Author Topic: explaining your system to new people  (Read 638 times)

Kapalika

explaining your system to new people
« on: July 26, 2020, 11:11:40 am »
This actually came about as a joke I posted on facebook, after drawing something.

Jokes aside, I always felt it is easier for someone who can identify with a well known system adopted by many to kind of, for those with contextual knowledge, to get a ballpark of where you are coming from at least. If you are in a conversation that gets on the topic of occultism, magic or spirituality however where they don't have that context, or your system is individually crafted in some significant way, how do you go about those kinds of first conversations?

I personally try to start with basics, or cover where mine fall on the specific subject that came up (afterlife, morals, god, ect). I do make a habit (or did before covid19) to talk with people out and about or at magic shops or other places about spirituality whenever someone brought up the topic, so this might not apply to the more introverted of us, but I'm still curious in those times how you go about it.

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Any new spiritual person I meet: Oh cool what kind of Satanist are you?

Me:

[full size displays better here: https://kapalika.com/wp-content/uploads/S-satan1-scaled.jpg ]
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 11:14:05 am by Kapalika »
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

crossfire

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2020, 01:00:27 am »
I just say I'm a Buddhist.
"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."
~Carl Jung

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2020, 04:11:30 am »
I don’t engage the topic. I find explanation burdensome.

I generally nod, smile and turn the conversation back to the other person. What’s interesting about this is that people seem to have strong desires to talk mostly about themselves and aren’t very curious about others. Once you take this position of reflection, people will tell you anything and everything and will tell everyone else how kind of a person you are. It’s the shadow version of How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Anyway, I share almost nothing. The discipline is Silence.


Liu

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2020, 11:45:57 am »
I also don't usually talk about it much.

In real life I say I'm agnostic (but might mention that I'm interested in esoteric stuff if I know the other person is, which is rare) and perhaps that I'm a pantheist.
On websites on spirituality I might go a bit more into detail, but usually I end up explaining merely what Satanism or the LHP is in general .

idgo

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2020, 07:07:37 pm »
Those who learn about my system do so organically, by observing the ways that I think differently from how others do. I have never yet met a situation in which attempting to teach the system which works for me in a top-down manner looked like a good idea.

If someone turns to me for advice and I choose to fulfill that request, 90% or more of the task is listening. Then I might recommend a task or a piece of reading to provide the person appropriate context for whatever piece of advice I have for them, and in the unlikely event that they come back to me after completing it, their question is transformed into something which I can answer.

If someone asks about my system simply to make conversation or because they expect it ought to amuse them, I look for the underlying need and address it with more satisfying stories instead. My beliefs are a toy, yes, but they are my toy, and not for playing with in the ways that others might wish to use them.

Even if I wanted to share every detail of my system, it would likely be impossible to do so, as a listener would require exactly my own life experiences (and no others) to derive the same meaning from my observations that I do. Since it's impossible to share the system perfectly, the question is instead about what level of imprecision is tolerable, and I happen to find that rather low precision generally meets my needs.

BlackRose

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2020, 08:20:29 pm »
This is a tough one, for the most part I keep quiet and don't have any desire to explain myself or beliefs to anyone. I've had so many people in my life shove their beliefs and propaganda down my throat and I decided to never be that kind of person.

However, I will engage in conversation with someone who is genuinely interested. Usually I'll keep quiet unless they bring up the topic of magick or something similar and I'll ease into the conversation. I've only told one person ever my actual beliefs and it was because I trusted her above anyone else (ex girlfriend) and it was so liberating to tell someone else in person. Discussing these things on the internet is one thing but to to do so in person is another. She was interested in learning more about magick to improve her own life and I felt it was time to let her know the things I knew to help her out. This was a couple years ago now but in doing so, it empowered myself and my own beliefs. I definitely recommend reaching out to someone who's close to you and explaining your system but only if you trust them 100% and to be sure you're ready. When I was younger I would tell random friends about my beliefs and it usually ended up in friendships being strained or lost, but then again I learned who my real friends were. Again, this is a really tough thing to do in my experience.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." ~Ernest Henley

Jastiv

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2020, 03:19:08 pm »
A key thing is to meet people where they are at, and this goes for explaining any kind of complex thing that you know and other people do not.  You don't say, okay, kindergartner, now solve these multi-variable calculus problems after my ten minute lecture.  They are just going to be completely confused because it is all over their head.  Its going to be especially hard if in other groups of people you go over these complex topics day after day, either on a job or with like-minded friends.

