2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist

[Etu Malku]

Thanks for the replies!

Perhaps this explanation is closer to what you are looking for . . .
The objective universe is simply a self-perpetuating mechanism. The majority of religions and faiths believe they are tapping into some kind of Universal Mind, yet they are simply aligning their conscious awareness with a mechanism which in truth is of non-mind and is not cognizant sentience. They flood their brains with happy waves of theta and are thus deceived into the feeling of being connected to something greater than their local mind. The Work of the Mystai (western left hand path) is not directed towards this, this is not our path. Our path is that of developing our proto-conscious field and connecting with our nonlocal mind (Self). By doing so we create a bridge from this reality to our Greater Self's reality and thus we are changed from human to something more than human.
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- from the Texts of H☿D

My beliefs are somewhere between what you describe as the practice of the majority of religions and what you describe as western left hand path:
I consider the self a part of that mechanism that also the objective universe is part of.
What would be the reason to distinguish between a local and a non-local mind?

From my experience, one is either on the Right or the Left Hand Path, it is illogical to be on both at once. When I use the word 'self' (small 's') I am referring to the local mind self, our conscious mind in the objective universe. When I use a capital 'S' I refer to our nonlocal mind, the one which is that of our Greater Self and which is not part of the objective universe.

This non-local mind (Self) and our ability to become consciously aware of it, is integral to the Western Left Hand Path. Many refer to it as apotheosis or autotheism, I understand it as something similar to, but different in many ways regarding those two definitions.

[Liu]

From my experience, one is either on the Right or the Left Hand Path, it is illogical to be on both at once.

From my experience, you can ask 10 people who identify as LHPer or RHPer for a definition of either and get 10 different replies.

When I use the word 'self' (small 's') I am referring to the local mind self, our conscious mind in the objective universe. When I use a capital 'S' I refer to our nonlocal mind, the one which is that of our Greater Self and which is not part of the objective universe.

This non-local mind (Self) and our ability to become consciously aware of it, is integral to the Western Left Hand Path. Many refer to it as apotheosis or autotheism, I understand it as something similar to, but different in many ways regarding those two definitions.

The local mind would be those aspects of the mind dependent on (or interdependent with) physical things (i.e. brain states or the body in general) whereas the nonlocal mind would exist independent from that?

I haven't seen reason to assume the existence of a nonlocal mind of that definition, except for the fact that subjective awareness seems like something ontologically distinct from the world of matter. Yet that would be merely awareness in and of itself - all the content of awareness seems to be caused by the interaction between awareness-per-se and matter. Sentience doesn't exist in either sphere alone, just in the combination of both. At least that's what makes most sense to me based on introspection.

[Etu Malku]

From my experience, one is either on the Right or the Left Hand Path, it is illogical to be on both at once.

I haven't seen reason to assume the existence of a nonlocal mind of that definition, except for the fact that subjective awareness seems like something ontologically distinct from the world of matter. Yet that would be merely awareness in and of itself - all the content of awareness seems to be caused by the interaction between awareness-per-se and matter. Sentience doesn't exist in either sphere alone, just in the combination of both. At least that's what makes most sense to me based on introspection.

Proto-man was just one of many animal species fighting for survival over the millennia. If his brain could evolve through processes of natural selection, then why did the brains of other creatures not similarly evolve - at least a little? The fact is that the brains of other creatures have remained practically the same size while man’s has “evolved”. By the law of averages - which applies to natural selection as much as to anything else - there should have been at least some species other than man evolving in intelligence at least partway to the human level. There is none.

So what has taken place?

We are left with the explanation: Deliberate Cause
And this implies an Isolate Intelligence working through our physical being (brain/body)

Human intelligence is a violation of Objective Universal Law. That evidence for the existence of an intelligent entity distinct from the objective universe has instilled in humanity the potential to enjoy the same external perspective, as well as the intelligence to do so with a deliberate, creative purpose.

This Higher Self / GodSelf does not behave as though it were merely a “sum total” of the brain’s sensory and manipulative capacities, combining and recombining inputted information as though it were an “organic” electronic computer. It has a sense of identity, a sense of uniqueness, a sense of distance, and differentiation from everything else that exists.

[Liu]

Proto-man was just one of many animal species fighting for survival over the millennia. If his brain could evolve through processes of natural selection, then why did the brains of other creatures not similarly evolve - at least a little? The fact is that the brains of other creatures have remained practically the same size while man’s has “evolved”. By the law of averages - which applies to natural selection as much as to anything else - there should have been at least some species other than man evolving in intelligence at least partway to the human level. There is none.

So what has taken place?

