Author Topic: What are your beliefs about Satan?  (Read 865 times)

pi_ramesses

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2017, 12:47:23 pm »
In the NAB, Isaiah 14:12 reads:


How you have fallen from the heavens,
O Morning Star,* son of the dawn!
How you have been cut down to the earth,
you who conquered nations!i


The asterisk reads:
* [14:12] Morning Star: term addressed to the king of Babylon. The Vulgate translates as “Lucifer,” a name applied by the church Fathers to Satan. Son of the dawn: Heb., ben shahar, may reflect the name of a pagan deity.

Another passage
i. [14:12] Jb 14:10.

@Deidre When you have time, let us know how it's translated in ESV.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 12:52:09 pm by Nylfmedli14 »
Pro omnis dominos viae sinistra, sic itur ad astra
Nylfmedli14

Deidre

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2017, 12:49:03 pm »
It is also talking about a king but not the part about casting Lucifer out of heaven. A human king wouldn't be cast out of heaven. Even if it's all 'lore, it logically reads like Lucifer was an angel that was cast out of heaven and then became Satan. My own view of Satan is pretty neutral but these passages are what they are and I just found them curious.

Venus. Read the catholic link. It was literally talking about the "morning star" as in Venus.

It's a poetic expression. It only seems like it was talking about the devil and logical as that is what you were raised to believe by modern Protestants based on intentionally deceptive translations. I explained that all in my previous (larger) post. It's all based on lies.

I'm not meaning to be rude, it's just it feels like you glossed over all I took the time and effort to post about it.

I didn't gloss over it but I'm at work and can't reply in detail right now :/
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black

Xepera maSet

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2017, 12:49:16 pm »
It is also talking about a king but not the part about casting Lucifer out of heaven. A human king wouldn't be cast out of heaven. Even if it's all 'lore, it logically reads like Lucifer was an angel that was cast out of heaven and then became Satan. My own view of Satan is pretty neutral but these passages are what they are and I just found them curious.

As was pointed out, it seems this was an illustrative comparison to the planet Venus, which is in the heavens. Babylon is also associated with an attempt to build a tower which literally reached into heaven.
AKA: Three Scarabs, 1137

"You look up into the night sky - whether as a child or an adult - and if you open yourself honestly, then it is a gateway to mystery, to the unknown."

pi_ramesses

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2017, 12:51:09 pm »
@Kapalika @Xepera maSet  Yes. It is well known that Venus is both the Morning Star and the Evening Star.
Pro omnis dominos viae sinistra, sic itur ad astra
Nylfmedli14

Deidre

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2017, 12:51:21 pm »
If there's no dogma in the LHP, why am I always being corrected by people following this path? Sigh. I'm merely sharing what I've read not convincing anyone to agree. I'm neutral on it.
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black

Deidre

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2017, 12:55:59 pm »
It is also talking about a king but not the part about casting Lucifer out of heaven. A human king wouldn't be cast out of heaven. Even if it's all 'lore, it logically reads like Lucifer was an angel that was cast out of heaven and then became Satan. My own view of Satan is pretty neutral but these passages are what they are and I just found them curious.

As was pointed out, it seems this was an illustrative comparison to the planet Venus, which is in the heavens. Babylon is also associated with an attempt to build a tower which literally reached into heaven.

Okay ...it's all up to interpretation for sure, but I don't think most Christians see it that way so it's important to help them understand what other interpretations are, imo.
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black

pi_ramesses

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2017, 01:01:44 pm »
@Deidre Mea culpa. I am not invalidating your interpretation. On the contrary, Lucifer was the term used in the translation for the Latin Vulgate. Not the Greek Septuagint. I find it interesting that in most debates concerning the Bible, it comes down to the translation. I like to see all the perspectives. Even the asterisked footnote in my translation raises the question as to what pagan deity it refers.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 01:41:30 pm by Nylfmedli14 »
Pro omnis dominos viae sinistra, sic itur ad astra
Nylfmedli14

Kapalika

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2017, 01:03:31 pm »
It is also talking about a king but not the part about casting Lucifer out of heaven. A human king wouldn't be cast out of heaven. Even if it's all 'lore, it logically reads like Lucifer was an angel that was cast out of heaven and then became Satan. My own view of Satan is pretty neutral but these passages are what they are and I just found them curious.

