Author Topic: What are your beliefs about Satan?  (Read 324 times)

Deidre

What are your beliefs about Satan?
« on: August 12, 2017, 06:24:25 pm »
I've been thinking about this lately, how does an atheist reconcile a belief in Satan? If one is agnostic or an atheist, yet wishes to follow the LHP, how can Satan be viewed? I ask because as a former Christian, my views on Satan were traditionally that he opposed God, that he was the ''Prince of Darkness'' with no good things in store for humankind. So, just wondering, how do you all view Satan - as a real entity, and in opposition to God? Or do you view him as something else, maybe just a concept?
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black

Xepera maSet

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2017, 08:32:50 pm »
Satan doesn't really hold any place for me outside of shock value, he's forever lost to judeo-christian ideology in my opinion.
"You look up into the night sky - whether as a child or an adult - and if you open yourself honestly, then it is a gateway to mystery, to the unknown."
- Dr. Stephen E. Flowers

Deidre

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2017, 08:58:54 pm »
Satan doesn't really hold any place for me outside of shock value, he's forever lost to judeo-christian ideology in my opinion.

I remember reading something about LaVey recently, and that's how he felt (about the shock value)

I agree with you, what a shame that I can't shake the old narrative. :/
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black

Xepera maSet

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2017, 09:06:01 pm »
That depends if you mean pre or post 1975 LaVey, haha.
"You look up into the night sky - whether as a child or an adult - and if you open yourself honestly, then it is a gateway to mystery, to the unknown."
- Dr. Stephen E. Flowers

Kapalika

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2017, 04:52:47 am »
I've expressed my views overall else where but maybe in short, covering some more specific things;

Edit:  A lot of this isn't something I've really put to words in a number of years (and a lot others not very often) so the explanation might be kinda sloppy. My apologies in advance.

1. Satan, which means "opposition" is the primordial, most primeval force of reality as we know it. Darkness emanating from his core essence that births the pure-impure. Christianity (and to a similar extent Islam), true to their roots, sees everything around them as "evil". They seek to purify themselves and it's written in their teachings that all "fall short of the glory of god". To them, perfection is some kind of static, place with no sin. But they way they define sin would mean that there wouldn't be much of anything, let alone anything worthwhile. In this way Christianity did not invent Satan but gave a name to it. To me, Satanism is defending those cosmic truths against all, not just the Abrahamics. They want the absence of opposition which more or less equals destruction of everything (not just nature). This will become a little more clear below. Maybe part of the reason I gravitate towards Satan is I see them as the first to unwittingly identify this principle in their efforts to destroy it. A lot of the gnostics wanted to destroy the universe and so it doesn't suprise me that we see traces of this still in Christianity today.

2. Satan, which means "accuser" of one who had this title acted as an arch-angel and prosecutor, a tester and agent for Yahweh to the ancient Hebrews. Their actual faith was heno-theistic and there are strong clues even in the OT that what we consider Yahweh was formed from many different deities. This god of the OT is quite different from the Christian god although they have the same "ancestors". This isn't to say that a Satanist serves Yahweh. Rather the title and place of this Satan shows that the class of spirit exists. I personally believe that this service for that specific Satan could of been temporary and likely was if it was true (maybe even that Satan was working against their will, and so why they took up the job of tempting and testing the faithless), but it could of been a reinterpretation of something more ancient (as the Hebrews tended to absorb elements of those around them or they killed off. So seeing Satan as the prosecutor of a god or gods in accordance with what they stand for can be generalized.

3. Satan as an archetype; the reflection of the cosmic emenations of Satan in our psyche. This can manifest in many ways and those who take on these archetypes of the more nobleish variety tend to become Satans in the sense of 2. However this isn't nessisarily so as the attributes emulating those cosmic forces are diverse. One can be Satanic in many different ways. This could just be a matter of personality or 'alignment' (so to speak).

