Author Topic: Niners and feminism  (Read 245 times)

Niners and feminism
« on: August 11, 2020, 10:46:20 pm »
I'm curious how related the ONA is to feminism. They criticize "Magians" for being patriarchal, but I think anyone with even basic knowledge of Abrahamic religion already knows this is false (chivalry, virgin worship, Andreas Capellanus, circumcision, Jewish matrilineal descent, Petrarch, Eleanor of Aquitaine... a simple list of examples of Abrahamic gynocentrism would fill up a book).

The ONA then claim their doctrine overthrows their patriarchal Christian strawman and returns to some sort of authentic feminine religion. I've noticed they do not seem to support gender equality, for example; with a female bias.

So, do niners support feminism? Isn't there a contradiction inherent in supporting nazism (which unlike Christianity truly is androcentric) and gynocentrism at the same time? Which is more important to them?

Would a niner join an anti-feminist group as part of their quest for spiritual growth through taboo action? Which of these two priorities (taboo action or feminism... I think it's safe to say anti-feminism is taboo in the West today) has higher value to them?

Most importantly... Am I wrong about anything here? I'm very familiar with Eastern religion, but unfortunately very unfamiliar with Satanism.

Thanks.

Etu Malku

Re: Niners and feminism
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2020, 02:44:47 am »
I'm curious how related the ONA is to feminism. They criticize "Magians" for being patriarchal, but I think anyone with even basic knowledge of Abrahamic religion already knows this is false (chivalry, virgin worship, Andreas Capellanus, circumcision, Jewish matrilineal descent, Petrarch, Eleanor of Aquitaine... a simple list of examples of Abrahamic gynocentrism would fill up a book).

The ONA then claim their doctrine overthrows their patriarchal Christian strawman and returns to some sort of authentic feminine religion. I've noticed they do not seem to support gender equality, for example; with a female bias.

So, do niners support feminism? Isn't there a contradiction inherent in supporting nazism (which unlike Christianity truly is androcentric) and gynocentrism at the same time? Which is more important to them?

Would a niner join an anti-feminist group as part of their quest for spiritual growth through taboo action? Which of these two priorities (taboo action or feminism... I think it's safe to say anti-feminism is taboo in the West today) has higher value to them?

Most importantly... Am I wrong about anything here? I'm very familiar with Eastern religion, but unfortunately very unfamiliar with Satanism.

Thanks.
Magian is related to Persians, I never understood how they related it to Abrahamism. In any case, it is true that the Abrahamic faiths downplay if not obliterate the sacred feminine energy. It is apparent in almost everything they do. Father Mother Son becomes Father Son Holy Ghost, Yahweh is the first deity to not have a consort, women are regulated to submissive, subservient, breeders. Some of the ONA embrace older, pagan religions based on reverence of the sacred feminine energy.
IAMTHATIAMNOT

Re: Niners and feminism
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2020, 04:39:04 am »
Downplay or obliterate the sacred feminine? Really?

Is that why Catholic sinners pray "Hail Mary, full of grace..."? Is that why there are more Virgin Mary's than pokemon? Yes, it is called "the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost", but this has no relation whatsoever to the holy family of Mother, Son, and God (because fuck Joseph). Christian iconography speaks volumes on what they consider most important; how many times have you seen the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in paintings or icons? And how many times have you seen just the Mother and Son (no father)? Why do you think Christians campaigned against the Equal Rights Ammendment? I got news for you; their slogan was "Stop Taking Our Privileges", and it wasn't the men saying that.

And you didn't even address the multiple other examples I gave of gynocentrism in Abrahamism, almost all of which apply to Christianity. I don't feel like explaining courtly love or chivalry but you should look into them more; such things did not exist before Christianity.

There is one thing you mentioned which is objectively true however, that in Christian Europe, "women are regulated to submissive, subservient, breeders". However, this is true only because European women already had that role in pagan Europe. This was ironically the real cause of the downfall of paganism... Christianity spread from the uneducated slaves to the uneducated women, from the uneducated women to the children, and those children became Rome's Christian generation. That monster Augustine mentions many times the role his mother played in infecting him with Christianity; if she had a better education and position in life that would never have happened, since no educated pagan would have done such a thing to their child. Rather than being oppressed by Christianity, women instead saw their gender roles change under it. From being weaker, dumber pagan men, women now became virtuous, pure, holy, weaker, dumber Christian men. Notice I didn't say their gender roles improved; they were only altered. (However, that didn't stop women 1500 years later from fighting fiercely to maintain the Christian status quo and keep their privileges.)

Historical facts aside (I'm not interested in debating something you can find in a history book) I think we both certainly agree that the ONA does embrace (their idea of) "older, pagan religions based on reverence of the sacred feminine energy." What I'm curious about is how important this doctrine is to them.