As was pointed out, it seems this was an illustrative comparison to the planet Venus, which is in the heavens. Babylon is also associated with an attempt to build a tower which literally reached into heaven.

Holy crap, that didn't even occur to me. That makes much more sense as to why they used that metaphor then.

If there's no dogma in the LHP, why am I always being corrected by people following this path? Sigh. I'm merely sharing what I've read not convincing anyone to agree. I'm neutral on it.

Dogma isn't the same as being factually correct about what it originally and historically meant before the understanding changed a few short hundred years ago. If I were laying down some kind of doctrine or theology that's one thing, rather this is more so the history of the theology and recognizing how it changed over time.

So it's a matter of history rather than what one should personally believe. However to believe the modern Protestant view isn't Biblical from an originalist but only a revisionist perspective. That's my point. If you want to believe in the revisionist version feel free, I've taken inspiration from it as well but I recognize it for what it is (revisionist).
My Music and Blog // My Chatroom
My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmāchāra (LHP)
"God and the individual are one, to realize this is the essence of Shaivism.” - Lakshman Joo

Deidre

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2017, 01:11:51 pm »
It is also talking about a king but not the part about casting Lucifer out of heaven. A human king wouldn't be cast out of heaven. Even if it's all 'lore, it logically reads like Lucifer was an angel that was cast out of heaven and then became Satan. My own view of Satan is pretty neutral but these passages are what they are and I just found them curious.

As was pointed out, it seems this was an illustrative comparison to the planet Venus, which is in the heavens. Babylon is also associated with an attempt to build a tower which literally reached into heaven.

Holy crap, that didn't even occur to me. That makes much more sense as to why they used that metaphor then.

If there's no dogma in the LHP, why am I always being corrected by people following this path? Sigh. I'm merely sharing what I've read not convincing anyone to agree. I'm neutral on it.

Dogma isn't the same as being factually correct about what it originally and historically meant before the understanding changed a few short hundred years ago. If I were laying down some kind of doctrine or theology that's one thing, rather this is more so the history of the theology and recognizing how it changed over time.

So it's a matter of history rather than what one should personally believe. However to believe the modern Protestant view isn't Biblical from an originalist but only a revisionist perspective. That's my point. If you want to believe in the revisionist version feel free, I've taken inspiration from it as well but I recognize it for what it is (revisionist).

My parents are Catholic and I was raised in that religion. And they believe as do most Catholics that Satan is a real entity and his "creator" was God (created as the angel Lucifer, became Satan after he was cast out of heaven etc)(God of Abraham etc) Most Protestants believe this too but many don't discuss the other interpretations. There are different views of Satan in various religions and cultures but since I'm reading the Bible again, I just wanted to share those passages, which don't seem all that open to interpretation, but it's just a matter of if one believes it or not.

I've been reading a lot about Satan and all the folklore surrounding him and it's interesting how the stories differ, I think.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 01:20:06 pm by Deidre »
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black

Kapalika

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2017, 01:26:21 pm »
My parents are Catholic and I was raised in that religion. And they believe as do most Catholics that Satan is a real entity and his "creator" was God (God of Abraham etc) Most Protestants believe this too but many don't discuss the other interpretations. There are different views of Satan in various religions and cultures but since I'm reading the Bible again, I just wanted to share those passages, which don't seem all that open to interpretation, but it's just a matter of if one believes it or not.

I've been reading a lot about Satan and all the folklore surrounding him and it's interesting how the stories differ, I think.

