Author Topic: Money  (Read 2336 times)

Liu

Re: Money
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2020, 01:37:32 pm »
Why piety? The values I would pit against money are enjoyment and knowledge.

Yet money is the conduit to many forms of enjoyment and knowledge, and piety is the conduit to neither. Whatever enjoyment or knowledge one seems to gain from piety are in fact self-deceit. Piety in general is woven throughout with self-deceit.

Piety is the reason many people take a "best things in life are free" attitude toward life. Sunsets are certainly enjoyable, without question, but for most of us it is pious to choose a sunset over one's favorite food or one's favorite form of entertainment. As for sex, it is one of the most expensive pastimes, at least for the hunter. The hunted can get sex without spending any money.
It doesn't feel like piety to me if I fulfill my desires with stuff I get for free. It's economic thinking - unless it leads me to not use my opportunities due to downplaying my needs.

And I see self-deceit also in believing that something must be better just because it's more expensive.

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Public libraries may seem to offer enjoyment and knowledge for free, but this is an illusion. We pay for public libraries with our taxes. Money well spent, I hasten to add.

Public libraries aren't free even if one disregards taxes, you have to pay an annual fee (even if a fairly small one) to borrow books.
Free "libraries" are open-access-journals, file-sharing services, online forums, public book-exchange places, and similar, and those are hardly paid by taxes.

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I wouldn't either. I would call it an economic decision: weighing the opportunity cost of choosing one particular career against the enjoyment and other rewards the career affords.
Well if you consider that an aspect of economics, everything is.

Mammon is money coming in and money going out, and how and why the money comes in, and how and why the money goes out. Mammon is economics. 
 
Economics is the hydraulics of the anthropological plane.
Yes, all your examples are somehow linked into that, but it still does not seem like the causal mechanism behind all of them - based on what you wrote, there is no economic cause for why your boss lets you work from home after all.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 01:41:16 pm by Liu »

Hapu

Re: Money
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2020, 11:45:03 am »
It doesn't feel like piety to me if I fulfill my desires with stuff I get for free. It's economic thinking - unless it leads me to not use my opportunities due to downplaying my needs.

Your concluding sentence is on the right track. If I go to the library to get a book because that's the cheapest way for me to obtain what I want to read, and I have no need to own what I've read after I've read it, that's economic thinking, as you say. If I forego something I want because I have some notion of the moral excellence of asceticism, that's (a form of) piety. There are other forms of piety, but asceticism is one. Another word for asceticism is abstinence, as in this:

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence.



And I see self-deceit also in believing that something must be better just because it's more expensive.

You're correct in that. I recall an experiment that was done, in which the same product was sold under two different prices, and the higher priced items sold better, despite being identical to the lower priced items. The buyers of the higher priced items were dupes.

Even so, it is generally the case that prices obey the law of supply and demand. High supply, low demand, low price. Low supply, high demand, high price. High supply, high demand, medium price. Low supply, low demand - probably won't be sold at all. Higher prices tend to indicate higher demand. Whether high demand indicates high quality must be assessed on a case by case basis.


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I wouldn't either. I would call it an economic decision: weighing the opportunity cost of choosing one particular career against the enjoyment and other rewards the career affords.
Well if you consider that an aspect of economics, everything is.

Exactly.


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Mammon is money coming in and money going out, and how and why the money comes in, and how and why the money goes out. Mammon is economics. 
 
Economics is the hydraulics of the anthropological plane.
Yes, all your examples are somehow linked into that, but it still does not seem like the causal mechanism behind all of them - based on what you wrote, there is no economic cause for why your boss lets you work from home after all.

It isn't necessary, nor is it the case, that all human decisions are motivated by economics. There will, nevertheless, be economic ramifications to almost every decision. I go to the gym to swim. I do this for health and fitness. I don't do this to make money. Nevertheless, I spend money in order to do it. That's an economic ramification.

Incidentally, one of the reasons my boss's boss lets me work from home is the lower cost to the company, so her motivation is partially economic. Meanwhile, because I work from home, I spend less money on gasoline and automobile maintenance. That's an economic ramification. Also, because I work from home, I earn my income with significantly less effort and psychological strain, which makes employment a better economic deal for me. Also, because my boss's boss lets me work from home, I am far less likely to look for a job elsewhere, and that allows my boss's boss to continue to be able to buy my services, which are economically valuable to the company.

Onyx

Re: Money
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2020, 12:02:39 pm »
Quote from: Hapu
I recall an experiment that was done, in which the same product was sold under two different prices, and the higher priced items sold better, despite being identical to the lower priced items.

