Author Topic: Chakras (and qi gong)  (Read 159 times)

Liu

Chakras (and qi gong)
« on: October 20, 2019, 04:51:56 pm »
Anyone here having experience with the chakras?

I'm currently reading through Asenath Mason's Draconian Ritual Book, and the first exercise (after some ritual opening rite I've not yet tried) is a chakra meditation.

And I have basically three questions.

1., one is supposed to vibrate a mantra (some syllable like vam, lam, etc) at each chakra. But that actually makes it more difficult for me to focus on the visualization of the energy moving from chakra to chakra and on feeling the chakras themselves. I can feel them quite well if I just focus on those parts of the body, with some very basic visualizing perhaps (e.g. energy as a simple stream, and perhaps also the color associated with the chakra or which psychological area it symbolizes), whereas trying to include more details (e.g. the energy as a serpent or the chakras as flowers) usually mutes the sensations I get, and vibrating the mantras moves my focus to my respiratory system and I immediately fully lose sensation in the chakra I was focusing on.

I think the vibrating is supposed to make one feel that stuff also throughout one's body in general, but it rather causes me to feel nothing.

Does that mean I should simply practice more? I didn't give that approach many tries yet as it feels so discouraging.

2., since I recently learnt a qi gong meditation I'm using those points instead of the more typical chakra points.
I.e. svadisthana and anahata being on the front side instead of along the spine (at the lower and middle dan tian points, they are basically opposite to the traditional chakra points), and vishuddha in the shoulder and neck area instead of the throat proper.

For that qi gong meditation I learnt, you basically start at the lower dan tian (slightly below the navel), move down to the perineum, from there up the spine following muladhara and manipura, then further up to the shoulders and the back of the head (the latter of which Mason also calls a chakra point to which one could go after sahasrara), to sahasrara, to ajna, and then down to the breastbone (opposite of anahata) back to the beginning.

So if I use those points for a chakra meditation, otherwise following Mason's instructions on the order of the chakras, I'd go zig-zag up through the body from muladhara until ajna, then to sahasrara, then to the back of the head, and then straight back down to muladhara (perhaps first to the perineum).
The advantage I see in going zig-zag, as opposed to just following the spine, seems to me (besides being used to those points and so finding it easier to feel them) that the meditation doesn't just focus on the spine and head but encompasses the whole torso, especially when I consider the focus points rather layers than points.

The description in the book could also be interpreted to work like that, but it's fairly ambiguous.

Does that sound like a good idea?

3., one is supposed to remain at a given chakra until it's fully awakened, but what's that supposed to mean?

During the qi gong meditation I may go through the whole system within a couple seconds (well often I do slow down a bit more, especially during the first rounds, spending a few seconds at each point), whereas that rather sounds like spending many seconds or even minutes on each chakra and doing only one round in total.


Edit: Regarding my 1st question, I don't think focusing on the vibrating and simultaneously on specific points of the body in general is the problem - in the qi gong book I have the qi gong meditation from also mentions some movement exercises with an accompanying one-syllable mantra, and instructs one to focus on specific body parts (e.g. thumbs, balls of the feet,...), and there the mantras don't bother me in the slightest. But there the focus is also mainly on the movement, secondarily on the mantra, and only thirdly if at all on the body part of focus.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 06:43:07 pm by Liu »

Km Anu

Re: Chakras (and qi gong)
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2019, 01:32:33 am »



one is supposed to vibrate a mantra (some syllable like vam, lam, etc) at each chakra. But that actually makes it more difficult for me to focus on the visualization of the energy moving from chakra to chakra and on feeling the chakras themselves. I can feel them quite well if I just focus on those parts of the body, with some very basic visualizing perhaps (e.g. energy as a simple stream, and perhaps also the color associated with the chakra or which psychological area it symbolizes), whereas trying to include more details (e.g. the energy as a serpent or the chakras as flowers) usually mutes the sensations I get, and vibrating the mantras moves my focus to my respiratory system and I immediately fully lose sensation in the chakra I was focusing on.

I think the vibrating is supposed to make one feel that stuff also throughout one's body in general, but it rather causes me to feel nothing.

Does that mean I should simply practice more? I didn't give that approach many tries yet as it feels so discouraging.


Ah, I had this issue when learning to get to clear light, the function is probably similar.  I didn't expect this,  but I finally figured it out later on  studying Reiki. Im my first fiance reiki attempt (the one where I learned reiki is pseudoscience first hand) I was using the Gayatri mantra focusing on moving energy from the root to the sacral chakra. I beleive I was sitting in half lotus and was beginning to sway as I recited, uttering grounding vibrations where they felt intuitive.

When I moved From Ohm to Aum mentally,  I heard what sounded like a plane crash followed by a loud ringing in the ears only.....it felt like it was coming from behind me. It actually freaked me out and shut down the trance state. I kept at it for two hours and got there again.

What I'm getting at is that it didnt feel like a vibration, it sounded like a tone. Higher states felt like vibrations so fast that they were slow, like how rim's look like they're spinning slowly on fast moving car tires. At the 3rd eye chakra it felt like my face was on a hammock that was swinging in full circles.