We are left with the explanation: Deliberate Cause
And this implies an Isolate Intelligence working through our physical being (brain/body)

Human intelligence is a violation of Objective Universal Law. That evidence for the existence of an intelligent entity distinct from the objective universe has instilled in humanity the potential to enjoy the same external perspective, as well as the intelligence to do so with a deliberate, creative purpose.

There's enough other species who have evolved to a certain degree of self-awareness - if that degree is possible with just the objective universe, why need another ingredient for humans?

The distance to other species could be simply explained by e.g. ratchet effects - once a certain change has occurred, there's no easy going back and other changes build on it.

Also, even if we were the only species with any form of intelligence - there are also explanations for that. E.g. it could simply be extremely unlikely for a species to be in the right circumstances for evolutionary pressure to push into this direction.

This Higher Self / GodSelf does not behave as though it were merely a “sum total” of the brain’s sensory and manipulative capacities, combining and recombining inputted information as though it were an “organic” electronic computer. It has a sense of identity, a sense of uniqueness, a sense of distance, and differentiation from everything else that exists.

Why would those things not be caused by the brain?

Even if your beliefs would turn out to be right: As I said on previous occasions, I don't think it's a good idea to make the definition of the LHP dependent on specific metaphysical beliefs that we have no way of proving. Otherwise you make the LHP dependent on believing in a dogma, which doesn't seem very LHPy to me at all.

I don't mind you having these beliefs or even if you make them a requirement for joining a spiritual group of yours. But I don't see why believing them would be a necessity for being on the LHP (or rather, for being a satanist, as was what Suthek and me were discussing).

[Etu Malku]

Proto-man was just one of many animal species fighting for survival over the millennia. If his brain could evolve through processes of natural selection, then why did the brains of other creatures not similarly evolve - at least a little? The fact is that the brains of other creatures have remained practically the same size while man’s has “evolved”. By the law of averages - which applies to natural selection as much as to anything else - there should have been at least some species other than man evolving in intelligence at least partway to the human level. There is none.

So what has taken place?

We are left with the explanation: Deliberate Cause
And this implies an Isolate Intelligence working through our physical being (brain/body)

Human intelligence is a violation of Objective Universal Law. That evidence for the existence of an intelligent entity distinct from the objective universe has instilled in humanity the potential to enjoy the same external perspective, as well as the intelligence to do so with a deliberate, creative purpose.

There's enough other species who have evolved to a certain degree of self-awareness - if that degree is possible with just the objective universe, why need another ingredient for humans?

The distance to other species could be simply explained by e.g. ratchet effects - once a certain change has occurred, there's no easy going back and other changes build on it.

Also, even if we were the only species with any form of intelligence - there are also explanations for that. E.g. it could simply be extremely unlikely for a species to be in the right circumstances for evolutionary pressure to push into this direction.

This Higher Self / GodSelf does not behave as though it were merely a “sum total” of the brain’s sensory and manipulative capacities, combining and recombining inputted information as though it were an “organic” electronic computer. It has a sense of identity, a sense of uniqueness, a sense of distance, and differentiation from everything else that exists.

Why would those things not be caused by the brain?

Even if your beliefs would turn out to be right: As I said on previous occasions, I don't think it's a good idea to make the definition of the LHP dependent on specific metaphysical beliefs that we have no way of proving. Otherwise you make the LHP dependent on believing in a dogma, which doesn't seem very LHPy to me at all.

I don't mind you having these beliefs or even if you make them a requirement for joining a spiritual group of yours. But I don't see why believing them would be a necessity for being on the LHP (or rather, for being a satanist, as was what Suthek and me were discussing).

We're not talking about animals being 'somewhat' self-aware though, are we? Conscious Awareness is something quite different I would think. I suppose it possible that the brain is deluding us into a sense of 'otherness', it can and often does produce a sense of agency, yet that is again something quite different.

Unfortunately, the definition of the (western) left hand path has suffered from controversy, everyone making it what they hope it to be, and utter confusion. I don't see where I introduced dogma into the play, my intention was to address it from a philosophical and neurotheological stance.

Your indirect snub was not called for however, there are no requirements to believe what I believe in order to work within the Herald of the Dawn. I was simply offering further thought to your inquiry . . . by all means, continue your discussion with Suthek about being a satanist.

[Liu]

Huh? I didn't mean that as an offense against you or your order. I'm actually surprised that it wouldn't be a (not official but de facto) requirement to have beliefs similar to that as it seems such a fundamental part of your order-related writings, but as I said, even if it were the case I wouldn't really mind. Sorry I got the wrong impression, though, except for your postings on this forum I don't really know much about your order so I should have looked into it more before assuming that to be the case.

Well regarding humans differing ontologically from other animals I guess we best agree to disagree. I don't consider it impossible, I just don't think we have clear enough evidence to base our metaphysics on that alone.

