baphomet pronounciation

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Kapalika

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baphomet pronounciation
« on: March 11, 2020, 11:36:08 am »
I had a small argument about the correct pronunciation in person, and seems the internet isn't helping me and some guides have one or the other, or even both!


Either Bapho-met


or Bapho-may


Can anyone with a greater knowledge of language or etymology provide me on some insight?
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Liu

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Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2020, 12:21:38 pm »
Just pronounce is as you like - language changes all the time anyway ;)

I've encountered both pronunciations (certainly the -may one in music lyrics, and the pun of this show's title only works with the -met version).

Well, let's collect the relevant information:

It seems to be first found in Latin texts of the 11th century, and in 12th and 13th century Occitan poems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet#History
If it's Latin, then usually every letter is pronounced, so that would be -met.
If it's Occitan, similar seems to apply: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Occitan#Phonology

When the word was used in the course of the trials against the templars, that was in the early 14th century France, so the relevant languages would be (early) Middle French, and medieval clerical Latin.
If it's Middle French - huh, seems like around 1500 there was a sound change by which final consonants were lost if the next word in a sentence started with a consonant. So that would be either -met or -meh, depending on the following word. But that's quite a bit late, so I would assume around 1300, it was still pronounced -met. No guarantees, though, just based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_French#To_Late_Old_French,_c._1250%E2%80%931300

Considering that Baphomet was made famous in modern times by Éliphas Lévi, a modern French native, we'd likely have to ask someone who speaks French (I don't) how to exactly pronounce it. But based on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_orthography it seems to be -meh.

Take your pick, you now have an additional option ;)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 01:28:53 pm by Liu »

Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2020, 09:56:44 pm »
Baphomet is a corruption of the Arabic abufihamat (pronounced “ah boo fee ah mah”), which means “father of understanding”.

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Frater Sisyphus

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Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2020, 04:32:43 am »
Most common (and only that I've heard) pronunciation is Baff-Oh-Met.

However Baff-Oh-may is a pronunciation I've thought myself because etymologically it seems more correct for medieval english.


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Liu

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Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2020, 08:13:51 am »
Baphomet is a corruption of the Arabic abufihamat (pronounced “ah boo fee ah mah”), which means “father of understanding”.
That's one of a dozen possible explanations.

Since it first was used to refer to Mohammed, I strongly assume it's just an intentional or unintentional  mispronunciation of that.

Most common (and only that I've heard) pronunciation is Baff-Oh-Met.

However Baff-Oh-may is a pronunciation I've thought myself because etymologically it seems more correct for medieval english.
Hm, why? My knowledge of Middle English is pretty vague, but English pronunciation used to be much closer to the spelling of words. In Old English everything was basically pronounced as written, with very few exceptions.

Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2020, 11:20:20 pm »
Here is another one of a dozen explanations . . .
The word “Baphomet” is a reversed composition of three abbreviations: Tem. Oph. Ab., standing for the Latin Templi omnium hominum pacis abhas “[The Father or God of] the Temple of Peace Among All Men”. Quite a far cry from the Catholic Inquisition’s ponderous explanation of “Baffomet” as a mere corruption of the name of Mohammed, isn’t it? But then the Inquisitors had to pin something on the Templars, and anti-Islam was all the rage at the time ...

M.A.A. III°, The Cloven Hoof 11/1971

And my own . . . based on the research I have been doing for my grimoire.
BAPHOMET is a composite name. It comes from the Greek declaration; "Baphe, Baphen or Bapheion Meteos" (Baptism of Mete), Mete is none other than the Sophia of the Ophites, who is known otherwise as Acamoth, Prunicos, or Barbelo. This information was compiled during the investigations regarding the allegations against the Knights Templars Order, of whom are already known to have a close association with the Baphomet. The arcane doctrines of the Templars placed the Baphomet right smack in the middle of Roman/Hermetic Arabia, specifically the heretical Sufis who were in direct contact with the Templars. These Sufi sects embraced, among other beliefs, those of the Gnostics and Ophites.

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Mindmaster

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Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2020, 02:52:52 am »
I had a small argument about the correct pronunciation in person, and seems the internet isn't helping me and some guides have one or the other, or even both!


Either Bapho-met


or Bapho-may


Can anyone with a greater knowledge of language or etymology provide me on some insight?

I never really worried about it, because it's not Satan. (I always find it funny that people on the west coast say it like Satin.)

But, I guess since it's a pretty damn made up name anyway. It had been recorded as Baphomet, Baffumetus, Bafomet, Bafometz, Baffometti, Baphometh, and any number of variations.