Something to note is that imagining the sensations as you experience them the first time helps,  but if you form opinions about the process it stops.  The only way to get through that is to try again,  sometimes for a long time.  Past the point of giving up. You want to not even know why you're doing it anymore and just do it anyway.  They come easier from that kind of self instilled blind faith in your own will.

since I recently learnt a qi gong meditation I'm using those points instead of the more typical chakra points.
I.e. svadisthana and anahata being on the front side instead of along the spine (at the lower and middle dan tian points, they are basically opposite to the traditional chakra points), and vishuddha in the shoulder and neck area instead of the throat proper.

For that qi gong meditation I learnt, you basically start at the lower dan tian (slightly below the navel), move down to the perineum, from there up the spine following muladhara and manipura, then further up to the shoulders and the back of the head (the latter of which Mason also calls a chakra point to which one could go after sahasrara), to sahasrara, to ajna, and then down to the breastbone (opposite of anahata) back to the beginning.

So if I use those points for a chakra meditation, otherwise following Mason's instructions on the order of the chakras, I'd go zig-zag up through the body from muladhara until ajna, then to sahasrara, then to the back of the head, and then straight back down to muladhara (perhaps first to the perineum).
The advantage I see in going zig-zag, as opposed to just following the spine, seems to me (besides being used to those points and so finding it easier to feel them) that the meditation doesn't just focus on the spine and head but encompasses the whole torso, especially when I consider the focus points rather layers than points.

The description in the book could also be interpreted to work like that, but it's fairly ambiguous.

Does that sound like a good idea?

This is an opinion.

In my experience chakras are simply bodily places to Express elements of self. I think my sexual power comes from my crotch so I romanticize it as my sexual center of power or sacral chakra. If you remove all of my sexual parts, it's not like I wont understand sexuality anymore.

The chakra system is one of many systems that shows people easy places to Express their power without externalizing it. In trance states the body responds to the demands of consciousness to place the power there that the body sends a symbol to you're brain when it's done it, and you have a unique perceptory phenomenon that communicates your expected outcome. The psyche is the deciding factor here, not the system used to understand it.

But that only works if you can know it in your heart, so to speak. You have to beleive it, or you can just beleive in the system used. Either way, doubt becomes a barrier that ends the sensations and breaks the trance state. It's almost like self hypnotism. If you're no longer accepting the suggestions you present yourself, the hypnotic state and its benifits desolve. 


one is supposed to remain at a given chakra until it's fully awakened, but what's that supposed to mean?

During the qi gong meditation I may go through the whole system within a couple seconds (well often I do slow down a bit more, especially during the first rounds, spending a few seconds at each point), whereas that rather sounds like spending many seconds or even minutes on each chakra and doing only one round in total.


Edit: Regarding my 1st question, I don't think focusing on the vibrating and simultaneously on specific points of the body in general is the problem - in the qi gong book I have the qi gong meditation from also mentions some movement exercises with an accompanying one-syllable mantra, and instructs one to focus on specific body parts (e.g. thumbs, balls of the feet,...), and there the mantras don't bother me in the slightest. But there the focus is also mainly on the movement, secondarily on the mantra, and only thirdly if at all on the body part of focus.


I really think that the same things that make us unique as people effect the way these sensations arise, specifically the way our mental landscapes manifest.

I attune laying on my back with my arms crossed over my chest and I mentally recite a mantra, usually slow and short enough to match my breathing.

"Make me whole. Let me be. I am you, and you are me."

I breath with the syllables.  There comes a point early on when patterns like flowers closing dance on my eyelids, and I match that with a symbolic representation of that chakra. When the pattern speeds up (like when the chorus is coming in a song) my awareness automatically moves upwards to the next chakra. In my mind this doesnt correlate with the body part, just the symbolic representation of the chakra, and it moves up like a thermometer spiking up, except instead of mercury its light. Just a bar of light jumping upwards. The image is nearly involuntary, and to focus on it makes it go away. Almost the way that you can continue a dream if you focus on it right after you wake up, but if you try too hard you wont fall back asleep.

It seems this book presents an approach that is too distracting for you. You might try the same method, but only in one position. And instead of focusing on sensations of the physical body, visualize an astral body in your minds eye and move your awareness through its chakras, understanding that it represents yourself.

Also, dont worry so much about physical sensations, they come at much higher chakras. Look for those dancing patterns, those ringing sounds, the urge to rock, ect ect. Indulge those sensations and understand that they may be different for you. As magicians, our intuition is more doubtless than our minds. We must trust it to lead us towards our goal.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 01:57:34 am by Km Anu »

Liu

Re: Chakras (and qi gong)
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2019, 04:55:14 pm »
Thanks for your reply!

Ah, I had this issue when learning to get to clear light, the function is probably similar.  I didn't expect this,  but I finally figured it out later on  studying Reiki. Im my first fiance reiki attempt (the one where I learned reiki is pseudoscience first hand) I was using the Gayatri mantra focusing on moving energy from the root to the sacral chakra. I beleive I was sitting in half lotus and was beginning to sway as I recited, uttering grounding vibrations where they felt intuitive.

When I moved From Ohm to Aum mentally,  I heard what sounded like a plane crash followed by a loud ringing in the ears only.....it felt like it was coming from behind me. It actually freaked me out and shut down the trance state. I kept at it for two hours and got there again.

What I'm getting at is that it didnt feel like a vibration, it sounded like a tone. Higher states felt like vibrations so fast that they were slow, like how rim's look like they're spinning slowly on fast moving car tires. At the 3rd eye chakra it felt like my face was on a hammock that was swinging in full circles.

