Author Topic: Is the LHP a form of spirituality?  (Read 423 times)

Deidre

Is the LHP a form of spirituality?
« on: May 21, 2018, 12:31:42 am »
Can you follow a god or higher power, if you are following the LHP path? Or is it more of a philosophy? I ran across an article tonight about how spirituality doesn't require faith, says some naturalists. So, it made me wonder about the LHP path, when it comes to spiritual ideas.

Here's the article:

http://www.naturalism.org/spirituality/spirituality-without-faith
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black

Olive

Re: Is the LHP a form of spirituality?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2018, 04:09:11 am »
Absolutely I think you can follow a deity/power/realm/ideal as LHP. I didn't read the entire article, but I do agree that spirituality does not require faith. And in fact, how can faith persist in the face of spiritual knowledge? There is no longer any need for it if one has a satisfying personal practice. It is not necessary to believe it is more than it is - although you can do so, if it helps produce better results or more understanding. But even then, the amplifying energy that is being harnessed is not in fact faith but Devotion, the fruit of the Will, which is one of the great catalysts for internal alchemy.

There are so many different types of practices I've seen in this movement that it is hard to speak categorically about the function of a deity in LHP. Some people have fundamentalist beliefs, others wear them like a glove, others make thoughtforms out of them, others worship them, others create them, others destroy them, and yet others become them. A deity is either an idol of the perfected self, or an idea which points at that which goes beyond all ideas, and which can therefore be used as both an ideological bedrock and roofing, even if it is only considered provisionally.
    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Kapalika

Re: Is the LHP a form of spirituality?
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2018, 04:24:11 am »
Can you follow a god or higher power, if you are following the LHP path? Or is it more of a philosophy? I ran across an article tonight about how spirituality doesn't require faith, says some naturalists. So, it made me wonder about the LHP path, when it comes to spiritual ideas.

Here's the article:

http://www.naturalism.org/spirituality/spirituality-without-faith


Hadn't read the article yet (was skimming forums) but I'm familiar with the idea. I would say ya you can have spirituality without any commitment to a belief or belief system, but I think such a thing isn't as fulfilling than a system that speaks to you and reinforces your experience.


I think that to follow the LHP you have to 'tap into' some kind of higher power, symbol or deity to identify with for the sake of the path. I don't really know how well it works without some kind of symbolism.


Where I think a lot of us on this forum and LHP in general (both traditional and modern) differs is we identify directly with deities. In Hinduism there are some forms of RHP that do this too, but generally not on the personal kind of scale that LHP does.



And in fact, how can faith persist in the face of spiritual knowledge? There is no longer any need for it if one has a satisfying personal practice.


I don't agree, but I assume that is because you are thinking faith = blind faith. Unfortunately Christianity and Islam has poisoned the well to speak, and made many people think that faith is unfounded belief.


Faith is just strong confidence or trust in something. So I would say i Have faith in Shiva and Satan, and yet have my beliefs based on more than just belief (evidence, reason ect).
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Olive

Re: Is the LHP a form of spirituality?
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2018, 05:30:45 am »
I don't agree, but I assume that is because you are thinking faith = blind faith. Unfortunately Christianity and Islam has poisoned the well to speak, and made many people think that faith is unfounded belief.

Faith is just strong confidence or trust in something. So I would say i Have faith in Shiva and Satan, and yet have my beliefs based on more than just belief (evidence, reason ect).

I don't have a problem with your system, but if we are calling a reasoned and evident position faith, then the word does not seem to have much meaning. And if you mean faith by spiritual apprehension, that is more akin to the knowledge I spoke of. Or if we mean faith as an application of will, then how is that different from devotion? What is left to us but to say faith is a belief which goes beyond what is rational and evident? It can be used as a tool knowingly, or it will shape you while remaining unseen. I think it can be very useful, and can even be essential in initiating people into an esoteric practice, but it is not necessary. If the principles are understood, the idol can be broken, and the practice can become even deeper for the adept.

But I am just speaking from my perspective and personal experience. I don't think you and I disagree on as much as the way we speak makes it seem sometimes. I respect your knowledge and thoughts on these matters.
    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Kapalika

Re: Is the LHP a form of spirituality?
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2018, 10:42:45 am »
I don't have a problem with your system,

I wouldn't of suspected you of having a problem with it.

but if we are calling a reasoned and evident position faith, then the word does not seem to have much meaning.


But see, this isn't true, the rest of your response appears to indicate that you missed what I actually said. The word still means what it means, even if we have become jaded to it due to the Christians and Muslims giving it a bad connotation.

But I am just speaking from my perspective and personal experience. I don't think you and I disagree on as much as the way we speak makes it seem sometimes. I respect your knowledge and thoughts on these matters.

I appreciate the gesture, but I'm not sure how much we do or do not agree on faith.

Perhaps a good way to  clarify it is that we often say things like "I have faith in you" when we want someone to do well. Faith is about trust, not about blind belief. Faith and belief are linked though, because I have to have confidence in what I am dedicating a large part of my life to.

It's more than that though, but it goes kind of beyond words at times. Maybe later the words will come to me to explain better what it is to have faith, from my perspective.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 10:46:50 am by Kapalika »
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Frater Sisyphus

Re: Is the LHP a form of spirituality?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2018, 05:20:28 am »
Nothing is black and white  ;)


As I've stated here before, I follow/believe in a RHP theology (pertaining to the nature of God and the universe) but a LHP form of ethics and individuality etc.