I've heard of businesses doing stuff like that. One guy claimed he had two vacuum cleaners of similar make (but different colors) on display, and that the one he artificially priced higher sold better.

Edit: I'm reminded of a now-defunct grocery store, who for years sold jars of peanut butter and jelly with their own branding for more than the generic ones produced by the same company. Besides the label, they were identical. It's hilarious.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 05:33:44 pm by Onyx »

Onyx

Re: Money
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2020, 06:31:51 pm »
I'm re-arranging the altar for my next invocation of Mammon. There is paper money in the shopping cart (and coins in the drawer) so the sounds will be made through direct interaction. Similar working but removed from the computer.

One of my final preperations involves how best to incorporate the Seal of Mammon. @Hapu suggested to perform the ritual as-is, which I at least highly recommend the first time around.

To me, the whole idea is logically sound and one I will continue to explore.

Hapu

Re: Money
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2020, 09:53:21 pm »
I'm re-arranging the altar for my next invocation of Mammon. There is paper money in the shopping cart (and coins in the drawer) so the sounds will be made through direct interaction. Similar working but removed from the computer.

I adore the shopping cart.


One of my final preperations involves how best to incorporate the Seal of Mammon. @Hapu suggested to perform the ritual as-is, which I at least highly recommend the first time around.

To me, the whole idea is logically sound and one I will continue to explore.

I may have the Seal made into a medallion. Someone on Etsy could surely do it.

Maybe for your ritual you could incorporate an actual chocolate bar for the aroma.

Hapu

Re: Money
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2020, 11:07:14 am »
I discard 2 and pick up 3.

2: internal and external universes.

3: subjective plane, anthropological plane, physical plane.

The mindset of 2 allows only 2 domains in which a ritual can succeed: the internal and the external. This is accurate but unhelpful. The non-internal is too vast under this mindset. It includes, for example, planets and stars, and because I have zero expectation of my ritual affecting, for example, planets and stars, I dupe myself into thinking my ritual can only affect my internal universe.

The mindset of 3 allows 3 domains in which a ritual can succeed: my subjective plane, the anthropological plane, and the physical plane. I have every expectation of a ritual succeeding on my subjective plane. I generally have zero expectation of a ritual succeeding on the physical plane. In between these two extremes is the middle domain, the anthropological plane, and it is there that serious magic is done.

It is on the anthropological plane that the demons sit their thrones, and greatest among them is Mammon, for economic transactions provide the conduits by which nearly all else of any import can manifest. Think of the demons as an organized crime family. Mammon is the Don.

Our compatriot idgo did magic to manifest copper wire. He found the copper wire while digging in the earth. He spent no money! Was Mammon uninvolved, then? Hardly. Someone spent money to purchase copper wire, or else someone stole it, and even theft is Mammon, for to spend or to steal is an economic decision. Whoever bought or stole the wire had extra when finished. This extra, on purpose or by accident, was discarded, and got buried under dirt, and was dug up by idgo. The conduits by which the wire manifested for idgo were provided by economic transactions.

Give the devil his due.

idgo

Re: Money
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2020, 05:17:26 pm »
I discard 2 and pick up 3.

2: internal and external universes.

3: subjective plane, anthropological plane, physical plane.

The mindset of 2 allows only 2 domains in which a ritual can succeed: the internal and the external. This is accurate but unhelpful. The non-internal is too vast under this mindset. It includes, for example, planets and stars, and because I have zero expectation of my ritual affecting, for example, planets and stars, I dupe myself into thinking my ritual can only affect my internal universe.

The mindset of 3 allows 3 domains in which a ritual can succeed: my subjective plane, the anthropological plane, and the physical plane. I have every expectation of a ritual succeeding on my subjective plane. I generally have zero expectation of a ritual succeeding on the physical plane. In between these two extremes is the middle domain, the anthropological plane, and it is there that serious magic is done.

Well noted, how if our SU/OU "dichotomy" has indeed a line between them, it will have those problems of limitation. When I look for the line in my own usage of them, though, I find not a division but a spectrum. Some things are absolutely and exclusively interior to my mind -- they arise from within it after many levels of indirection from any external stimuli they might have been based upon, and never have cause to exit my subjective experience. Other things are extremely external to me -- they are little details among others, which only affect me (if at all) through side effects of their side effects. But most things are of intermediate internality/externality: some contributing factors are useful to describe as having come from within me, while others are useful to describe as coming from without.

The habit of glossing them into a duality, however, is rather untidy.