Something to note is that imagining the sensations as you experience them the first time helps,  but if you form opinions about the process it stops.  The only way to get through that is to try again,  sometimes for a long time.  Past the point of giving up. You want to not even know why you're doing it anymore and just do it anyway.  They come easier from that kind of self instilled blind faith in your own will.
Hm, not sure whether I get your point. My problem isn't getting the sensations, it's that adding the mantra lessens the sensations (but see below, I might have found a way to include the mantra).
As I said, I still often get strong sensations immediately from just focusing on the chakra points, and sometimes even without.

I sometimes even get spontaneous jolts of energy flowing along my back randomly throughout the day, since before I ever did anything spiritual (mentioned that here a while ago: http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?topic=872.0).

But nothing of the things you are mentioning (sounds, feeling of movement). Once I get the sensations flowing I may get semi-spontaneous visualizations related to the symbolism, though.
If I understand you correctly, one is supposed to also have other sensations or feelings from it besides the energy/tingling moving around? And I should just continue practicing until I get any such?

Swaying and shaking spontaneously feels good, but I haven't noticed any relation between it and the chakra meditation. It might trigger/strengthen spontaneous feelings in the chakras, though, not sure.

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This is an opinion.

In my experience chakras are simply bodily places to Express elements of self. I think my sexual power comes from my crotch so I romanticize it as my sexual center of power or sacral chakra. If you remove all of my sexual parts, it's not like I wont understand sexuality anymore.

The chakra system is one of many systems that shows people easy places to Express their power without externalizing it. In trance states the body responds to the demands of consciousness to place the power there that the body sends a symbol to you're brain when it's done it, and you have a unique perceptory phenomenon that communicates your expected outcome. The psyche is the deciding factor here, not the system used to understand it.

But that only works if you can know it in your heart, so to speak. You have to beleive it, or you can just beleive in the system used. Either way, doubt becomes a barrier that ends the sensations and breaks the trance state. It's almost like self hypnotism. If you're no longer accepting the suggestions you present yourself, the hypnotic state and its benifits desolve. 
As you said, this likely only works properly if one "believes" that the chakras represent certain aspects of the psyche - which isn't difficult to believe for me actually - but if I'm not supposed to put any focus on their meanings during the meditation, it seems unlikely to me to have the intended effect.

The qi gong meditation doesn't even mention any meanings for most of them and the chakra meditation doesn't mention that one should think of the chakras' meanings - only of the colors that symbolize them.

The symbolism actually can be fairly easily mapped onto other systems I'm already familiar with - autogenic training, 7 planets - possibly even kabbalah, but I'd need to look into that first. So I probably already associate the chakra areas of the body with something roughly in line with their "actual" associations even if I don't think about these meanings. But whether that connection is that strong that the physical sensations would tell anything about the corresponding psychological aspects...

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I really think that the same things that make us unique as people effect the way these sensations arise, specifically the way our mental landscapes manifest.
Well, that's why there's the LHP, isn't it? Because the standard approaches don't work the same for everyone.

Quote
I attune laying on my back with my arms crossed over my chest and I mentally recite a mantra, usually slow and short enough to match my breathing.

"Make me whole. Let me be. I am you, and you are me."

I breath with the syllables.  There comes a point early on when patterns like flowers closing dance on my eyelids, and I match that with a symbolic representation of that chakra. When the pattern speeds up (like when the chorus is coming in a song) my awareness automatically moves upwards to the next chakra. In my mind this doesnt correlate with the body part, just the symbolic representation of the chakra, and it moves up like a thermometer spiking up, except instead of mercury its light. Just a bar of light jumping upwards. The image is nearly involuntary, and to focus on it makes it go away. Almost the way that you can continue a dream if you focus on it right after you wake up, but if you try too hard you wont fall back asleep.
That would basically be focusing only on the symbolism and not on any body parts or sensations (unless they arise spontaneously), wouldn't it?

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It seems this book presents an approach that is too distracting for you. You might try the same method, but only in one position. And instead of focusing on sensations of the physical body, visualize an astral body in your minds eye and move your awareness through its chakras, understanding that it represents yourself.
Whereas this would be focusing not on the symbolism but on a visualization of the body parts instead of on the actual body parts.

Well if I do that immediately after my normal approach, I still feel the chakra points so strongly that just thinking about the chakra in question will strengthen the tingling in that chakra, and there the mantra actually is supporting that.

If I try the same approach without my normal chakra meditation immediately beforehand, I again get feelings in the chakra points of my physical body, but less strong than if I put my attention on my physical body.

In any approach, if I add a mantra, it takes a bit getting used to to have the inhalation breaks interrupt things and keeping up the visualization nevertheless. It seems to work best if I focus on one chakra per syllable/exhalation, and then move to the next during the inhalation.

And I still don't really understand how to tell when I should move to the next one. Once I get properly started from the first to the second (which may take a few tries) I pretty much directly flow through the remainder so quickly that all together take me only a few seconds most times, no matter the approach, or one chakra per exhalation if I add the mantra. Sometimes I get stuck on one for some moments, or loose focus and start again at an earlier point, though.

