioning, shaped and
reshaped by the media, advertising and selective education.
The first tasks for the student are to strip away the accretions
to finally reveal his own unsullied central core. This process
of self-revelation is the first opening of the Eye of Leviathan,
learning to see things - and particularly oneself - as they really are. Even this first realisation is difficult and time- consuming, much harder work than the majority of modern
people - and certainly the majority of occultists - are
prepared to commit themselves to. Add to this the fact that it
is always a frightening and disorienting experience that will
change the Initiate in irreversible ways and you don't really
need to wonder too hard why the Left-Hand Path is shunned
and feared. "


I agree with this sentiment and feel this demonstrates the power of chaos and the abyss and their role in the Left Hand Path. The following as well:

"In all cases, however, it will be found that three major
archetypes or Forms predominate within the Draconian
initiatory process and none of these may be safely excluded
from the Work. Indeed, there will be no Work at all unless
the Initiate can forge a vital personal link with each of these
divine beings, learning to recognise their promptings without
self-delusion, and to act decisively upon the guidance
received.

The first of these Forms is the Lord of Darkness, the
God of Consciousness. The second Form is the Scarlet
Woman, the Goddess of Desire. The third Form is the
Serpent, the Force for Remanifestation. Each of these is
discussed in some detail below. Through the Initiate's
interactions with these Deities, a new personal God will
ultimately arise if all is well done. This is the personal
Daemon - also called the Holy Guardian Angel by other
nomenclature - which will be discussed later in this book in
its proper place. "


This has become my philosophy when starting a LHP. However, I would add in a Luciferian archetype into this as well. If there is a God of Conciousness, there should also be a God of Gnosis. For me, Loki fits this role as God of the acosmic flame.

A lot of stuff in this stuff seems in line with my intuitive philosophy on Left Hand Path so I'll definitely download the book and read it in full sometimes.

Thanks for the recommendation, I can definitely see how it relates to our paths.

As for your other comment, I completely agre with this:

"As someone who is on The Path of Chaos, I acknowledge that there is no true-self or personality, but rather that I am a consciousness having an experience - which is all information based. As such, I as a person am malleable. I can be who I want to be whenever I want. This allows me to perform insight roles rather easily."

In my experience though, your created selves can gain a strong hold and convince you that they are your "true selves" if not kept in check. It's a danger of insight roles but insight roles are also a great way their own form of magic. I've heard them called para-personas or fiction suits as well which I prefer because I feel insight role implies it it to be used only for insight where as one can create a whole persona as a magical act to accomplish a goal.

This is why I said it depends on you define your "self" or "ego" earlier. I agree with you in that their is no true self except for the conciosness. The conciousness is the ego that the LHP seeks to develop in my opinion. The only to to realize the true strength of your conciousness is to realize the abyss. To become one with chaos, is to realize the symbiotic relationship between conciousness and the void. It the alchemical mix of the two that produces the gnosis neseccary to charge magic, in my opinion.
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

Liu

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2017, 01:06:19 pm »
The Draconian Path is very much connected with our path, so I recommend checking that out. The books "Apophis" & "Aegishjalmur The Book of Dragon Runes" seem worth looking into, especially if you're interested in Norse Magic, which I know you are.
Seconding this, I read Apophis and the beginning of Aegishjalmur a couple years ago, and they have some pretty sound practice recommendations. I was too much of a beginner at that time to get myself to actually do much of it at all, but I kinda want to start working through Aegishjalmur once I'm done reading a couple other books I have on my list.

Btw...
"awareness-information duality. "

Mind expanding more on this? Do you believe that we are all expressions of an infinite awareness, each and every one of us. Our individual consciousness being a point of focus, and that our brains decode the information around us, thus perceiving the world around us? That the world doesn't really exist, but it's just a product of us decoding information?

If not, I'd like to know more on this approach.

If so, that view doesn't necessarily contradict the anti-cosmic approach. It can still be reconciled.
Still not sure how to reconcile this, though.
Reading your last post I kinda think I know which solution you mean, but it's quite a bit different from what I normally associate with the anti-cosmic approach, so I'd like to ask you to explain that more specifically.