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Our compatriot idgo did magic to manifest copper wire. He found the copper wire while digging in the earth. He spent no money! Was Mammon uninvolved, then? Hardly. Someone spent money to purchase copper wire, or else someone stole it, and even theft is Mammon, for to spend or to steal is an economic decision. Whoever bought or stole the wire had extra when finished. This extra, on purpose or by accident, was discarded, and got buried under dirt, and was dug up by idgo. The conduits by which the wire manifested for idgo were provided by economic transactions.

Give the devil his due.

I prefer to call it having had good luck -- helps reality heal back up after an improbability, banishes the sort of expectations that might encourage a reliance on improbability to meet future needs, and so on. But since you like my luck, I'll point out where it can be tied to Mammon even more tightly than you've already discerned:

1) That copper might have been in the ground because someone dropped and lost it, but by far the highest probability (based on my knowledge of the people who have lived here for the past ~100 years) for how it got there is that tossing it into the bushes was the cheapest way to be rid of it. We could credit Mammon with goading some past builder to toss their rubbish out into the local ecology rather than hiring a service to properly remove it away toss it into some more remote and socially sanctioned ecology instead.

2) I was engaged in the recreation of purchasing and subsequently planting a tree, and at liberty to pick a spot for the tree which seemed nice on the spur of the moment rather than having over-planned over months of saving up for the project, because my general career and lifestyle engage me with Mammon in a way that we both seem to find satisfactory. From owning land that I consider worth investing perennial plants into, to having the free time to put them in myself, to having the disposable income to happen to pick up that second tree when it jumped out at me, in the world of understanding-through-Mammon it is Mammon all the way down.

Oh, and a little more of the story of why I was planting that tree in the first place might amuse: I was purchasing a fruit tree from a seller at a market, because I like participating in a world where they sell trees at markets so I make a point of being sure to buy some now and again, as the world gets more of what we collectively pay for. This seller brings bare-root fruit trees to the market at this time of year -- all the apples are together with their roots wrapped with sawdust and burlap, all the peaches are together similarly, and so forth. I had only really planned on getting one tree, but as the seller knealt to separate it from the bundle of its species, a single tree from a neighboring bundle fell over onto the tree I was purchasing! On an impulse, I bought the second tree too, joking that it looked like it wanted to come along. I had an idea of where I'd plant the first tree, but since the second tree hopped into my order unexpectedly, I had to wander all around finding it a site. And once we (well, my desires for how I'd like my garden to look, plus my expectations about what the tree would need in order to give me the tastiest food) came to an agreement on where to put it, that was where the chunk of metal I'd been looking for turned up.

We could go many ways from here -- we could call the tree a lucky tree, we could call me a person who has luck, we could fall in a hole about how improbable the whole thing was and ruminate on the unlikelihood that it would ever happen again, or we could personify any sort of deity of things happening and attribute part or all of the story to their intervention. What the ease of applying the Mammon-concept to the story shows to me personally is that this Mammon-concept is shaped right to take a seat as a full-fledged God; it has the required combination of specificity and flexibility.

Hapu

Re: Money
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2020, 12:13:42 am »
...But since you like my luck, I'll point out where it can be tied to Mammon even more tightly than you've already discerned:

Your examples show a good understanding of how the Wyrd is woven throughout with economics. Or we can set aside the tapestry metaphor and think instead of the human body as perceived by a master of Kyoshu Jitsu. Economics is the pressure points the master can grip and thereby control the whole body.


We could go many ways from here -- we could call the tree a lucky tree, we could call me a person who has luck, we could fall in a hole about how improbable the whole thing was and ruminate on the unlikelihood that it would ever happen again, or we could personify any sort of deity of things happening and attribute part or all of the story to their intervention. What the ease of applying the Mammon-concept to the story shows to me personally is that this Mammon-concept is shaped right to take a seat as a full-fledged God; it has the required combination of specificity and flexibility.

Yes.

I'll add a little more to the cosmology. Think of Hell as the Old Country and Earth as the New World. (The analogy being drawn is to Italy and the United States in relation to the Mafia.) Satan is the Don in the Old Country and  Mammon is the Don in the New World.

Onyx

Re: Money
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2020, 06:57:47 pm »
Quote from: Hapu
I adore the shopping cart.

The Satanic Cross I hung upon the cart made a nice "cha-ching" sound as I pulled a $20 bill from it today. Hail Mammon!

Hapu

Re: The Mammonite Blasphemy
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2020, 10:34:42 am »
When you read this, you may feel the urge to smirk or chuckle. That's to be expected and is even to some extent intended. Blasphemy will always be a little ridiculous. Just remember that (apparent) absurdity sheds light on truths that are normally obscured in darkness. Also remember that something can simultaneously be ridiculous and sublime.