I do think that to an extent, hanging on to the L. vs R. mindset slips us back into dualistic thinking. Although, different religions here have different surrounding such a thing (such as the Setian view of consciousness, or the Taoist view of the self etc)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 05:22:32 am by Frater Sisyphus »

Kapalika

Re: Is the LHP a form of spirituality?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2018, 06:17:18 am »
disclaimer I'm a little buzzed

Nothing is black and white  ;)

As I've stated here before, I follow/believe in a RHP theology (pertaining to the nature of God and the universe) but a LHP form of ethics and individuality etc.

I do think that to an extent, hanging on to the L. vs R. mindset slips us back into dualistic thinking. Although, different religions here have different surrounding such a thing (such as the Setian view of consciousness, or the Taoist view of the self etc)

I just want to say I really love this post, I think you got it down! People get hanged out with RHP vs LHP beliefs but the truth is, it's about differences practice, attitudes, ethics and method. Yes, LHP is individualistic, it comes iwth the territory, but it's that way because of the attitude and ethics. Why I say Satanism ect doesn't have a proper RHP to mirror it is traditionally LHP is mirroring a RHP sect it shares most of it's beliefs with, with perhaps some specific changes.

I also agree that the distinction of LHP and RHP need not be a label that we get caught up in... I use it descriptively and I think we need to remember that words are just for convenience... we need to identify with the unspoken heart of the beliefs and practice, not by the signifers of it; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics

For me the best term for the core thing I identify with is "Shivagama" or "Aham" or Satan. Notice the former is the process of becoming Shiva while retaining individualization, and the latter is a noun ("heart"). None are labels (although I guess you could say "I am my heart"). I could say I am Satan, another noun... a title even, but "Satanist" is a label. Making my identiy based on being a "Satanist" means I have a checklist... realizing I have a deep inner nature that best aligns with the word "Satan" means I'm not hinging on some definition of Satan, but am using the word that best fits what i believe, do and experience.

This is also why I seamlessly meld Kashmir Shaivism and Satanism. I think it speaks to the same truth, but in different symbols and languages. To me they are one in the same and I'm just alternating to the other to more easily inform the other for a more complete understanding, since i can always see the same thing I'm pondering from a second cultural perspective and set of symbols.

Not that anything is wrong for labels, as long as we see them for what they are and try to stick to that which is most accurate.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 06:21:31 am by Kapalika »
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Deidre

Re: Is the LHP a form of spirituality?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2018, 09:50:48 pm »
Absolutely I think you can follow a deity/power/realm/ideal as LHP. I didn't read the entire article, but I do agree that spirituality does not require faith. And in fact, how can faith persist in the face of spiritual knowledge? There is no longer any need for it if one has a satisfying personal practice. It is not necessary to believe it is more than it is - although you can do so, if it helps produce better results or more understanding. But even then, the amplifying energy that is being harnessed is not in fact faith but Devotion, the fruit of the Will, which is one of the great catalysts for internal alchemy.

There are so many different types of practices I've seen in this movement that it is hard to speak categorically about the function of a deity in LHP. Some people have fundamentalist beliefs, others wear them like a glove, others make thoughtforms out of them, others worship them, others create them, others destroy them, and yet others become them. A deity is either an idol of the perfected self, or an idea which points at that which goes beyond all ideas, and which can therefore be used as both an ideological bedrock and roofing, even if it is only considered provisionally.

I really appreciate the depth in your answer. I agree, that spirituality is such an abstract thing, yet a personal thing, too. Does that make sense? I find myself drawn to the spiritual world, and maybe some of that comes from my upbringing...with Christianity. I feel tuned in to the RHP, and the LHP leaves so much mystery to me. I agree about your take on the LHP, it seems like in some circles, there are people who ''worship'' something outside of themselves, and this world. Maybe another realm, or maybe God, yet also adhere to certain ideas within the LHP. I think both could be possible.
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black

Deidre

Re: Is the LHP a form of spirituality?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2018, 09:53:38 pm »
I don't have a problem with your system,

I wouldn't of suspected you of having a problem with it.

but if we are calling a reasoned and evident position faith, then the word does not seem to have much meaning.


But see, this isn't true, the rest of your response appears to indicate that you missed what I actually said. The word still means what it means, even if we have become jaded to it due to the Christians and Muslims giving it a bad connotation.

But I am just speaking from my perspective and personal experience. I don't think you and I disagree on as much as the way we speak makes it seem sometimes. I respect your knowledge and thoughts on these matters.

I appreciate the gesture, but I'm not sure how much we do or do not agree on faith.

Perhaps a good way to  clarify it is that we often say things like "I have faith in you" when we want someone to do well. Faith is about trust, not about blind belief. Faith and belief are linked though, because I have to have confidence in what I am dedicating a large part of my life to.

It's more than that though, but it goes kind of beyond words at times. Maybe later the words will come to me to explain better what it is to have faith, from my perspective.

Yes, you touch upon something very important here, and I'm glad you bring it up. When I mean ''faith,'' I mean...faith in the supernatural. Faith in someone or something outside of us...watching over us, kind of thing. Not merely the colloquial way of defining faith as in ''I have faith that this or that will happen...."
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black

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Re: Is the LHP a form of spirituality?
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2018, 12:54:00 am »
Bump

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