The LHP is a social construct, so there is no true definition of it, only what people make of it. What seems dogmatic to me is that you say that these other forms of approaching the LHP are invalid and that you base that on metaphysical beliefs - fairly reasonable ones, admittedly, even if I don't find them convincing, but still beliefs that can't be proven.

[Sutekh]

How would you distinguish between someone who is on the path from someone who isn't?

1) Critical and Independent Thinking

2) Being non collective/non conformist

3) One who does not seek any union/dissolving the self or (ego) to god or to the Universe, but instead cherishes that ego and remains separate from the laws of the Objective Universe.

4) Xepering/Remanifesting/Creating action or power and manifesting it as a will/Bettering yourself/Becoming as the Übermensch (or godhood)

That is my definition of the Left Hand Path


Someone who is not on the Left Hand Path- 1) One, who is and thinks as the herd thinks 2) One who does not have any ambition or drive to become that Übermensch  3) One who does not have the Critical/Independent thinking, but instead chooses to be a follower who is docile. 4) One who chooses the easiest way out of life, instead of looking at the grim site of what life truly is. 5) One who chooses to seek a Union with god by dissolving the self and the ego (meaning by conventional religious means).

(By the way my saying of the Übermensch is taken from Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra)

These are my basic definitions, I am sure the rest you can figure out on your own.

[Liu]

Thanks!

How would you distinguish between someone who is on the path from someone who isn't?

1) Critical and Independent Thinking

2) Being non collective/non conformist

3) One who does not seek any union/dissolving the self or (ego) to god or to the Universe, but instead cherishes that ego and remains separate from the laws of the Objective Universe.

4) Xepering/Remanifesting/Creating action or power and manifesting it as a will/Bettering yourself/Becoming as the Übermensch (or godhood)

That is my definition of the Left Hand Path

Pretty sure that's common also among non-occultists.

Most people I usually have to do much with in real life are 1) academics, who are 3) atheists and 4) lifelong learners - whether they are also 2) non-conformist is a bit harder to tell, but considering that they chose a profession that is based on their personal interests and where the point is progress would point to that.
And I would assume that hardly any of them has ever even heard of the LHP.

So all in all that doesn't seem too unusual to me. It's all a matter of degree, though, how high you put the bar in regards to fulfilling these criteria.

Myself, I would argue to fulfill criteria 1), 2) and 4), or at least aiming to, and 3) resolves to not applicable when I try to apply it to my metaphysics. (one is already a part of "god" anyway).

Someone who is not on the Left Hand Path- 1) One, who is and thinks as the herd thinks

What does the herd think, though? Which people are the herd? Pretty much anyone I know fulfills at least half of the criteria based on my estimation.

5) One who chooses to seek a Union with god by dissolving the self and the ego (meaning by conventional religious means).

I don't know many Christians but none of them seemed to have that as their religious goal.

[Etu Malku]

This is the fundamental flaw with the (western) left hand path people, the lack of a definitive outline as to what IS the (western) left hand path. The 'label' has become whatever you 'need' it to be and doesn't stand on its own, which is antithetical to the actual (western) LHP philosophy.

This is the definition of the Western Left Hand Path as the Herald of the Dawn defines it and to me represents the Path in its clearest, truest, and nonlinear form.

The Western Left Hand Path is the conscious effort to realize and embrace one's Greater Self and to bring this Self into one's mundane self as often as possible thus coming to know one's true Self while incarnate.

[Liu]

This is the fundamental flaw with the (western) left hand path people, the lack of a definitive outline as to what IS the (western) left hand path. The 'label' has become whatever you 'need' it to be and doesn't stand on its own, which is antithetical to the actual (western) LHP philosophy.

To me, that's not a flaw but entirely in line with (western) LHP philosophy - it's about finding an approach to spiritual development that works for oneself as an individual, so clearly many people will have different forms of it based on their needs.

This is the definition of the Western Left Hand Path as the Herald of the Dawn defines it and to me represents the Path in its clearest, truest, and nonlinear form.

The Western Left Hand Path is the conscious effort to realize and embrace one's Greater Self and to bring this Self into one's mundane self as often as possible thus coming to know one's true Self while incarnate.

Hm, if we for a moment ignore our metaphysical differences, I could rephrase that as:
"The Western Left Hand Path is the conscious effort to realize and embrace Oneself and to bring this Self into one's mundane self as often as possible thus coming to know one's true Self while incarnate."
I.e., no matter whether that Greater Self is something distinct from an objective universe that one's mundane self would be part of, or whether it's simply the core of one's personality, that shouldn't affect the techniques or even the goal in practical terms as it's still about the same kind of self-actualization, isn't it?