Are they like the Mormon church, ready to take to the streets and protest endlessly against gender equality if such a terrible thing were to be considered by politicians? Is it just an attempt at edginess and smug moral superiority over a strawman? A way to attract fourth-wave feminists? Or something else?

« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 04:50:39 am by satanism-throwaway »

Liu

Re: Niners and feminism
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2020, 02:32:03 pm »
Which paganism are you referring to? There were a lot of different pagan cultures in Europe, with different gender roles. In Rome for example, women held a much better position than in Athens.

And matrilineal doesn't mean gender equality or matriarchy. Just look at this: https://d-place.org/combinations/SCCS696_SCCS621#1/24/147
In almost all matrilineal societies in the data set, wives are supposed to submit to their husbands. And if you look into the old testament, you won't get the impression that the society in which it developed held women in high regard.

Downplay or obliterate the sacred feminine? Really?

Is that why Catholic sinners pray "Hail Mary, full of grace..."? Is that why there are more Virgin Mary's than pokemon? Yes, it is called "the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost", but this has no relation whatsoever to the holy family of Mother, Son, and God (because fuck Joseph).
I don't think that was about the holy family, but rather about the mythologies of other cultures which often include both father and mother deities.

You do have a point regarding courtship and virgin worship in literature and art, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything for how things were in most of actual society.

Most importantly... Am I wrong about anything here? I'm very familiar with Eastern religion, but unfortunately very unfamiliar with Satanism.

Thanks.
Well most Satanists wouldn't consider the ONA to be a form of Satanism. Not even many Niners themselves consider themselves Satanists from what I heard.

Re: Niners and feminism
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2020, 03:03:17 pm »
Which paganism are you referring to? There were a lot of different pagan cultures in Europe, with different gender roles. In Rome for example, women held a much better position than in Athens.

I'm mainly referring to the Greco-Roman pantheon, and if you're also familiar with Greco-Roman religion and culture then I'm sure we agree. You should read Lysistrata if you haven't already.

You're right also that matrilineal doesn't mean matriarchy, and that's not what I was trying to imply. Matrilineal descent is nothing more than evidence that Jewish women had a specific (spiritual) role above and beyond just human cattle.

I don't think that was about the holy family, but rather about the mythologies of other cultures which often include both father and mother deities.

I was responding to Etu Malku's statement "Father Mother Son becomes Father Son Holy Ghost". I feel like that whole thing was a red herring though anyway. Really, this whole discussion of whether or not Christianity is gynocentric is a red herring, because I was asking about the ONA.

Well most Satanists wouldn't consider the ONA to be a form of Satanism. Not even many Niners themselves consider themselves Satanists from what I heard.

Yeah from what I've read in their texts the closest word would be "baphometism" haha...

I'd be curious to hear your feedback on my elaborated questions (which might help bring this back on-topic):

Are they like the Mormon church, ready to take to the streets and protest endlessly against gender equality if such a terrible thing were to be considered by politicians? Is it just an attempt at edginess and smug moral superiority over a strawman? A way to attract fourth-wave feminists? Or something else?

I'm sure democratic protesting isn't really their thing, but hopefully my point won't be misinterpreted.


Liu

Re: Niners and feminism
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2020, 06:21:29 pm »
It seemed less like a red herring to me and more
- a concern about certain claims you were making irregardless of whether they were what you were asking about or not
- and a simple lack of the knowledge necessary to answer those more "on-topic" questions

...which I can't help you with either. I read some ONA material quite a few years ago, but you likely know more about it than me, which is why I focused on the parts of your post that I could give any input to.

We don't have any Niners among the active users here as far as I know. As I said, it's not really Satanism, and actually not even LHP based at least on some definitions, and rarely discussed here.

I'm mainly referring to the Greco-Roman pantheon, and if you're also familiar with Greco-Roman religion and culture then I'm sure we agree. You should read Lysistrata if you haven't already.

You're right also that matrilineal doesn't mean matriarchy, and that's not what I was trying to imply. Matrilineal descent is nothing more than evidence that Jewish women had a specific (spiritual) role above and beyond just human cattle.

I see, but if you are only referring to their spiritual significance independent on their societal role, then I don't understand why you used it as an argument for why Abrahamic religion wouldn't be patriarchal.
And thanks for the recommendation, I haven't really read anything by Aristophanes yet.

Re: Niners and feminism
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2020, 07:49:19 pm »
You're welcome, that play was really enlightening for me because it focuses exclusively on Greco-Roman gender relations. And trust me, regardless of technical legal distinctions, the Roman opinion of women was not any better than Aristophanes'. I think you will be surprised by what he says.

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...then I don't understand why you used it as an argument for why Abrahamic religion wouldn't be patriarchal.