All we really have in a nutshell is Eliphas Levi's interpretation of a sabbatical goat symbolically and we are uncertain if that's how the Templar's even viewed it, since none of them were around to ask them.

Mostly, from my perspective, this was just an attempt to sort of retcon this symbol into another use so that being said, and since it's a retcon, use it any damn way you want. :D

I don't view it as an important or completely Satanic symbol regardless... as I would say the Sigil of Lucifier or The Leviathan Cross.

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crossfire

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Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2020, 01:44:24 pm »
Well, what is the correct pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton?  How many people actually pronounce Thoth as Tōt?  Is it more important to pronounce something so it conveys understanding or is "correct" pronunciation that conveys confusion to those who might be overhearing more effective?
"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."
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crossfire

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Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2020, 01:54:19 pm »
On a somewhat related note:  Happy Friday the 13th! ;)
"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."
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Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2020, 08:26:40 pm »
Well, what is the correct pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton?  How many people actually pronounce Thoth as Tōt?  Is it more important to pronounce something so it conveys understanding or is "correct" pronunciation that conveys confusion to those who might be overhearing more effective?
Iamblichus taught his students that the power of a name resided in its 'sound' not its meaning, that it was necessary to focus on the pronunciation of the word/name along with a thunderous voice in order to add to the Theater of the Mind during ritual work.

Mesopotamian pronunciations managed to carry over into the classical grimoires, therefore:
BAPHOMET = bah foe mate

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Liu

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Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2020, 08:38:59 pm »
Iamblichus taught his students that the power of a name resided in its 'sound' not its meaning, that it was necessary to focus on the pronunciation of the word/name along with a thunderous voice in order to add to the Theater of the Mind during ritual work.
One should then perhaps look into the studies on onomatopoeia, phonesthemes and other phenomena in which specific sounds are associated with specific meanings beyond individual words or paradigms.

So next time one wants to invoke something firey, one would know that gl is a sound somehow associated with brightness in English (glow, glimmer, glitter, glisten, ...).

Or for a more purely intuitive approach one may simply study some poetry and see whether the sound of it supports the feeling it's supposed to convey.

Quote
Mesopotamian pronunciations managed to carry over into the classical grimoires, therefore:
BAPHOMET = bah foe mate
What do you mean by "Mesopotamian pronunciations" ?
And why mate and not met?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 08:51:39 pm by Liu »

Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2020, 10:56:15 pm »
Mesopotamian languages used vowels this way:
a as in "father"
e as in "whey"
i as in "antique"
o as in "boat"
u as in "Zulu"

Consonants as such:
X as in German "ach"
CH (Same as above)
Q as in "like"
K (Same as above)
SH as in "Shall"
SS as in, perhaps, "lasso"; a hissing "s" common to Arabic languages
Z as in "pizza" a hard "ts" sound, not quiet as in "zoo"

Of course, this is simply an idea and not necessarily how Baphomet is pronounced.

Further ramblings . . . The idea is that the Knights Templar were worshipping this severed head as a god. This is what they were accused of by the French police after being arrested, and in a lot of cases, this is what they confessed to as well. You would just think that this was some weird anomaly in history, happening to one of the most powerful organizations in history at the time, the Knights Templar. They just happened to have this weird obsession with a demon no one had ever heard of before and made up a whole religion around it. It just seems like a strange chapter in history where these knights found a spiritual mascot.

The entire idea is expressed very well by the writings of Albert Mackey in the late 1800’s. He was a well-known Masonic author. In one of the volumes he published and edited, there was an article about an old Arabic magic book in a Masonic lodge library he was a member of. The book talked about Baphomet, describing him as the sun of suns and the moon of moons and the mystery of mysteries.

Baphomet was just a name for something that’s a very big concept —  not just some minor demon that the Knights Templar worshipped for some reason. Later writings influenced by the Templar tradition indicate that this deity is comparable to the transformative power of the universe. Baphomet is a name for a force that can be called upon during magic rituals, alchemy, and other supernatural transformational events. The god is also an intelligence that can be contacted and represents the divine primordial wisdom — which is why the Templars confessed that they believed the head of Baphomet gave them wisdom. It prophesied for them.

In short the Templars created an egregore.

Kitab Eawa' fi Laylat Alsahra' - 'Amir Alzzalam

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Frater Sisyphus

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Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2020, 01:24:10 am »
Well, what is the correct pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton?  How many people actually pronounce Thoth as Tōt?  Is it more important to pronounce something so it conveys understanding or is "correct" pronunciation that conveys confusion to those who might be overhearing more effective?