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Also, dont worry so much about physical sensations, they come at much higher chakras. Look for those dancing patterns, those ringing sounds, the urge to rock, ect ect. Indulge those sensations and understand that they may be different for you. As magicians, our intuition is more doubtless than our minds. We must trust it to lead us towards our goal.
Well I don't even know what is supposed to be the goal. According to Mason it's supposed to make one feel "empowered and awakened". Wouldn't spontaneously describe it like that, it rather makes me sleepy - but what doesn't, currently - and calm. And sometimes annoyed/frustrated due to things not working as described. It may also help against headaches and warm up the extremities, I think.

Also she mentions some physical and psychological issues that unbalanced chakras could cause - but how do you tell whether they are unbalanced? By being stuck at them more often than at others?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 04:56:57 pm by Liu »

Liu

Re: Chakras (and qi gong)
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2019, 06:57:32 pm »
Continued reading a bit, and seems like some of the next exercises combine the chakra meditation with visualizations of fire.
Guess it comes in handy that the meditation has a similar effect on increasing body heat as I'm already familiar with from autogenic training. On a similar note, many rituals involve visualizing one's aura in the shape of a dragon. Well, not too different from my mental bodymap, so that's easy.

Also practiced a bit more and the chakra blockages are even rarer now. But no other difference.
I don't use mantras often, though, didn't notice any advantage to them thus far beyond making things go more slowly and you can't do that everywhere.

I don't know in what order to continue with the exercises in the book as they are rather sorted by method than by difficulty etc. But there are some on practicing the psychic senses, which is described as a basic skill needed for the remainder, so I guess that's up next.
The notion of clairvoyance, clairaudience etc. therein is a bit different from what I expected. It's less about just opening oneself up to random visions rising from the subconscious (in which case I would wonder what would be the difference to the random mental images or earworms etc. one gets throughout the day anyway).
Instead it's about visualizing one's surroundings (or any other place) and paying attention to how one's vision differs from what one would perceive if one would use one's physical senses.
I guess I should just give it a try and then report back.

@Km Anu Can I expect any further input from your side on my questions to your reply? I'd appreciate it.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 07:00:08 pm by Liu »

Km Anu

Re: Chakras (and qi gong)
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2019, 07:15:12 pm »

@Km Anu Can I expect any further input from your side on my questions to your reply? I'd appreciate it.

My apologies,  I completely forgot about this thread, I'll see if I can formulate a response after I drop my son off

Liu

Re: Chakras (and qi gong)
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2019, 07:23:11 pm »

@Km Anu Can I expect any further input from your side on my questions to your reply? I'd appreciate it.

My apologies,  I completely forgot about this thread, I'll see if I can formulate a response after I drop my son off
Thanks in advance! And no need to hurry, only gonna read that tomorrow anyway.

Km Anu

Re: Chakras (and qi gong)
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2019, 03:59:16 am »
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Hm, not sure whether I get your point. My problem isn't getting the sensations, it's that adding the mantra lessens the sensations (but see below, I might have found a way to include the mantra).
As I said, I still often get strong sensations immediately from just focusing on the chakra points, and sometimes even without.

Ah, so you're doing just fine without them.  They likely aren't necessary for you,  which is interesting.  Mantras just give thoughts substance and rhythm, but the substance is empty. This took me a long time to understand and is very subjective,  but I used to spend a long time trying to memorize new mantras to fit whatever work I was doing until I discovered a simple one that I connected with.  I figured out I could use it for anything, but ONLY in the way I heard it. I have to replay myself saying it with my eyes closed in my head as I do it in reality. Doing this to a slow rhythm establishes some kind of resonance that builds during the session. 

I beleive it just gives a pattern to align thinking with,  and so the words are unimportant.

You might like Unda by Faun. It starts slow and gets faster, but on your own that will happen intuitively. Also the mantra doest HAVE to be spoken. Usually it helps if you're doing something fast and active but hinders in a quiet calm environment


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And I should just continue practicing until I get any such?

Movement comes beyond the 2nd halfstep, impossible movement and tonal pitches beyond the third. And this is from experience,  it may be different for you, but maybe not : )

I had to invest hours. I have circadian cycle issues, so this was best done around 3pm for me after a shower, skyclad.

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As you said, this likely only works properly if one "believes" that the chakras represent certain aspects of the psyche - which isn't difficult to believe for me actually - but if I'm not supposed to put any focus on their meanings during the meditation, it seems unlikely to me to have the intended effect.

I'm speaking simply of compounding will, some would say building energy. I theorize that every time a connection is made with a chakra, energy must be invested into it. A beleif is like a little generator that makes the chakra function. You give it substance and form via the visualization, and then you stick a little "faith in my ability to control what I beleive to get what I want," battery in it.

If you're comfortable with altering the structure of the system you're learning, it might not be a bad idea for progression's sake. You can always re visit the origional structure once it's components come better. I've done it a few times.

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Well, that's why there's the LHP, isn't it? Because the standard approaches don't work the same for everyone.

True, but I mean more the way we perceive creative thoughts as they unfold, lol

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That would basically be focusing only on the symbolism and not on any body parts or sensations (unless they arise spontaneously), wouldn't it?

Precisely. But it must be done INTUITIVELY, free of concious thought.  I did this by just doing longer sessions less often.  Perhaps two 4 hour sessions a week instead of daily 2 hour sessions.

I wonder if one could make a sigil for that actually....

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Whereas this would be focusing not on the symbolism but on a visualization of the body parts instead of on the actual body parts.