I think there has been some vagueness of the language used which has led to this confusion, because I never claimed that.

  • I said the ONA criticizes Magian religion for being "patriarchal" (that is the word they use), but I said the Magians were instead gynocentric. Patriarchal/matriarchal meaning "government by men/women," and gynocentric/androcentric meaning "reverence for women/men" or "supremacy of women/men" (more literally, "centered on women/men"). There is a subtle but important distinction. Although Abrahamic religion tends to be gynocentric, I have never seen a matriarchal Abrahamic state or religious sect. This is also why I carefully chose the word "androcentric" when referring to Nazism, although Nazism and Fascism were also patriarchal.
  • Etu Malku claimed they "obliterate the sacred feminine," implying he claims they are androcentric (since matriarchal/patriarchal would again, only refer to government).
  • The first time matriarchy was brought up was in one of your responses. Since you said "gender equality or matriarchy" and those two concepts are unrelated-- one being a state of social equity, another being a form of government-- I thought it would make more sense if you meant "gender equality or gynocentrism", but I didn't think it charitable to correct what I assumed to be a typo.

It was Christian men, controlling a patriarchal society, who first made Christian women their "sacred cows" (much like Anton Long is apparently doing today in the ONA). This is not a contradiction.

Let me just add that the origins of the Christian sacred feminine might indeed be found in the religions of the Germanic barbarians... religions which I have not studied because their followers never accomplished anything of interest (it wasn't until after their conversion to Christianity that they managed to sack Rome, for example). Thus, if someone really wanted to make the case that gynocentrism is pagan, then yes it would be possible to distort the facts enough to make that claim by cherry-picking one of the thousands of ancient pagan religions that fits their argument. Venus figures were a thing too, after all... whoever produced those certainly at least had some gynocentrism in their culture. But then the ONA isn't "returning" to feminine paganism. They are merely creating a new religion, based partly on fixing the lack of sufficient gynocentrism in Christianity, and partly on some very specific brands of paganism that happen to agree with them when taken out of context.

Anyway, one last thing... yes I understand the reasoning that ONA does not really qualify as Satanism. But then again neither does the CoS or TST (in my opinion, considering they are just atheists with robes) yet they are often talked about in the same breath as any other Satanic group. At the same time, it's unfortunately much more difficult to talk to anyone about the ONA's beliefs than any other Satanist or pseudo-Satanist group, hence why I came here.

However, since theirs seems to be a common opinion among Satanists (the ONA are not the first to imply Abrahamism is too androcentric) I would also like to hear from anyone else who believes this, what reasoning they have for their beliefs, how important/sacred those beliefs are, and if they desire gender equality or gynocentrism.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 07:58:08 pm by satanism-throwaway »

Liu

Re: Niners and feminism
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2020, 07:25:43 am »
I see, yes, I might have not read that closely enough, I don't think I've encountered the term gyno/androcentric before, at least not in a context in which it was important.

Yet, if Abrahamic religions are gynocentric then that is not an argument against them being patriarchal.

That's what lead me to assume that gynocentric and matriarchal must be so closely related in how you use them as to be interchangeable.

But if you didn't mean that as an argument against them being patriarchal but as a refinement of the claim (i.e. them being patriarchal but gynocentric), then I understand what you mean. Thanks for clarifying.

Well if you define gynocentric as, having a central role in religious symbolism, then at least in Catholic Christianity one could certainly make a point for it. Also perhaps for "reverence for women", or at least for reverence for an abstract ideal, imo not really for "dominance of women" however.

Anyway, one last thing... yes I understand the reasoning that ONA does not really qualify as Satanism. But then again neither does the CoS or TST (in my opinion, considering they are just atheists with robes) yet they are often talked about in the same breath as any other Satanic group. At the same time, it's unfortunately much more difficult to talk to anyone about the ONA's beliefs than any other Satanist or pseudo-Satanist group, hence why I came here.

Well what else am I? :mrgreen:
I'm an agnostic myself (although leaning to some form of pantheism) and there is little in what TST represents that I would really object to.

I don't know whether that makes me more or less of a Satanist than any Niner would be. That's a matter of definition. I merely brought up that criterion to point out why it's unlikely to find an answer here to your inquiry. But yes, it's still one of the more likely places for finding an answer nevertheless.

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However, since theirs seems to be a common opinion among Satanists (the ONA are not the first to imply Abrahamism is too androcentric) I would also like to hear from anyone else who believes this, what reasoning they have for their beliefs, how important/sacred those beliefs are,
I don't care enough about Abrahamic religions to be much involved in about whether they are andro- or gynocentric. Most of the people I encounter in daily life are atheists, so what Christians believe is usually only relevant to me when it comes to politics or history.