Those are a few layers of how I think of Satan. As a symbol, Satan is kind of a total sum of all the layers. "Satan" is in itself to me a whole value system. Maybe a better way to put it is that Satan is a nondual pantheistic entity from which flows duality and some of those dualities form "currents" on which the other layers manifest and express in different ways. Some of those as in my 3 points above show it can be different flavors of polytheism as well as more psychological. Those ways which most align with the more cosmic level of Satan I would call "Satanic". Not everything is Satanic of course. Satanic is more of the realization of the interplay of those close attributes/forces/values and it's that interplay that becomes the focus. So through opposing movements and forces things balance out.

Basically without conflict things can't exist. Conflict doesn't have to be unpleasant or bad... if I can find it I once wrote something that explained this as physical phenomena... say the sun has outward force of radiation pressure that counters gravity so the sun doesn't collapse. And Gravity opposes the radiation pressure so it doesn't fly away. That is a good example (metaphor?) of of positional forces. Some might call this "balance" but people tend to not really get the meaning when you say that. They think of a scale, where  when balanced it seems to not move and there is no force despite the forces being equal. In nature it's more of the swinging back and forth of forces that shape reality not a perfect stillless balance. Overall there is balance but Satan is more about recognizing extremes and seeing that individual variance in a more minute perception.

This isn't just about physical nature though, but abstract and spiritual nature as well. Physical is just the best example. Satan encompasses the creation of all of those but manifests most obviously in physical nature and in some elements of the spiritual with it's roots in the nondual state (from which the physical and abstract form). Most abstract examples I can think of lie in the mental and so would be ashudda (impure) and so the most far removed from that source... but since it's in such an opposite of Satan it is in some ways also very Satanic as it is opposing Satan itself! (I can give an example if that explanation isn't sufficient).

I could go on and on and explain what this means for live and practice and all of that but eh I hope that explains what Satan is to me in at least some sense of the word. This isn't something I've really put to words in a number of years so the explanation might be kinda sloppy. But I think you get the big picture.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 05:02:12 am by Kapalika »
My Music // My Blog

Formerly known as Shamira

Kapalika

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2017, 05:03:01 am »
Ugh my bad that was way too long winded and probably a little confusing.

This makes more sense with proper charts. A while ago I started updating my old charts with what I've learned since so my thoughts on it lately have been pretty abstract and non-wordy as of late, analyzing the relationships. But progress is slow due to the inter-relationships being fairly complex and I've been trying to get it clean-looking and optimized which is a challenge unto itself outside of making sure everything is correct and consistent.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 05:10:27 am by Kapalika »
My Music // My Blog

Formerly known as Shamira

Nylfmedli14

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2017, 07:25:16 am »
Satan doesn't really hold any place for me outside of shock value, he's forever lost to judeo-christian ideology in my opinion.

I am of this opinion as well. I think that when I share how Satan is a bastardization of Set-hen (Eternal Set) and share the story of Rameses II with reliable sources, it seems a more effective approach to get the point across. But not by much.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 07:28:37 am by Nylfmedli14 »
Pro omnis viae sinistra.

Nylfmedli14

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2017, 07:27:54 am »
Ugh my bad that was way too long winded and probably a little confusing.

This makes more sense with proper charts. A while ago I started updating my old charts with what I've learned since so my thoughts on it lately have been pretty abstract and non-wordy as of late, analyzing the relationships. But progress is slow due to the inter-relationships being fairly complex and I've been trying to get it clean-looking and optimized which is a challenge unto itself outside of making sure everything is correct and consistent.

@Kapalika looking forward to seeing this.
Pro omnis viae sinistra.

Deidre

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2017, 10:30:35 am »


Basically without conflict things can't exist. Conflict doesn't have to be unpleasant or bad... if I can find it I once wrote something that explained this as physical phenomena... say the sun has outward force of radiation pressure that counters gravity so the sun doesn't collapse. And Gravity opposes the radiation pressure so it doesn't fly away. That is a good example (metaphor?) of of positional forces. Some might call this "balance" but people tend to not really get the meaning when you say that. They think of a scale, where  when balanced it seems to not move and there is no force despite the forces being equal. In nature it's more of the swinging back and forth of forces that shape reality not a perfect stillless balance. Overall there is balance but Satan is more about recognizing extremes and seeing that individual variance in a more minute perception.