THE MAMMONITE BLASPHEMY

Opulent Mammon,
Outcast Angel of Money and Its Purposes,
great and profound is your name.
Your empire spread,
your dominion be fed,
from Earth to every habitable world.

Give us this day all manner of assets and income,
reduce our liabilities and expenses,
and increase our equity.
Lead us in the paths of profit for your name's sake,
and deliver us from loss.

For yours is the property, the manpower, and the liquidity,
forever.

Liu

Re: Money
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2020, 07:01:09 pm »
To me that doesn't feel ridiculous but pious. In a good way. In the sense of an expression of heart-felt devotion.

But lol @ the ambiguity of "equity".

It doesn't feel like piety to me if I fulfill my desires with stuff I get for free. It's economic thinking - unless it leads me to not use my opportunities due to downplaying my needs.

Your concluding sentence is on the right track. If I go to the library to get a book because that's the cheapest way for me to obtain what I want to read, and I have no need to own what I've read after I've read it, that's economic thinking, as you say. If I forego something I want because I have some notion of the moral excellence of asceticism, that's (a form of) piety.
But what if one has the notion that asceticism is good for one's mental wellbeing? I don't get morals but I get certain forms of asceticism. E.g. you may abstain from sweets not only for your physical health but also in order to make other food taste more enjoyable or to overcome the unpleasant cravings related to an addiction or to challenge your willpower. Doesn't mean you don't still want those sweets, but you also want these other benefits, and so you decide for that aspect of the will of yours that happens to fit under the label of asceticism.
Or what other reasons do people have for asceticism? All explanations for it I heard thus far, except for "because my religion says so", where of that kind. Well I guess one can also just believe in asceticism because it sounds right. Which is not bad per se, just going by feeling/intuition is often necessary after all. Which, incidentally, seems not too far off from what you are doing here:

It isn't necessary, nor is it the case, that all human decisions are motivated by economics. There will, nevertheless, be economic ramifications to almost every decision. I go to the gym to swim. I do this for health and fitness. I don't do this to make money. Nevertheless, I spend money in order to do it. That's an economic ramification.
I see - magickal/associative thinking, not causal/logical thinking.

Limiting things to the anthropological plane does not make any difference really on the causal level, but it feels like it, thereby making it easier to buy into it (pun not intended).

The difference to the pious (in your sense) person is which exactly? I can think of several points that may differ, but perhaps you want to explain it yourself which ones apply?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 07:02:50 pm by Liu »

Hapu

Re: Money
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2020, 01:45:10 am »
But what if one has the notion that asceticism is good for one's mental wellbeing? I don't get morals but I get certain forms of asceticism. E.g. you may abstain from sweets not only for your physical health but also in order to make other food taste more enjoyable or to overcome the unpleasant cravings related to an addiction or to challenge your willpower. Doesn't mean you don't still want those sweets, but you also want these other benefits, and so you decide for that aspect of the will of yours that happens to fit under the label of asceticism.

All of that seems plausible and you're right, none of it is piety.
 

Or what other reasons do people have for asceticism? All explanations for it I heard thus far, except for "because my religion says so", were of that kind.

Physical or mental health or long term gain.


Limiting things to the anthropological plane does not make any difference really on the causal level, but it feels like it, thereby making it easier to buy into it (pun not intended).

I don't believe magic can alter the physical plane. Do a thousand rituals and you won't succeed at changing the color of the carpet. But magic can certainly alter the anthropological plane. Do one ritual well and you may redirect the vectors of human processes and lo and behold, the old carpet will be replaced, and the new carpet will be the color you wanted.


The difference to the pious (in your sense) person is which exactly? I can think of several points that may differ, but perhaps you want to explain it yourself which ones apply?

I don't understand your question. Difference between what and what?

Hapu

Re: Money
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2020, 01:53:27 am »
I put in a claim for a damaged office chair and was pleasantly surprised to be awarded a full refund, and the process was quick and painless. Mammon takes care of his own.


Onyx

Re: Money
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2020, 04:56:29 pm »
Dear @Hapu, since I was unable to find a match, I was wondering if this Seal of Mammon is one of your own design or originated somewhere else. (It really doesn't matter as I prefer it to others I've seen, just curious.)

Km Anu

Re: Money
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2020, 05:17:21 pm »
We ran out of money, but I had saved 200 dollars in a jar around November for yuletide gifts and I guess we didnt use it. Without it we wouldnt have had groceries this week. I'm still not sure if this was a blessing but I'm  choosing to view it as such. I've yet to perform the ritual again though, I'm a little under the weather at the moment.