For myself is more the chakras Location in the body,  not the parts of the body itself. It helps me with the movement. I move through the body with the chakras,  like being on the magic schoolbus inside the astral body, if you get the reference. I'm not the best with words  :facepalm:

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In any approach, if I add a mantra, it takes a bit getting used to to have the inhalation breaks interrupt things and keeping up the visualization nevertheless. It seems to work best if I focus on one chakra per syllable/exhalation, and then move to the next during the inhalation.

And I still don't really understand how to tell when I should move to the next one. Once I get properly started from the first to the second (which may take a few tries) I pretty much directly flow through the remainder so quickly that all together take me only a few seconds most times, no matter the approach, or one chakra per exhalation if I add the mantra. Sometimes I get stuck on one for some moments, or loose focus and start again at an earlier point, though.

I'm at a loss here, I've never experienced this.  You could try 1 mantra on a loop and change the speed as you move through.

You could also just continue going, like a loop. If the frequency of pattern is the issue, increasing the rate over time may serve a similar function.

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Well I don't even know what is supposed to be the goal. According to Mason it's supposed to make one feel "empowered and awakened". Wouldn't spontaneously describe it like that, it rather makes me sleepy - but what doesn't, currently - and calm. And sometimes annoyed/frustrated due to things not working as described. It may also help against headaches and warm up the extremities, I think.

The goal is a deep and restorative trance state. I don't know if you've ever done DMT, but it feels dreamy like that, but no visuals and the time distortion is more mild. Maybe sort of like amanita muscaria, but it doesnt hurt. It's purely mental. It's useful for the following (in my experience) :

Restorarion:

A 20 minute session (attainable with practice) in the state will feel like a 4 hour nap with no grogginess. The effect feels like a nootropics, and may be indicative of elevated serotonin.

Intuition:

After leaving the state intuition is strong, and speech comes clearly and truely with little preconceptive contemplation.

Inspiration:

Intuition combines with slight visualization when leaving the trace state to inspire new symbolic associations in the mind, may be an effect of elevated seratonin and dopamine creating new connects between associative neurons in the cerebral cortex.

Confidence:

Acting on acceptable intuitive impulses granted after your session manifest in confident affect

And in the state:

Mental control:

Like lucid dreaming. It feels like reality and thoughts swap place in terms of perceptory priority, creating the effect of being inside your self as if it was a physical space or other world. You can still see the physical space you're in in reality, but it's more incomporeal

I'm doing the best I can here xD

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Also she mentions some physical and psychological issues that unbalanced chakras could cause - but how do you tell whether they are unbalanced? By being stuck at them more often than at others?

See, I think the point is to use the chakras to communicate with parts of your psyche that are damaged.

Ex. I am stressed and irritable. Noticing a change in my mood, I do some sensing and cleansing work, discovering a block in my throat chakra. Once removed, I feel better and go throughout my day confidently, thus healing the block.

I find a block in my sacral chakra and realize I have not been able to get myself in a sexual mindset because I have not been drinking enough water. I attribute the realization to healing the sacral chakra.

The point is that the active modality for sensing problems and for solving them is provided by the trance state. The chakras are tools to sense problems in oneself and channel solutions. Imo


« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 05:04:06 am by Km Anu »

Liu

Re: Chakras (and qi gong)
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2019, 06:16:27 pm »
To summarize: You recommend longer practices. Currently I often practice for less than a minute at a time, and hardly ever more than 5, so that can certainly be upped.

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I'm speaking simply of compounding will, some would say building energy. I theorize that every time a connection is made with a chakra, energy must be invested into it. A beleif is like a little generator that makes the chakra function. You give it substance and form via the visualization, and then you stick a little "faith in my ability to control what I beleive to get what I want," battery in it.
A further reason for longer and slower meditation.

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Precisely. But it must be done INTUITIVELY, free of concious thought.  I did this by just doing longer sessions less often.  Perhaps two 4 hour sessions a week instead of daily 2 hour sessions.
I don't think I ever did any meditation for longer than 30-40 minutes or so.

Ah, so you're doing just fine without them.  They likely aren't necessary for you,  which is interesting.  Mantras just give thoughts substance and rhythm, but the substance is empty. This took me a long time to understand and is very subjective,  but I used to spend a long time trying to memorize new mantras to fit whatever work I was doing until I discovered a simple one that I connected with.  I figured out I could use it for anything, but ONLY in the way I heard it. I have to replay myself saying it with my eyes closed in my head as I do it in reality. Doing this to a slow rhythm establishes some kind of resonance that builds during the session. 
For rhythm I can just use my breathing rhythm.

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If you're comfortable with altering the structure of the system you're learning, it might not be a bad idea for progression's sake. You can always re visit the origional structure once it's components come better. I've done it a few times.
I'm not sure whether it actually is different, as the description in the book is really ambiguous.

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For myself is more the chakras Location in the body,  not the parts of the body itself. It helps me with the movement. I move through the body with the chakras,  like being on the magic schoolbus inside the astral body, if you get the reference. I'm not the best with words  :facepalm:
I first only focused on the location, but if I add the notion of the respective body part the sensations might be stronger.


Quote
The goal is a deep and restorative trance state. I don't know if you've ever done DMT, but it feels dreamy like that, but no visuals and the time distortion is more mild. Maybe sort of like amanita muscaria, but it doesnt hurt. It's purely mental. It's useful for the following (in my experience) :

Restorarion:

A 20 minute session (attainable with practice) in the state will feel like a 4 hour nap with no grogginess. The effect feels like a nootropics, and may be indicative of elevated serotonin.