Well ya they believe in Satan.  I was more referring to Lucifer however. I hadn't intended to invalidate any feelings or beliefs you had on the subject.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm
http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=7252

Seems in my experience and double checking Catholics are originalists inline with the Jews when it comes to Isaiah. Also there is always Who was a saint.

I'm a Hindu and Satanist so I don't actually believe either interpretation. I just have a tendency to use originalist interpretations in my inspiration and in discussions. Everyone is familiar with the contemporary and many less so with the older views.

I'm not sure about the Catholic view on Satan falling (or really any other nuance from the Protestant version), however. I'm more just familiar with what they said about Lucifer. This all mostly due to my interest in debunking Evangelicals lol.
My Music and Blog // My Chatroom
My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmāchāra (LHP)
"God and the individual are one, to realize this is the essence of Shaivism.” - Lakshman Joo

pi_ramesses

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2017, 02:14:33 pm »
But I think it's great that we are seeing both sides. Taking it for what it says and using Biblical criticism. If I approach it for what it says: why does Isaiah 14:16 refer to a man in my NAB translation?

Upon further consideration, I don't think when I'm reading that I separate the two. I usually find that I am riddled with questions.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 05:04:43 pm by Nylfmedli14 »
Pro omnis dominos viae sinistra, sic itur ad astra
Nylfmedli14

Deidre

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2017, 03:25:23 pm »
There's a lot that could be true about the spirit world but maybe it's too much to humanly fathom. Like we only know things from when Time began...but what might have existed "before time" as we know it? Before the Big Bang, there was "nothing" but not in the way we use that term. Could something be created from nothing? "Nothing" was just an absence of time and space as we know it but what might have been before actual time? A spiritual world of some type? I think it's cool to think about, and that sounds like what the Bible was attempting to illustrate?
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black

pi_ramesses

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2017, 04:53:36 pm »
Although this might belong in the lounge, has anyone seen the Lucifer series that airs primetime? It's funny because the protagonist's name is Lucifer Morningstar. There are two seasons of it. It follows the popular revisionist view. But I was surprised to hear of Amenadiel, as I was not aware of that name. It was kind of like a mind-blowing moment like a similar one I had watching Constantine. In Constantine, the angel Gabriel was feminine. And then I thought, "Wait a minute". When I looked it up, that was true and that the church fathers had something to do with our thinking of most angels as masculine. Really, angels don't have gender since they aren't human. Unless you are referring to Nephilim as they wanted the opposite.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 05:10:11 pm by Nylfmedli14 »
Pro omnis dominos viae sinistra, sic itur ad astra
Nylfmedli14

pi_ramesses

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2017, 05:08:44 pm »
There's a lot that could be true about the spirit world but maybe it's too much to humanly fathom. Like we only know things from when Time began...but what might have existed "before time" as we know it? Before the Big Bang, there was "nothing" but not in the way we use that term. Could something be created from nothing? "Nothing" was just an absence of time and space as we know it but what might have been before actual time? A spiritual world of some type? I think it's cool to think about, and that sounds like what the Bible was attempting to illustrate?

I agree.
Pro omnis dominos viae sinistra, sic itur ad astra
Nylfmedli14

Deidre

Re: What are your beliefs about Satan?
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2017, 05:38:54 pm »
Although this might belong in the lounge, has anyone seen the Lucifer series that airs primetime? It's funny because the protagonist's name is Lucifer Morningstar. There are two seasons of it. It follows the popular revisionist view. But I was surprised to hear of Amenadiel, as I was not aware of that name. It was kind of like a mind-blowing moment like a similar one I had watching Constantine. In Constantine, the angel Gabriel was feminine. And then I thought, "Wait a minute". When I looked it up, that was true and that the church fathers had something to do with our thinking of most angels as masculine. Really, angels don't have gender since they aren't human. Unless you are referring to Nephilim as they wanted the opposite.

Church fathers = Catholic Church?
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black


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