Author Topic: 7th Satanic Statement  (Read 492 times)

Hapu

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7th Satanic Statement
« on: September 22, 2019, 02:16:28 pm »
"Just another animal..."

I enjoyed this succinct article:
https://askabiologist.asu.edu/questions/human-animal-differences

Thus the differences between humans and other animals are of degree, not kind.

I consider the 7th Satanic Statement to be the axis around which all the others turn. Once you accept the "just another animal" proposition, the other eight propositions become self-evident, and in fact the 9th Satanic Statement ("best friend the Church has ever had") becomes transparently an understatement, and we realize the Church is in fact the footstool of Satan, kept clean and tidy by the ministrations of Mammon. ("Pass the collection plate.")

If you happen to be someone who expects to continue in some way after death, the 7th Satanic Statement does not necessarily contradict your expectation. It merely requires, out of logical consistency, that whatever you expect for yourself, you may also expect for the beasts of field and stream. And if you think you will only continue if you perform some requisite works, you may want to ponder the true nature of these works, and whether they differ only in degree from what is possible for rabbit, goldfish, and frog.

The other options are:
1. No living thing continues after death.
2. Only humans have the ability to continue after death, which means the 7th Satanic Statement is false.




« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 02:21:43 pm by Hapu »
Slither whither thou wouldst.

IALPRT

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Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2019, 05:35:18 pm »
In addition to what you've mentioned, which is spot-on, the actual weight and profundity of this statement becomes even starker with further study of what this is a reaction to.

That is: unique to the Abrahamic religions is the assertion that the force(s) that sustain existence (god) cares deeply for the human race specifically. That the human race occupies a privileged position in the universe and has a unique relationship with god. That they are stewards of creation.

This very premise is why early Christian apologists such as Justin Martyr specifically cites the worship of roman gods, fates, powers, necessity, impersonal personifications of natural forces, and so-on as daimon-worship, idolatry, or paganism: because these beliefs do not regard man as significant - they serve only to bind him to his fate and hold him in thrall to his lot in life and place in the universe - as any other animal for whom the universe has no special purpose or concern.

The seventh satanic statement is an affirmation of this, along with the near-endless litany of grim implications that follow.



« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 05:51:40 pm by IALPRT »

Hapu

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Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2019, 04:05:15 pm »
"No higher nature." That's what "just another animal" means. No Buddha Nature. No Christ Consciousness.

It may mean "no soul" unless we accept the existence of souls in chickens, lobsters, and crocodiles.

I may write an aria, but that differs in degree, not kind, from the nightingale's woodland serenade. I may build a chapel, but that differs in degree, not kind, from the beaver's mud-packed dam. I may paint a portrait, but that differs in degree, not kind, from what zoo animals are known to be able to do with paint brushes and paints.

No higher nature means no inner saint or angel inspiring me to celestial heights of virtue.

Just another animal. No higher nature. Not better than a muskrat, except in degree.
 
But what of a lower nature? Are humans more evil than bats, piranhas, or cobras?

I find it easy to believe in a lower nature. The things we will do to members of our own species are unheard of in the wild. We're monsters, fiends, ghouls.

Lucifer Nature. I know most (maybe all) Luciferians intrepret Lucifer in Appolonian terms. I don't. I interpret him in Dionysian terms, and a decidedly dark Dionysus at that. To me, Son of Sam tapped into his Lucifer Nature.

Do chipmunks, crabs, and iguanas have Lucifer Nature?



 


Slither whither thou wouldst.

Km Anu

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Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2019, 04:09:10 pm »
Again, my cat might.

Kapalika

Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2019, 06:44:25 am »
"No higher nature." That's what "just another animal" means. No Buddha Nature. No Christ Consciousness.

It may mean "no soul" unless we accept the existence of souls in chickens, lobsters, and crocodiles.

Buddhism has no souls, rather the doctrine of anatta ("not self", which at least means the agnostic approach to the existence of souls, if not the outright skepticism and/or nonbelief of them).

In Buddhism, Buddha nature isn't unique to humans, that same Buddha-ness is shared by other animals as well (at least anything that is conscious, as far as I am aware).

There in is actually part of it's justification some sects use for the incorporation of carnal, sexual, or taboo practices within Buddhism. According to them, since it's also part of the Buddha nature, it can be used as a path towards enlightenment.

From my (and many here's) perspectives we would/could say that that type of Buddhist practice and belief is Left Hand Path. Indeed, the Vamachari (LHP) Tantrics of Hinduism had a lot of cross-influence with the Tantric Buddhists. Meditation in Charnel grounds (for Tibet and Nepal, more cremation grounds to the South), cannibalism, partaking in wine, sexual meditation rituals and asceticism were practiced by both.