Setamorphosis

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2017, 01:26:28 am »
Sorry for the lack of responses, @Liu , I'm still developing and molding my "beliefs" on this matter. I want to respond when I have a solid grasp and most of the things worked out.
"Darkness is just light turned inside out."
  --Beelzebub

Setamorphosis

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2017, 01:30:47 am »
@King Mob ,

"To become one with chaos, is to realize the symbiotic relationship between conciousness and the void. It the alchemical mix of the two that produces the gnosis neseccary to charge magic, in my opinion. "

That's a beautiful way of putting it. I really couldn't have said it better myself. I think that The Void isn't a place per se, so one doesn't "go to The Void and live there" as an afterlife or something. Rather, I think a person develops, as you've said, a symbiotic bond with The Void, which consumes the person (the merging, or "ego death," in some sense) only to remanifest as a primordial, an expression of chaos. The person will still be conscious, but it won't be a person anymore. It'll be something akin to a demon, or a Lovecraftian entity.

It's an expression of chaos which is conscious, yet at the same time "one with the chaos." This expression can and will manifest in causal and be filtered through the Laws of Physics, but also exist outside of the causal.

At least, this is how I interpret it thus far.
"Darkness is just light turned inside out."
  --Beelzebub

King Mob

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2017, 11:33:24 pm »
@Setamorphosis I'd love to team up and compare personal gnosis after I do some practical work and we finish developing some of our beliefs, if you'd be up for that.

I feel like our Occult views line up extremely well and every text I have read thus far has not 100 percent satisfied me. There's a lot of great information out there but I feel like it's all missing a huge aspect of the over-all path/"truth"*. Anticosmicism rejects materialism. Most LHP reject disolvement. Draconic seems great but it seems more like opening your eye in the void with conciousness than merging with it. Someone correct me of I'm wrong. Temple of Set's Black Magick is great foundational concept with the microcosm/macrocosm split.

I like the name of Ascomicism you came up with. It seems to embrace the Lovecraftian indifference the perfected initiate of this path would embody in their perfected selves and perfecetly represent the path. Again, another issue I have. Lovecraftian stuff embraces working with these entities in Faustian terms. Which is great and I like, but I have some training to do before I reach that level realistically. Esotericon is sitting the corner of my room always tempting me though.  :o  But I've never seen anything indicating you could become a Lovecraftian deity in your own right. Only a avatar of an existing one which I don't care for as it gives up free will. 


I feel like if we both commit to this for a few months, we could come up with a detailed foundation for a really fresh, interesting, and original concept. I'd love to publish this in The Imperishable Star when that time comes. 

Oh, I also highly suggest Liber Nox in Liber Null & Psychonaut. I'd like to do some work with their Alphabet of Desire that enables Hedonism. I think this is the key to embracing both the physical world and keeping a cold detachment from it.

*meaning my subjective view of the truth
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

King Mob

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2017, 11:34:31 pm »
@Liu  If you begin working in the Draconian current, we would greatly appreciate your input as well!
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.

Setamorphosis

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2017, 12:19:05 am »
Quote
I'd love to team up and compare personal gnosis after I do some practical work and we finish developing some of our beliefs, if you'd be up for that.

@King Mob , definitely up for it!

Quote
Draconic seems great but it seems more like opening your eye in the void with conciousness than merging with it.

I followed my intuition on this matter; I refrained from exploring the Draconian path any further. It repelled me for whatever reason.

Quote
Lovecraftian stuff embraces working with these entities in Faustian terms. Which is great and I like, but I have some training to do before I reach that level realistically.

That's fine. The Faustian approach I proposed early on in this thread was because of my own "contract" with a particular being, who insisted on working with me, contacting me via synchronicity, dreams, etc. It was pretty mind-blowing to say the least, as these weren't your regular coincidences. These events were very specific, some of which include dreams of names I had never heard in my life, as well as receiving information I couldn't have possibly known.

Quote
But I've never seen anything indicating you could become a Lovecraftian deity in your own right. Only a avatar of an existing one which I don't care for as it gives up free will.

Maybe I'm just dismissive of Lovecraft, maybe not. But I acknowledge his work as fiction, and don't bother mixing it with occultism. Now, I know chaos magick's approach on this, but I don't like working with fictional entities, whether for symbolic purposes or otherwise. Going a step further, I dismiss any myths and legends related to said fiction. I think it's very much possible to become something akin to a Lovecraftian entity. By this, I mean developing a symbiotic relationship with The Void, and essentially being The Void incarnate.