This isn't just about physical nature though, but abstract and spiritual nature as well. Physical is just the best example. Satan encompasses the creation of all of those but manifests most obviously in physical nature and in some elements of the spiritual with it's roots in the nondual state (from which the physical and abstract form). Most abstract examples I can think of lie in the mental and so would be ashudda (impure) and so the most far removed from that source... but since it's in such an opposite of Satan it is in some ways also very Satanic as it is opposing Satan itself! (I can give an example if that explanation isn't sufficient).

I could go on and on and explain what this means for live and practice and all of that but eh I hope that explains what Satan is to me in at least some sense of the word. This isn't something I've really put to words in a number of years so the explanation might be kinda sloppy. But I think you get the big picture.

How you describe conflict, I have tears in my eyes. Conflict has always been my nemesis, for want of a better word. I used to argue a lot with my dad, he didn't treat me well growing up, I think I've shared that elsewhere before. He apologized to me for how he treated me as a kid, and yes, we have mended fences, but the mechanism of which I designed to cope with the conflicts I had with him, is retreat. I don't like conflict, and since looking into the LHP, it's being revealed to me different ways to cope with it. Not to ignore it, or seek revenge, but to accept it as part of life, as you describe here. It's not contrary to life, it is part of life, itself. Your views on Satan resonate with mine, and coming from a Christian background, it's confusing to undo certain narratives. I never really viewed conflict as coming from an evil force of some type, but I just have always found it mysterious, and this desire to have a pain-free life without any suffering, isn't realistic. In Buddhism, the teachings about how our suffering is from clinging to things, to people, to situations. To somehow live detached, yet involved is challenging. When it comes to my understanding of Lucifer, he seems like an illuminator of our carnal wants and desires, but not so that we indulge in them, but rather we seek to find out where they come from. Is it part of human nature, to merely want to chase our desires, or should we attempt to figure out why we have them? We are capable of thinking beyond instinct, so that could be where the Christian spin on things came in, to getting us to 'overcome' our primal selves, and live a life elevated beyond just chasing indulgences. For such a life, will leave one unhappy. Maybe even Lucifer himself, should he exist, and that is why he is restless. He has always struck me as a restless character, uneasy with himself. And he knows why, and he wants us to know why we are. I think that is how he can help us, in my own humble opinion about all of this.

Thank you for taking the time to share this, and explain it well!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 10:35:24 am by Deidre »
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black

Onyx

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2017, 11:42:02 am »
Atheistic Satanism uses the term Satan symbolically. Anton LaVey sought to hold Christianity's feet to the fire, having seen much hypocrisy in that religion, and re-appropriated their adversarial symbol to become one that represented the individual. I use the term Satan in that context, but personally believe in a literal deity as the activator of isolate intelligence and self-awareness, and Set is a better symbol for that.

I don't think the clockwork of the natural universe requires an omniscient god to make it function, but self-awareness is required for it to be experienced. The demonization of Selfhood by many religions, in my opinion, stems from the fact that our metaphysical reality can be a rather uncomfortable one.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 11:56:40 am by Onyx »

Kapalika

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2017, 09:54:37 pm »
How you describe conflict, I have tears in my eyes. Conflict has always been my nemesis, for want of a better word. I used to argue a lot with my dad, he didn't treat me well growing up, I think I've shared that elsewhere before.

I thought I expressed (looking back I really didn't) that that doesn't mean we should embrace interpersonal conflict (although in some cases maybe so, if a confrontation is the most rational thing to do at the time). But ya, it's bound to happen just due to nature. We shouldn't seek that conflict but we should recognize what's going on if we want it resolved a certain way. Assertiveness over aggression, IMO. Only 2 examples I can think of where conflict should be embraced is in some kind of dire situation or when someone needs to be brought accountable for their actions. Those two are not too common day to day.