It usually makes me sleepy (or possibly rather makes me feel more strongly how tired I was all along) but perhaps a longer practice will have the opposite effect, that would be neat.

I've never done any drugs beyond alcohol, coffein, and the like (and even that rarely), so, no experience to compare with.


Did the clairvoyance exercise mentioned above once thus far.

It begins with a general chakra meditation while staring at a candle flame. Took my time with it, going only two chakras per breath cycle and doing four or five whole rounds through the chakras, and spreading the warmth throughout my body and visualizing myself as a dragon as per the instructions.

Then one is supposed to close one's eyes and visualize the room. I had a bit trouble visualizing more than just small areas (I guess I was too stuck in my physical perceptions), so I instead visualized my workplace, and there it was much easier. It was a bit like the kind of dreaming one does while falling asleep, or dreaming in general for that matter, but with much more self-awareness/intentionality and much more slow and stable.

I did perceive differences to how things would look actually, but they didn't make sense to me (e.g. there was an energy shield around my desk and computer and I have no clue what that means). Went exploring other parts of the building I was visualizing and encountered a couple creatures (as I had been expecting I got visions from some characters of a video game I had been playing earlier - I'm used to that, it's like earworms but with pictures instead of sounds). Almost drifted off into random visions once or twice. Ended the exercise after a few minutes as I didn't see any reason to continue.

That's a short summary, quite a few more things happened, but nothing that would really tell me anything new. I think I'll practice that more often, though, to see how things develop and to get practice in getting into that state of mind.


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See, I think the point is to use the chakras to communicate with parts of your psyche that are damaged.

Ex. I am stressed and irritable. Noticing a change in my mood, I do some sensing and cleansing work, discovering a block in my throat chakra. Once removed, I feel better and go throughout my day confidently, thus healing the block.

I find a block in my sacral chakra and realize I have not been able to get myself in a sexual mindset because I have not been drinking enough water. I attribute the realization to healing the sacral chakra.

The point is that the active modality for sensing problems and for solving them is provided by the trance state. The chakras are tools to sense problems in oneself and channel solutions. Imo
I find it difficult to figure out what exactly is wrong, though, or it is something so obvious that I wouldn't have needed the chakras to know.
E.g. at the beginning of the visualization exercise I had trouble building energy in the root chakra as all my focus was in the 3rd eye region (duh) and I first needed to pull it further up and finish that "round" before I could feel any tingling at the end of the spine again. Also a while after finishing the exercise I had that issue again when I wanted to try whether chakra meditation would help against tiredness this time, but didn't succeed in moving the energy anywhere and was so tired that I took a nap. Now it's well again.
Or, other example, currently, since this morning, my lower neck, i.e. where I position the throat chakra, is hurting. Pretty sure it's because I spent so much time lying in bed in a not-exactly-optimal position. You could certainly interpret something about communication or other attributes of the throat chakra into that, but you don't need to.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 06:19:01 pm by Liu »

Olive

Re: Chakras (and qi gong)
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2019, 09:13:59 pm »
1. Mantras are supposed to have a symbolic and physiological effect on the practitioner that is beneficial to the internal practice. The symbolic value is something that builds up over time, so after a long time it becomes like a word of power that commands your psycho-physical self to prepare for a specific chakra. The raw physiological effect of the chanting is noticeable, but minimal - especially with the lower chakras. If certain words are not doing much for you, I would recommend leaving them aside until you’ve meditated on them longer or until you have more practice activating the corresponding chakra.

Some further advice: In my experience, chanting long AUMs has the strongest physiological effect by far. It creates an upward current from the heart or diaphragm to the top of the head. Make each AUM ~10 seconds long and you will feel it moving through you. Your head will practically be buzzing at the end of the Mmm. Do this several times before you begin your practice, and then switch over to fine and calm breaths so that you can focus on the internal sensations more intently.

The Gayatri mantra is good for this symbolically as well, especially the more you study ancient Vedic theology. The first line in particular - AUM Bhur Bhuvah Svaha indicates a similar upward current. In one sense it is indicating a rise from earth to the sky to the heavens, in another it means from the base of the spine to the top of the head.


2. The two routes don’t have to be mutually exclusive. I find the Qigong system of using the Dan Tians as a Qi firing system to be very effective, but I tend to still follow the route up the spine.

The progression you mentioned reminds me of a practice that a fellow sister has been working on for a while - a method of Qi control inspired and guided by the Qabalah. It’s not exactly the same, but if you can see the comparison - then imagine the path up the spine as the middle pillar of the tree of life which leads directly to the higher chakras. The zigzag way is like the serpent’s path up the tree; it is a scenic route, which takes time to visit all of the powers of life rather than just the central ones. It may not be as direct, but it could cause you to develop those powers in unforeseen ways over time.

You also mentioned that the zigzag path comes back down again. It may well help you to feel the movement of Qi as a circulation up and down, even if you are just using the spine path. I’ve had Buddhist monks recommend this to me, but YMMV.


3. First of all, it is possible to activate a higher chakra without having mastered the ones below it. However, how precarious is this situation - how stable could it be? Heheh.