Quote
I feel like if we both commit to this for a few months, we could come up with a detailed foundation for a really fresh, interesting, and original concept. I'd love to publish this in The Imperishable Star when that time comes.

Agreed. I say we post regularly in this thread, so that others can see. Of course, we could take it elsewhere if you have gnosis or information to share which is not supposed to be too public.

Quote
Oh, I also highly suggest Liber Nox in Liber Null & Psychonaut. I'd like to do some work with their Alphabet of Desire that enables Hedonism. I think this is the key to embracing both the physical world and keeping a cold detachment from it.

I read Liber Null & Psychonaut. It's what got me into chaos magick, actually.





« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 12:24:13 am by Setamorphosis »
"Darkness is just light turned inside out."
  --Beelzebub

King Mob

Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2017, 09:28:52 am »
@Setamorphosis I had that initial reaction to the Draconic path for whatever reason then my intuition and synchronicity told me to follow it at a later time and it just feels compeltely right for me. Do what thou wilt.

Ah, yeah the Faustian stuff seems of value to me. I'd like to do it as well just not at the moment. I need to awaken a few heads. It's more than valuable. I mean, it's needless to say as two LHP practioners we are going to have some disagreements or different styles and that's completely fine. It's great even. We can have some middle ground or even write our own papers regarding the different approaches to the Acosmic path. I, would over-all, like to have an outline like you have already came up with that simply has suggestions for the follower to pursue in any direction they'd like. For example, in Demonaltry you could write the over-all philosophy and I could write the Lovecraftian section for those who wish to follow it since it is not your thing. As a more practical example now, you will be following this path in your way, and you may have different and similar gnosis to me while I practice Draconic path. As a result, we'll have a more concrete foundational frame work with different suggestion on how to handle it as well as prove that you can tailor this system to your own individual preference which is necessity for any LHP system in my opinion.

I've actually never gave Lovecraft much thought or credence in the Occult either but Grant Morrison's NAMELESS is what lead me to consider LHP and Peter Carrol's Esotericon describes them as Transplutonic forces in Planetary magic. I like his grimoire of it. His biplanetary system for planetary magic as well as his Liber 555 for Elementary magic. It's such a useful book. It's the really only valid form of Lovecraft I've seen. I wouldn't give it much thought if it didn't indicate amazing forbidden knowledge in Faustian terms and have traditional grimoire workings in it. It's the chaos magic version of the Goetia to me, really. It's such a beatiful system he created. I think it's worth something that Lovecraft came up with most of his stories inspirations in his dreams and most Lovecraftian work occurs in the dream-scape. Either way though, I find the Lovecraftian diety the best symbolic example for what one would achieve in this path. They don't want entire destruction of the universe like anti-cosmic dieties. They just become indifferent as seeing it as insignificant compared to them as they have a much different understanding of it. Now, my concern here is I don't want to incorporate criminal behavior into it in any way which I know you don't as well. I feel all destruction should be limited to situations and the self for personal growh ala Liber Nox's Transmogrification. I mean, people might be emotionally hurt in the process as collateral damage but that's quite different than what the O9A encourages. We may have to put a disclaimer in when we officially publish this due to the less than reputable anticosmic branches that encourage it.

I've read Liber Null a long time ago but I like to revisit it every now and then to refresh my memory. I just did with Liber Nox last night and it aligns close with the LHP path view of Chaos naturally.

Also, it's needless to say that not ALL our magical workings have to be related to or recorded into this path if we explore other avenues at the same time. Which we should if Acosmicism and becoming one with chaos entails manifesting in multiple different possibilities.
"Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."- Nuit, Book of the Law.


xx
Opinions on LaVeyan Satanism?

Started by Ave Baphomet! on General LHP Discussion

10 Replies
310 Views
Last post September 09, 2017, 12:45:37 am
by Xepera maSet
xx
Any opinions on Dragon Rouge or Order of Apep?

Started by King Mob on General LHP Discussion

1 Replies
57 Views
Last post November 22, 2017, 06:19:26 pm
by King Mob
xx
To Setians who take the Platonic Form approach: I have some questions

Started by Setamorphosis on General LHP Discussion

16 Replies
544 Views
Last post October 30, 2017, 12:59:37 pm
by pi_ramesses
xx
Shouldn't Satanism be pro-cosmic?

Started by Kapalika on Satanism

49 Replies
451 Views
Last post December 08, 2017, 07:39:25 pm
by Kapalika