Despite all that, Buddhism doesn't take into consideration the RHP/LHP division that ancient Hinduism or the modern LHP has, and Buddhism as a whole was considered Nastika by detractors anyways because of it's atheism.

Because of all that, I find that example really misplaced, particularly with the "Christ nature" right beside it.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 06:47:40 am by Kapalika »
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Etu Malku

Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2019, 03:08:23 pm »
"No higher nature." That's what "just another animal" means. No Buddha Nature. No Christ Consciousness.

It may mean "no soul" unless we accept the existence of souls in chickens, lobsters, and crocodiles.

Buddhism has no souls, rather the doctrine of anatta ("not self", which at least means the agnostic approach to the existence of souls, if not the outright skepticism and/or nonbelief of them).

In Buddhism, Buddha nature isn't unique to humans, that same Buddha-ness is shared by other animals as well (at least anything that is conscious, as far as I am aware).

There in is actually part of it's justification some sects use for the incorporation of carnal, sexual, or taboo practices within Buddhism. According to them, since it's also part of the Buddha nature, it can be used as a path towards enlightenment.

From my (and many here's) perspectives we would/could say that that type of Buddhist practice and belief is Left Hand Path. Indeed, the Vamachari (LHP) Tantrics of Hinduism had a lot of cross-influence with the Tantric Buddhists. Meditation in Charnel grounds (for Tibet and Nepal, more cremation grounds to the South), cannibalism, partaking in wine, sexual meditation rituals and asceticism were practiced by both.

Despite all that, Buddhism doesn't take into consideration the RHP/LHP division that ancient Hinduism or the modern LHP has, and Buddhism as a whole was considered Nastika by detractors anyways because of it's atheism.

Because of all that, I find that example really misplaced, particularly with the "Christ nature" right beside it.
"modern LHP" . . . would you define this for me?
IAMTHATIAMNOT

Hapu

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Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2019, 09:46:50 pm »
Buddhism has no souls, rather the doctrine of anatta ("not self", which at least means the agnostic approach to the existence of souls, if not the outright skepticism and/or nonbelief of them).

Yet Buddhism incorporates a belief in reincarnation. Seems dissonant to me.

In Buddhism, Buddha nature isn't unique to humans, that same Buddha-ness is shared by other animals as well (at least anything that is conscious, as far as I am aware).

Buddha nature is understood as the potential for enlightenment, yet for a beast of the field to achieve enlightenment it must first, as far as I can tell, incarnate as a human. I've never heard of anyone claiming to meet an enlightened squirrel. Dissonant.

There in is actually part of it's justification some sects use for the incorporation of carnal, sexual, or taboo practices within Buddhism. According to them, since it's also part of the Buddha nature, it can be used as a path towards enlightenment. From my (and many here's) perspectives we would/could say that that type of Buddhist practice and belief is Left Hand Path.

Vamachara literally translates as "left-handed attainment" yet I perceive a disconnect between Vamachara and what the Left Hand Path in European cultures has evolved into, as I don't think satori or Nirvana represent what many Left Hand practitioners in European cultures are striving for.

Indeed, the Vamachari (LHP) Tantrics of Hinduism had a lot of cross-influence with the Tantric Buddhists. Meditation in Charnel grounds (for Tibet and Nepal, more cremation grounds to the South), cannibalism, partaking in wine, sexual meditation rituals and asceticism were practiced by both.

Yes.

Despite all that, Buddhism doesn't take into consideration the RHP/LHP division that ancient Hinduism or the modern LHP has, and Buddhism as a whole was considered Nastika by detractors anyways because of it's atheism.

Here you're delving deeper into the history of Buddhism then I have.

Quote
Because of all that, I find that example really misplaced, particularly with the "Christ nature" right beside it.

No Christ consciousness in possums. No enlightenment in possums. Seems equivalent to me. To say that X has the potential for Y should imply that X can achieve Y, yet in the case of enlightenment, such does not appear to be the case. Dissonant.

By the way, I don't believe anyone has ever achieved enlightenment. I think it's a fairy tale.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 10:04:22 pm by Hapu »
Slither whither thou wouldst.

Kapalika

Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2019, 05:48:37 am »
"modern LHP" . . . would you define this for me?

I'd probably put it as any form of the Left Hand Path that developed or started to develop in the last couple of hundred years about. There isn't any hard lines though, and there is an argument to be made about the amount of cross bleed.

In other words.. LHP that developed modernly, in the modern era (including the Information era too if we don't consider today to be "modern").

Sometimes things are exactly what it says on the tin.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 06:15:05 am by Kapalika »
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My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Kapalika

Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2019, 06:14:01 am »
Yet Buddhism incorporates a belief in reincarnation. Seems dissonant to me.

Ya, but those are "streams of consciousness" they are not egoistic souls and don't carry identity between lives, and depending on what kind of Buddhism we are talking about there may be no belief in reincarnation in the first place.