I would say that you have reached a degree of mastery with a chakra when you become familiar with moving Qi to that center, and you can activate it (cause it to manifest effects or start building energy) at will. Another aspect is having control over that center, rather than allowing it to draw on you. For example the sex chakra — a certain degree of mastery would mean that you can activate your sex drive at will and cause it to become overflowing with energy; and that you can cool it down and cause it to become quiet and subtle when it is not your intention to use it. Further mastery can cause ‘powers’ of a related sort, like extraordinary sexual prowess or endurance, fluid production or tissue growth, or even affecting others with the power of your chakra. This is not however necessary by any means to start working with the next chakra.

Some of the higher chakra activations can be supported or strengthened by the mastery of lower chakras. For instance, the brain thrives off the strength of the heart and the diaphragm. So familiarity and mastery over the abilities of these lower centers can help with further development of the higher. Activation of higher centers without the support of the lower is usually unstable for two reasons. Sometimes a person cannot support a lengthy activation of the higher chakra without the discipline/experience to continue producing and exchanging Qi from those below, or else those below cannot be kept in check long enough to maintain the experience. Secondly, if a person uses a shortcut to activate a higher chakra - when that experience is over they return right back to the consciousness correlating with their normal lower chakra center, and they are unable to properly interpret or integrate the experience.

Once you are familiar with the internal dynamics of energy buildup and exchange, you can send Qi up the chakras pretty quickly, as you describe. Practices that call for 10+ minutes at each center are usually just belaboring something that should be a longer process of self-discovery; otherwise they are relying on building up excessive amounts of energy for some purpose, or producing some effect by preventing the rise of Qi beyond a certain point after building up this excess. I’ve seen some AA documents describing practices in this vein.

Best of luck! May we both attain the energy to achieve success.
    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Km Anu

Re: Chakras (and qi gong)
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2019, 01:38:21 am »
I find it difficult to figure out what exactly is wrong, though, or it is something so obvious that I wouldn't have needed the chakras to know.

Nothing is wrong.

The practice isnt the issue. The reason for my lengthy explanations is to provide more information for you to draw associations from.

It's a rule that I apply when structuring my practice. Knowledge comes from learning information that COULD be true. And then by doing something we associate what we did with what we learned, PROVING it as truth. The associations turn knowledge into understanding.

Lengthening your practice may help, but varrying it will help too. More experiences to associate with the knowledge.

The overall goal is to fit your life force into a workable structure and work it. It sounds like you're doing everything right, just keep at at  :mrgreen:

Quote
Did the clairvoyance exercise mentioned above once thus far.

It begins with a general chakra meditation while staring at a candle flame. Took my time with it, going only two chakras per breath cycle and doing four or five whole rounds through the chakras, and spreading the warmth throughout my body and visualizing myself as a dragon as per the instructions.

Then one is supposed to close one's eyes and visualize the room. I had a bit trouble visualizing more than just small areas (I guess I was too stuck in my physical perceptions), so I instead visualized my workplace, and there it was much easier. It was a bit like the kind of dreaming one does while falling asleep, or dreaming in general for that matter, but with much more self-awareness/intentionality and much more slow and stable.

I did perceive differences to how things would look actually, but they didn't make sense to me (e.g. there was an energy shield around my desk and computer and I have no clue what that means). Went exploring other parts of the building I was visualizing and encountered a couple creatures (as I had been expecting I got visions from some characters of a video game I had been playing earlier - I'm used to that, it's like earworms but with pictures instead of sounds). Almost drifted off into random visions once or twice. Ended the exercise after a few minutes as I didn't see any reason to continue.

That's a short summary, quite a few more things happened, but nothing that would really tell me anything new. I think I'll practice that more often, though, to see how things develop and to get practice in getting into that state of mind.

Trakata is my comparative experience. I gaze at the flame until it feels right  to close my eyes and imagine it still there, then the room, but the difference is that I pan out and imagine myself. But it seems the concepts are the same. The benifit I glean from this practice is application of Intuition manifested as imagination onto a replicated physical environment. The practitioner gains whatever they need in this space presented in a way that may associate the concept with whatever physical space is used.

It would be a great tool for building mental landscapes.

Km Anu

Re: Chakras (and qi gong)
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2019, 01:47:02 am »
Some further advice: In my experience, chanting long AUMs has the strongest physiological effect by far. It creates an upward current from the heart or diaphragm to the top of the head. Make each AUM ~10 seconds long and you will feel it moving through you. Your head will practically be buzzing at the end of the Mmm. Do this several times before you begin your practice, and then switch over to fine and calm breaths so that you can focus on the internal sensations more intently.

The Gayatri mantra is good for this symbolically as well, especially the more you study ancient Vedic theology. The first line in particular - AUM Bhur Bhuvah Svaha indicates a similar upward current. In one sense it is indicating a rise from earth to the sky to the heavens, in another it means from the base of the spine to the top of the head.



To supplement:

I seccond wholeheartedly this explanation, the patterns in the vibration are increases in manifestation of energy. I do the same with THE SAME MANTRA, cycling through as I intone. In its entirety the mantra starts as a 20 second cycle. I repeat this over and over, swaying when the time is right. The rate intuitive increases exiting that well in the heart and moving up, out through the throat where it is perceived by the ear and focus is moved to perceptual thought in the 3rd eye chakra, then compounds with the goal of my causal force through the crown chakra. This awareness then slowly trickles down through the body as the frequency is increased. To draw an analogy, the higher chakras are like cranking up a faucet. The more energy comes out, the faster the lower chakras fill, like a basin filling with water.