[Etu Malku]

This is the fundamental flaw with the (western) left hand path people, the lack of a definitive outline as to what IS the (western) left hand path. The 'label' has become whatever you 'need' it to be and doesn't stand on its own, which is antithetical to the actual (western) LHP philosophy.

To me, that's not a flaw but entirely in line with (western) LHP philosophy - it's about finding an approach to spiritual development that works for oneself as an individual, so clearly many people will have different forms of it based on their needs.

This is the definition of the Western Left Hand Path as the Herald of the Dawn defines it and to me represents the Path in its clearest, truest, and nonlinear form.

The Western Left Hand Path is the conscious effort to realize and embrace one's Greater Self and to bring this Self into one's mundane self as often as possible thus coming to know one's true Self while incarnate.

Hm, if we for a moment ignore our metaphysical differences, I could rephrase that as:
"The Western Left Hand Path is the conscious effort to realize and embrace Oneself and to bring this Self into one's mundane self as often as possible thus coming to know one's true Self while incarnate."
I.e., no matter whether that Greater Self is something distinct from an objective universe that one's mundane self would be part of, or whether it's simply the core of one's personality, that shouldn't affect the techniques or even the goal in practical terms as it's still about the same kind of self-actualization, isn't it?

As long as you are embracing the True you, the 'more than human' you, I suppose it works. There is no religiosity attached where one needs to believe in anything external to one's being.

[Liu]

As long as you are embracing the True you, the 'more than human' you, I suppose it works. There is no religiosity attached where one needs to believe in anything external to one's being.

"more than human" is again such a vague term. If something is possible for a human, why would it be more than human.

But otherwise I think we do mean similar things if not even the same thing in practice.

Btw, regarding practices - I took a look at some of the articles on the blog of the Herald of the Dawn, especially those that sounded like they might elaborate on techniques used within the order, but it seemed all very vague and more focused on mythology and some speculations on psychology. So it's difficult to derive from that what spiritual work within your order looks like. So that makes it difficult to get a proper impression of what it is about.
I would guess that it's at least in part intentional that you only want to share your practices within your order?

[Etu Malku]

As long as you are embracing the True you, the 'more than human' you, I suppose it works. There is no religiosity attached where one needs to believe in anything external to one's being.

"more than human" is again such a vague term. If something is possible for a human, why would it be more than human.

But otherwise I think we do mean similar things if not even the same thing in practice.

Btw, regarding practices - I took a look at some of the articles on the blog of the Herald of the Dawn, especially those that sounded like they might elaborate on techniques used within the order, but it seemed all very vague and more focused on mythology and some speculations on psychology. So it's difficult to derive from that what spiritual work within your order looks like. So that makes it difficult to get a proper impression of what it is about.
I would guess that it's at least in part intentional that you only want to share your practices within your order?

The actual work and philosophy is contained within the Order, outside of a few articles and things floating around, H☿D is primarily an Occult Order in its truest meaning.

The phrase 'more than human' isn't that difficult to understand. One becomes More Than Human when the human aspect of our existence is transcended. In other words, as we become more like our Greater Self, we become less like our mundane self, thus more than human.

[Liu]

The actual work and philosophy is contained within the Order, outside of a few articles and things floating around, H☿D is primarily an Occult Order in its truest meaning.

Fair enough - if you're not interested in people outside your order getting a proper idea of it, or if you see more value in keeping stuff secret, then that's fine.

The phrase 'more than human' isn't that difficult to understand. One becomes More Than Human when the human aspect of our existence is transcended. In other words, as we become more like our Greater Self, we become less like our mundane self, thus more than human.

Every human got a Greater Self, I suppose? So that's part of being human. Why would coming closer to one's true self mean becoming less of a human if that true self is an inherent part of being a human in the first place?

[Etu Malku]

The actual work and philosophy is contained within the Order, outside of a few articles and things floating around, H☿D is primarily an Occult Order in its truest meaning.

Fair enough - if you're not interested in people outside your order getting a proper idea of it, or if you see more value in keeping stuff secret, then that's fine.

The phrase 'more than human' isn't that difficult to understand. One becomes More Than Human when the human aspect of our existence is transcended. In other words, as we become more like our Greater Self, we become less like our mundane self, thus more than human.

Every human got a Greater Self, I suppose? So that's part of being human. Why would coming closer to one's true self mean becoming less of a human if that true self is an inherent part of being a human in the first place?

Well, first the phrase is 'More Than Human' not less than human. Think about the meaning when people say "I'm only human", it refers to our reptilian brain and our sub-human aspects. Even though there is a Greater Self attached to all of us, very few of us aspire to find it and fewer to embrace it. For me, that is the essence of the Western Left Hand Path and nothing more or less.