I'm sorry though about that, and sparking any memories :(

Quote
Your views on Satan resonate with mine, and coming from a Christian background, it's confusing to undo certain narratives. I never really viewed conflict as coming from an evil force of some type, but I just have always found it mysterious, and this desire to have a pain-free life without any suffering, isn't realistic. In Buddhism, the teachings about how our suffering is from clinging to things, to people, to situations. To somehow live detached, yet involved is challenging.

That's why (as per Buddhism) there are many practices and ways to help people overcome it and different interpretations on what degree of it is the best. The Christian thing, I don't think they see conflict as evil, since they love to start it and force it on others. I find interpersonal conflict really stressful and just avoid it if I can. I also used to have a bad temper so it's also in a way to avoid the potential for that to come bubbling back up which once in a very blue moon it does.

Quote
When it comes to my understanding of Lucifer, he seems like an illuminator of our carnal wants and desires, but not so that we indulge in them, but rather we seek to find out where they come from. Is it part of human nature, to merely want to chase our desires, or should we attempt to figure out why we have them? We are capable of thinking beyond instinct, so that could be where the Christian spin on things came in, to getting us to 'overcome' our primal selves, and live a life elevated beyond just chasing indulgences. For such a life, will leave one unhappy. Maybe even Lucifer himself, should he exist, and that is why he is restless. He has always struck me as a restless character, uneasy with himself. And he knows why, and he wants us to know why we are. I think that is how he can help us, in my own humble opinion about all of this.

My view is a bit' different but I get where you are coming from. Actually in a lot of my early practice I had a lot of what you are describing happen with me, with things I'd call spirits.

Perhaps, as it was with me back then. This is some kind of sign or call that you need to do that self-exploration. Unfettered by any religion as you are right now it's a good time to just try things you always thought of doing. Or even just looking into yourself to find it.

Quote
Thank you for taking the time to share this, and explain it well!

I try! Thanks for listening to me babble! :D
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 10:15:42 pm by Kapalika »
My Music // My Blog

Formerly known as Shamira

Neutrino

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2017, 10:34:09 pm »
Satan, or "el shatain" in Hebrew means adversary. They called everything that went against their Abrahamic beliefs thousands of years ago Satan; of the enemy.

I believe Satan to be just that, a description of anything against Abrahamic beliefs. So in a sense, I am a Satanist...although I prefer not to call myself a Satanist because this would justify Christian philosophies or give them some type of credit on some level...im just a person!

Enki/Enkidu/Ea is "lucifer" (Enki truly is a bringer of light!)...his faction want humanity to advance to their level "to be gods"...whereas Michael's faction..the stupid fucking angels..want humanity wiped out and kept from advancing in any way shape or form...

Kapalika

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2017, 10:07:56 am »
Satan, or "el shatain" in Hebrew means adversary.

Are you sure that's how it was pronounced in Hebrew? That seems more Arabic almost.

They called everything that went against their Abrahamic beliefs thousands of years ago Satan; of the enemy.

I believe Satan to be just that, a description of anything against Abrahamic beliefs.

That might be true of the Muslims and Christians but not the Jews.

Enki/Enkidu/Ea is "lucifer" (Enki truly is a bringer of light!)...his faction want humanity to advance to their level "to be gods"...whereas Michael's faction..the stupid fucking angels..want humanity wiped out and kept from advancing in any way shape or form...

It's one thing to form your own beliefs about entities it's another to assert something historically dubious (linking Enki to Lucifer).
My Music // My Blog

Formerly known as Shamira

Onyx

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2017, 10:20:23 am »
Quote
Enki/Enkidu/Ea is "lucifer" (Enki truly is a bringer of light!)...his faction want humanity to advance to their level "to be gods"...whereas Michael's faction..the stupid fucking angels..want humanity wiped out and kept from advancing in any way shape or form...

Note the quotation marks.

Kapalika

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2017, 10:32:39 am »
My bad, just the way it was phrased had given me flashbacks to arguing with JoS types lol. I missed the quotation marks.
My Music // My Blog

Formerly known as Shamira


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