Crowley was terrible at this and one of the reasons I think he sucked as a magician.  It was only later in his life he had some realization at how bad at the topic he actually was.  The poor newbies subjected to the intricacies of advanced magick, either they will think you are crazy, or just instantly be lost and feel they could never achieve those feats. 

I will give another example.  For instance, say you wanted to convince someone freedom respecting software is important and all software should come with the source code and certain basic freedoms to allow you to use it how you want to use it.  Then everyone who doesn't program looks confused, bored or asks questions like
What is source code and why should I care?  You have just lost them. 

Belial has been pretty instant with me in demonstrating this too.  You need to meet the student where they are at.  You need to answer their questions in a developmentally appropriate way.  Sometimes things will be too advanced for the newbie to do or get.  You are going to have to find a nice way of telling them they are not ready for that without turning them off the whole subject or causing them to walk away. 

Don't use a premade lesson plan and then follow through with it like a robot even if your students are bored and start to run away.  This isn't some classroom lecture hall where you can force students by law to be their or dangle some carrot over their head about good (but actually non-existent) jobs after they graduate and put up with you and your boring lectures.

A good way to begin is to find out about your students background and prior knowledge on the subject.  It also helps to answer their questions as much as you possibly can and teach them things they are interested in right away.  Sure, some stuff might be way to advanced, but you should teach them as much as you reasonably can.  You can even do a demonstration of some of the more advanced stuff if you feel it is warranted.  You should also keep in mind their goals for wanting to learn whatever subject it is that you want to teach.  Don't for instance spend hours telling your student how to play songs by rote when all they really want to do is compose music.  You have to gear the lessons to the student.  I know that is hard and sometimes it seems teachers are married to their lesson plans, but especially in the internet age, that is stupid.

Lesson plans should be given away for free to anyone who wants them.  It is a teachers time and ability to reach students that is worthwhile. It is especially important to reach  students who might not know what lessons to look at or how to apply the knowledge to their current interests or problems.

Mindmaster

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2020, 02:39:01 pm »
Crowley was terrible at this and one of the reasons I think he sucked as a magician.  It was only later in his life he had some realization at how bad at the topic he actually was.  The poor newbies subjected to the intricacies of advanced magick, either they will think you are crazy, or just instantly be lost and feel they could never achieve those feats. 

QTFT, this... this a lot...

Personally, I think Crowley was excessively overrated. You can measure a teacher by his students and what students of his were really successful or teaching his system? Even the A.'.A.'. and the OTO (reinvented, not original) are basically ghosts in the annuls of history.

I also concur greatly on what you've mentioned in regard to teaching -- you must meet students where they are. You also must filter them, because invariably there is a type of student which can learn from you and ones that cannot. You'll be wasting both your time and theirs if you try to make it work.