This is a very valid point I completely agree with

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Liu

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Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2020, 10:33:01 am »
Mesopotamian languages used vowels this way:
a as in "father"
e as in "whey"
i as in "antique"
o as in "boat"
u as in "Zulu"

Consonants as such:
X as in German "ach"
CH (Same as above)
Q as in "like"
K (Same as above)
SH as in "Shall"
SS as in, perhaps, "lasso"; a hissing "s" common to Arabic languages
Z as in "pizza" a hard "ts" sound, not quiet as in "zoo"
Which Mesopotamian languages? Sumerian? Akkadian? Sumerian doesn't even have many of those sounds. I don't really know much any Akkadian, but this overview here at least also doesn't include that many of those: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_language#Phonetics_and_phonology
But that's much too early in history, so I guess you mean whatever was spoken in that region in the 13th/14th century? I don't know which those were, but I guess Arabic and related languages like Aramaic? At least the phonemic inventory of Aramaic seems to be closer to that set of sounds. Yet what's usually transliterated as q is not like k in like but much father back in the throat, and neither Arabic nor Aramaic seem to contain a ts-sound (but a voiced s, i.e. the pizza-z), and it depends very much on the transliteration system what those other sounds would mean, those languages don't use Latin letters after all. So how some people in France spelled something does not necessarily have anything to do with how it was spelled (or even pronounced) in its place of origin.

In any case, English words are not a good way to represent pronunciation of vowels - whey and boat for example contain diphthongs, not single vowels, but I'd strongly assume the e and o in the languages we're talking about here were single vowels. Why don't you use IPA?

Quote
Further ramblings . . . The idea is that the Knights Templar were worshipping this severed head as a god. This is what they were accused of by the French police after being arrested, and in a lot of cases, this is what they confessed to as well. You would just think that this was some weird anomaly in history, happening to one of the most powerful organizations in history at the time, the Knights Templar. They just happened to have this weird obsession with a demon no one had ever heard of before and made up a whole religion around it. It just seems like a strange chapter in history where these knights found a spiritual mascot.
I thought at the time of their downfall the order had already been in decline for decades? But I haven't ever really looked into these matters.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 10:47:17 am by Liu »

Re: baphomet pronounciation
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2020, 06:14:07 pm »
Mesopotamian languages used vowels this way:
a as in "father"
e as in "whey"
i as in "antique"
o as in "boat"
u as in "Zulu"

Consonants as such:
X as in German "ach"
CH (Same as above)
Q as in "like"
K (Same as above)
SH as in "Shall"
SS as in, perhaps, "lasso"; a hissing "s" common to Arabic languages
Z as in "pizza" a hard "ts" sound, not quiet as in "zoo"
Which Mesopotamian languages? Sumerian? Akkadian? Sumerian doesn't even have many of those sounds. I don't really know much any Akkadian, but this overview here at least also doesn't include that many of those: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_language#Phonetics_and_phonology
But that's much too early in history, so I guess you mean whatever was spoken in that region in the 13th/14th century? I don't know which those were, but I guess Arabic and related languages like Aramaic? At least the phonemic inventory of Aramaic seems to be closer to that set of sounds. Yet what's usually transliterated as q is not like k in like but much father back in the throat, and neither Arabic nor Aramaic seem to contain a ts-sound (but a voiced s, i.e. the pizza-z), and it depends very much on the transliteration system what those other sounds would mean, those languages don't use Latin letters after all. So how some people in France spelled something does not necessarily have anything to do with how it was spelled (or even pronounced) in its place of origin.

In any case, English words are not a good way to represent pronunciation of vowels - whey and boat for example contain diphthongs, not single vowels, but I'd strongly assume the e and o in the languages we're talking about here were single vowels. Why don't you use IPA?

Quote
Further ramblings . . . The idea is that the Knights Templar were worshipping this severed head as a god. This is what they were accused of by the French police after being arrested, and in a lot of cases, this is what they confessed to as well. You would just think that this was some weird anomaly in history, happening to one of the most powerful organizations in history at the time, the Knights Templar. They just happened to have this weird obsession with a demon no one had ever heard of before and made up a whole religion around it. It just seems like a strange chapter in history where these knights found a spiritual mascot.
I thought at the time of their downfall the order had already been in decline for decades? But I haven't ever really looked into these matters.
Pronunciations courtesy of the Necronomicon . . . lol  :mrgreen:
However, these pronunciations are common in Sumerian and Egyptian languages and have found their way into the classical grimoires of Europe.

Indeed the Templars were in decline since the late 1100's right up to their demise in 1307. However, this really doesn't have any bearing on their accumulation of Arabian heretical magical rites and philosophies.