To add, I use a growling intonation to increase that focus on building breath in the chest and projecting in the throat. If I knew how to send a voice message, I would show you :/ it's been VERY benificial in my practice thus far.

Liu

Re: Chakras (and qi gong)
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2019, 12:31:11 am »
Some further advice: In my experience, chanting long AUMs has the strongest physiological effect by far. It creates an upward current from the heart or diaphragm to the top of the head. Make each AUM ~10 seconds long and you will feel it moving through you. Your head will practically be buzzing at the end of the Mmm. Do this several times before you begin your practice, and then switch over to fine and calm breaths so that you can focus on the internal sensations more intently.
I guess I could try that.

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The Gayatri mantra is good for this symbolically as well, especially the more you study ancient Vedic theology. The first line in particular - AUM Bhur Bhuvah Svaha indicates a similar upward current. In one sense it is indicating a rise from earth to the sky to the heavens, in another it means from the base of the spine to the top of the head.
Not really into Vedic theology. The few Vedic texts I know (from philological/linguistic courses) didn't seem that enticing in content.

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2. The two routes don’t have to be mutually exclusive. I find the Qigong system of using the Dan Tians as a Qi firing system to be very effective, but I tend to still follow the route up the spine.
Ah good to have some input from someone more experienced with qigong :)

Quote
The progression you mentioned reminds me of a practice that a fellow sister has been working on for a while - a method of Qi control inspired and guided by the Qabalah. It’s not exactly the same, but if you can see the comparison - then imagine the path up the spine as the middle pillar of the tree of life which leads directly to the higher chakras. The zigzag way is like the serpent’s path up the tree; it is a scenic route, which takes time to visit all of the powers of life rather than just the central ones. It may not be as direct, but it could cause you to develop those powers in unforeseen ways over time.
That serpent symbolism on going zigzag wasn't lost on me ;) And exploring rather than going directly to the goal sounds quite appealing.
Also the way along the spine has a strange curvy part, though, when one moves to the front to go to ajna and then back again to move to the crown.

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You also mentioned that the zigzag path comes back down again. It may well help you to feel the movement of Qi as a circulation up and down, even if you are just using the spine path. I’ve had Buddhist monks recommend this to me, but YMMV.
That going back down again is actually something I have from Mason's book, she stresses it a lot. The argument basically is that it wouldn't be about getting to some end goal of enlightenment, but to take the energy/insight back again from there into life.
I rather see the practical aspect: If I just stop once I reach the top the first time, I'm usually done in less than a minute, possibly less than 10 seconds.
Going the same way back down, though? Haven't really tried that. When I get spontaneous energy feelings along the spine they usually move downwards, but when I try it intentionally, upwards seems the default direction. Haven't really experimented much with it, something I could try out.

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3. First of all, it is possible to activate a higher chakra without having mastered the ones below it. However, how precarious is this situation - how stable could it be? Heheh.

I would say that you have reached a degree of mastery with a chakra when you become familiar with moving Qi to that center, and you can activate it (cause it to manifest effects or start building energy) at will. Another aspect is having control over that center, rather than allowing it to draw on you. For example the sex chakra — a certain degree of mastery would mean that you can activate your sex drive at will and cause it to become overflowing with energy; and that you can cool it down and cause it to become quiet and subtle when it is not your intention to use it. Further mastery can cause ‘powers’ of a related sort, like extraordinary sexual prowess or endurance, fluid production or tissue growth, or even affecting others with the power of your chakra. This is not however necessary by any means to start working with the next chakra.
I already use other methods for controlling my sex drive. And getting aroused from focusing on that chakra feels a bit different from getting aroused by other mental means (like fantasizing, self-hypnosis,...).
I don't have much experience with trying to lessen arousal. I have practice with not acting on it, but that seems like something quite different. Sure, high levels of arousal can also interfere with concentration, but that's rarely an issue (and when it is it usually shifts my priorities so much that I don't even think of trying to get rid of it).

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Best of luck! May we both attain the energy to achieve success.
Thanks!

Nothing is wrong.

The practice isnt the issue. The reason for my lengthy explanations is to provide more information for you to draw associations from.

It's a rule that I apply when structuring my practice. Knowledge comes from learning information that COULD be true. And then by doing something we associate what we did with what we learned, PROVING it as truth. The associations turn knowledge into understanding.
A good argument both for divinatory practices, and for reading a lot.


Quote
Lengthening your practice may help, but varrying it will help too. More experiences to associate with the knowledge.

The overall goal is to fit your life force into a workable structure and work it. It sounds like you're doing everything right, just keep at at  :mrgreen:
That's good to hear.
Without a direct teacher it's difficult to figure out whether one is on the right track, so some feedback is very appreciated.

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Trakata is my comparative experience. I gaze at the flame until it feels right  to close my eyes and imagine it still there, then the room, but the difference is that I pan out and imagine myself. But it seems the concepts are the same. The benifit I glean from this practice is application of Intuition manifested as imagination onto a replicated physical environment. The practitioner gains whatever they need in this space presented in a way that may associate the concept with whatever physical space is used.
Yes, sounds similar.
The difficulty is in interpreting it, though.

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It would be a great tool for building mental landscapes.
At least for gaining practice at visualization, which is needed for that. At least by my little experience, that clairvoyance exercise causes a much more spontaneous vision than what I would think of in regards to building mental landscapes.