However, the stuff I 'teach' earns pay -- pay I cannot receive while I am teaching you. This is the only reason to ever charge. However, I always felt that this can be kept reasonable and to a low level and mostly be about discounted time and materials. I never expect my students to go shuffling for books, papers, and whatever. I rather tell them it costs X and then have that all together for them so they can focus on the study. Charging for some things also makes sense in terms of avoiding the conflict of having to decide between your customers and your apprentices. That's the only reason I've ever thought to do that, but I digress it depends on WHAT you're teaching. You can always learn on your own w/o paying a dime, and I'd never even suggest that you can't -- but, you're not just paying for the instruction itself... You're paying for the teacher streamlining the experience for you and having their direct attention to your issues as you go. (And, they've probably seen a lot more of them than you working with other people... They probably already have a solution in mind to any of your difficulties.) However, there is such a gap between teachers in mystical or spiritual subjects and I think from that perspective it's very hard to keep from being taken. Most of the resentment in regard to the student for paying is not the nominal fee, but the fact that they received very little of value for it. I think you are attentive to the students and help them toward mastery you're doing your job and probably deserve compensation. The other angle is that I've used fees to keep me from working with a lot of people whom are not serious about the subject. I'm looking to train my replacements on the earth not some dabbler -- I am doing what I do to let my craft thrive. It's a completely non-ego position that drives the endeavor. The fees weed them out nicely... :D

As far as lesson plans, I really don't use those... What I use is sort of requirement-based pathing. So, at first we do this... If you have success doing X then you might be ready for this, and so on... Sometimes that branches and the lessons are really just dabbling in a couple of things to see where you're at. In essence, I might teach two people something completely in reverse at times because they're ready for something. If the student wants to try something else and it fits in line with the progression of the lessons we will go there. I respect intuition very greatly and what is right for someone else isn't necessarily what I have in mind. These types of decisions are not to be made by me especially after we've spent a great deal of time clearing out your head space. I'm not trying to subjugate you to my lesson plan, but rather move you into a position of being able to curate and develop your own. However, I am there to teach you how to hold the bat, hit the ball, run properly, and run the bases. After that basic level I am not working on making you follow the plan but assisting you in cultivating your own style that fits like a glove. I always feel that if I am doing my job right you become the best you, not a mini-me. :D





Etu Malku

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2020, 06:49:35 pm »
My strategy is to begin by discrediting their Belief System in a logical and nonassuming way. I then explain to them my philosophy and how it is the only logical and assuming way of life, granted they are interested in the Western Left Hand Path.

Etu Malku

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2020, 06:50:24 pm »
I just say I'm a Buddhist.
No longer a Mercuræn huh? Or were you ever?  :rolleyes:

Mindmaster

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2020, 09:28:19 pm »
My strategy is to begin by discrediting their Belief System in a logical and nonassuming way. I then explain to them my philosophy and how it is the only logical and assuming way of life, granted they are interested in the Western Left Hand Path.

How does that work out for you? :D



Etu Malku

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2020, 12:25:09 pm »
My strategy is to begin by discrediting their Belief System in a logical and nonassuming way. I then explain to them my philosophy and how it is the only logical and assuming way of life, granted they are interested in the Western Left Hand Path.

How does that work out for you? :D
It's worked out rather well on many occaisions, other times not so much.  ;)

Mindmaster

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2020, 03:45:06 pm »
It's worked out rather well on many occaisions, other times not so much.  ;)
[/quote]

Haha, well I appreciate your honesty. :D


I think when one teaches one must figure out why they do and adhere to that standard. I'm not interested in teaching someone a philosophy or otherwise providing reasons, but I'd wager if that was exactly what I was doing I'd have a different approach. Philosophies sort of make it or break it on the basis of their participants dedication. :D

Instead, I'm more in the business of lining people up with their philosophy rather than teaching it. It's sort of wrapped up in a convoluted mashup of NLP, healing arts, and life experience but those are just the gears to the machine not really the thing. :D

crossfire

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2020, 07:56:04 am »
I just say I'm a Buddhist.
No longer a Mercuræn huh? Or were you ever?  :rolleyes:
Can you discredit my system in a logical and unassuming way?  :mrgreen:
"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."
~Carl Jung

Etu Malku

Re: explaining your system to new people
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2020, 03:39:58 pm »
I just say I'm a Buddhist.
No longer a Mercuræn huh? Or were you ever?  :rolleyes:
Can you discredit my system in a logical and unassuming way?  :mrgreen:
Only if I knew what your system is  :\