Author Topic: If materialism is true then logic cannot be objective.  (Read 129 times)

Xepera maSet

If materialism is true then logic cannot be objective.
« on: October 01, 2017, 03:20:51 am »
The most basic axiom of logic is the law of identity, that A is A. It is a name we assign the principle, letters made up by us, but what it describes is objectively true. However, logic is not something that we can define as material in nature. We can see examples of logic in use like with the law of identity, but those are simply examples and not logic itself. Basically if logic exists objectively, rather than being a creation of the human mind, it would be proof of something immaterial.

But if only matter exists, the only logic that can exist would be a totally made up system created by conscious beings. This would be the equivalent of believing that science doesn't tell us anything objective, we just make it up as we go along. If logic bends to the will of conscious beings, then all that has been built on it is basically a phantasm, including science.

1. If material monism is true only material things can objectively exist. (Objectively true)

2. Logic objectively exists. (the central debate)

3. Logic is immaterial. (Objectively true)

4. Therefore material monism cannot be true. (Valid, plausible, likely sound)
AKA: Three Scarabs, 1137

"The Degradation of the Great Bear, Draco, and other types of eternity,
 proved to be the creation of Hell."
- Kenneth Grant

Onyx

Re: If materialism is true then logic cannot be objective.
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2017, 01:25:41 pm »
To put what you wrote into my own words, two mistakes people make in my opinion are:

A. The assumption that all phenomena in the universe must be physical in nature to exist. As the phenomena of self-awareness and consciousness are immeasurable, this is clearly not the case.

B. The assumption that all logic is invented, rather than discovered. This is also incorrect, because our understanding of logic is largely based on testing the validity of theories against that which is observable.


Never again will I follow, I will choose my own path.

crossfire

Re: If materialism is true then logic cannot be objective.
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2017, 02:34:09 pm »
The most basic axiom of logic is the law of identity, that A is A. It is a name we assign the principle, letters made up by us, but what it describes is objectively true. However, logic is not something that we can define as material in nature. We can see examples of logic in use like with the law of identity, but those are simply examples and not logic itself. Basically if logic exists objectively, rather than being a creation of the human mind, it would be proof of something immaterial.

But if only matter exists, the only logic that can exist would be a totally made up system created by conscious beings. This would be the equivalent of believing that science doesn't tell us anything objective, we just make it up as we go along. If logic bends to the will of conscious beings, then all that has been built on it is basically a phantasm, including science.

1. If material monism is true only material things can objectively exist. (Objectively true)
This is faulty in that Materialism states the primacy of the material--all things, including consciousness, thoughts, and even logic arose from the material.

Quote
2. Logic objectively exists. (the central debate)

3. Logic is immaterial. (Objectively true)

4. Therefore material monism cannot be true. (Valid, plausible, likely sound)

Again, this is based upon misrepresenting material monism, so could be pointed out as a straw-man fallacy.
"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."
~Carl Jung

Xepera maSet

Re: If materialism is true then logic cannot be objective.
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2017, 03:02:18 pm »
But even if material monism is true, and logic is material in that it was created by the brain, logic still doesn't objectively exist. Unless I'm missing something, crossfire? How are you defining material monism?
AKA: Three Scarabs, 1137

"The Degradation of the Great Bear, Draco, and other types of eternity,
 proved to be the creation of Hell."
- Kenneth Grant

crossfire

Re: If materialism is true then logic cannot be objective.
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2017, 12:56:49 am »
But even if material monism is true, and logic is material in that it was created by the brain, logic still doesn't objectively exist. Unless I'm missing something, crossfire? How are you defining material monism?
Information exists objectively.  It may be abstract, but it objectively exists.  Likewise, cause-and-effect objectively exists, which arose from material monism.  Logic arose from describing cause and effect.  So you have got this chain of development:
Material>>>cause & effect>>>consciousness and communication>>>logic as a means of describing cause & effect.

Thoughts and information can be classified as sensory objects in that the sensory base for detecting thoughts and information is the mind.  (Just as visual consciousness detects light, auditory consciousness detects sounds, tactile consciousness detects form, heat, texture and other physical properties, olfactory detects odors, etc, the mind detects patterns and ideas.)
"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."
~Carl Jung


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