The Protestant Christianity I came to know in school would have been more andro- than gynocentric based on the gender of most of the mythological figures central to it. Yet they didn't teach that God would be male or that Jesus would necessarily be God's son or even that one would need to believe in God to be Christian, so that might differ from the forms of Christianity that you are more familiar with.
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and if they desire gender equality or gynocentrism.
I would favor gender equality as it supports personal freedom.

Re: Niners and feminism
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2020, 07:43:43 am »
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Well what else am I? :mrgreen:

Haha! I'm glad to see you took that in good humor. Too many people today have no sense of it.

Quote
The Protestant Christianity I came to know in school

Ah yes, I keep forgetting about the personal experience component. Perhaps that's all there is to it. Did Anton Long see his female relatives victimized by Christians? Did his pastor or parents push an extremely androcentric form of Christianity? Or perhaps it is the opposite... Did they instead push an extremely gynocentric Christianity, which stuck with him as "correct" even after he left the Christians?

Either scenario would explain everything.

Quote
I would favor gender equality as it supports personal freedom.

Cool. Personally I agree though I know far too many who would not.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 07:48:54 am by satanism-throwaway »

Etu Malku

Re: Niners and feminism
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2020, 10:21:43 pm »
Downplay or obliterate the sacred feminine? Really?

Is that why Catholic sinners pray "Hail Mary, full of grace..."? Is that why there are more Virgin Mary's than pokemon? Yes, it is called "the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost", but this has no relation whatsoever to the holy family of Mother, Son, and God (because fuck Joseph). Christian iconography speaks volumes on what they consider most important; how many times have you seen the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in paintings or icons? And how many times have you seen just the Mother and Son (no father)? Why do you think Christians campaigned against the Equal Rights Ammendment? I got news for you; their slogan was "Stop Taking Our Privileges", and it wasn't the men saying that.

And you didn't even address the multiple other examples I gave of gynocentrism in Abrahamism, almost all of which apply to Christianity. I don't feel like explaining courtly love or chivalry but you should look into them more; such things did not exist before Christianity.

There is one thing you mentioned which is objectively true however, that in Christian Europe, "women are regulated to submissive, subservient, breeders". However, this is true only because European women already had that role in pagan Europe. This was ironically the real cause of the downfall of paganism... Christianity spread from the uneducated slaves to the uneducated women, from the uneducated women to the children, and those children became Rome's Christian generation. That monster Augustine mentions many times the role his mother played in infecting him with Christianity; if she had a better education and position in life that would never have happened, since no educated pagan would have done such a thing to their child. Rather than being oppressed by Christianity, women instead saw their gender roles change under it. From being weaker, dumber pagan men, women now became virtuous, pure, holy, weaker, dumber Christian men. Notice I didn't say their gender roles improved; they were only altered. (However, that didn't stop women 1500 years later from fighting fiercely to maintain the Christian status quo and keep their privileges.)

Historical facts aside (I'm not interested in debating something you can find in a history book) I think we both certainly agree that the ONA does embrace (their idea of) "older, pagan religions based on reverence of the sacred feminine energy." What I'm curious about is how important this doctrine is to them.

Are they like the Mormon church, ready to take to the streets and protest endlessly against gender equality if such a terrible thing were to be considered by politicians? Is it just an attempt at edginess and smug moral superiority over a strawman? A way to attract fourth-wave feminists? Or something else?
This is Catholicism you're babbling about, which is 'a' faction of Christian faith, and one which slops together whatever the fuck they want to in order to attract as many sheeple and turn off a few as possible.

I'll tell you what, I'll put you in touch with a nexus and you can explain your veiws to them, see how they reply.
IAMTHATIAMNOT

Re: Niners and feminism
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2020, 01:23:17 am »
Quote
This is Catholicism you're babbling about, which is 'a' faction of Christian faith, and one which slops together whatever the fuck they want to in order to attract as many sheeple and turn off a few as possible.

Um... I was talking about Catholic and Orthodox Christianity only because Catholic/Orthodox iconography is the most obvious counterexample to your "Father Mother Son becomes Father Son Holy Ghost" pseudo-argument.

I then brought up Mormons because they were the one Christian denomination whose wealth and ridiculous levels of gynocentrism gave them the power and religious zeal necessary to singlehandedly kill the Equal Rights Ammendment. Without their public manipulation it would probably have passed.

Are all three of those groups Catholics according to you?

Anyway. Since Liu, meanwhile, managed to answer the original question with reasoning and coherent sentences... we've now moved on from that topic. Actually I honestly moved on from this whole post as well since I now consider my original question answered with some insight I gained from Liu's last response. Anyone who knows the history knows it's just another irrational belief, and so like most irrational beliefs it probably had something to do with his childhood. Whatever.