Quote
Buddha nature is understood as the potential for enlightenment, yet for a beast of the field to achieve enlightenment it must first, as far as I can tell, incarnate as a human. I've never heard of anyone claiming to meet an enlightened squirrel. Dissonant.

That isn't' what Buddha nature is (although the meaning can vary), and Bhudda nature is inherent in all sentient beings. Christ conciousness is only in those who are converted to Christanity. That's the big difference. Plus Buddhism is at least agnostic if not non-theistic, Christianity is inherently theistic.

Also to play devil's advocate based on what I do know of Buddhism, who are you to say that the beast isn't already enlightened? Perhaps people don't claim squirrels are enlightened because of their own ego. Perhaps the Squirrel just is, and exists as it should. Elephants can mourn and recognize death: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku_GUNzXoeQ and we keep finding out that dolphins are more intelligent than we previously thought. Perhaps some animals can ponder the same kinds of things, and not be limited by our type of language based thought.

Also, Buddhism doesn't put out of the question that there could be other beings out there, who themselves might be just as if not more easily capable of enlightenment. Who's ever said that something *has* to reincarnate to a human to become enlightened?

Quote
Vamachara literally translates as "left-handed attainment" yet I perceive a disconnect between Vamachara and what the Left Hand Path in European cultures has evolved into, as I don't think satori or Nirvana represent what many Left Hand practitioners in European cultures are striving for.

Well again Buddhism doesn't subscribe to the RHP/LHP dichotomy, but I will say that many European based LHP systems rely at least in part on the original tantra in terms of form.

Like music, religion is more influenced by it's peers than by it's own history. I would say that it is the difference of time that makes them more distinct. I don't think there is a disconnect but I've also studied the relationship of the two for most of my practice this last decade or so.

Quote
Yes.

Well glad we agree on something.

Quote
No Christ consciousness in possums. No enlightenment in possums. Seems equivalent to me. To say that X has the potential for Y should imply that X can achieve Y, yet in the case of enlightenment, such does not appear to be the case. Dissonant.

Not really, for the reasons I said above. Also, one is theistic (Christianity) the other is agnostic if not atheistic (Buddhism). Buddha nature IS in possums since they are SENTIENT, Christ consciousness is only in born again Christians (ie those who convert).

Quote
By the way, I don't believe anyone has ever achieved enlightenment. I think it's a fairy tale.

Dissonant. This dissonance is preferable.
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Hapu

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Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2019, 10:49:04 am »
Yet Buddhism incorporates a belief in reincarnation. Seems dissonant to me.

Ya, but those are "streams of consciousness" they are not egoistic souls and don't carry identity between lives, and depending on what kind of Buddhism we are talking about there may be no belief in reincarnation in the first place.

Streams of consciousnes... that's especially interesting to me, as I occasionally try to imagine death, and sometimes when I do, I get this picture in my head of the dying brain sending out an emergency transmission of all the information it's accumulated throughout the lifetime. Assuming this isn't nuts, it could correspond with the experience of seeing our lives pass before our eyes.

Quote
Buddha nature is understood as the potential for enlightenment, yet for a beast of the field to achieve enlightenment it must first, as far as I can tell, incarnate as a human. I've never heard of anyone claiming to meet an enlightened squirrel. Dissonant.

That isn't' what Buddha nature is (although the meaning can vary)

What then do you think it is? I found "potential for enlightenment" at multiple places but maybe they're all parroting the same error.

...and Bhudda nature is inherent in all sentient beings. Christ conciousness is only in those who are converted to Christanity. That's the big difference.

I'll have to wait for you to describe your thoughts on what Buddha nature actually is. Based on my current understanding, what matters about Buddha nature is the potential for enlightenment, but you can't actually achieve enlightenment without the Four Noble Truths (which seem equivalent to Christian faith, just more practical) and the Noble Eightfold Path (which seems equivalent to the Christian commandments, just, again, more practical). Faith and works, just like Christians.

Plus Buddhism is at least agnostic if not non-theistic, Christianity is inherently theistic.

True but, for me, trivial. Faith and works without deity are still faith and works. Incidentally I find a faith and works mentality in some modern LH paths. We will only survive death if we acknowledge the truth of X and then perform rituals Y and Z.

Also to play devil's advocate based on what I do know of Buddhism...

You seem to know more than I do, which I why I value this conversation.

...who are you to say that the beast isn't already enlightened?

I go further than that. I consider all enlightenment, regardless of the practitioner's species, as straight up make-believe. A con, a swindle. I've never heard of a single Hindu or Buddhist who seemed to operate on a different plane from the rest of us. Sure, some of them talk about cool things like ahimsa, but talk is cheap. I demand indisputable evidence of a life lived on a different plane of awareness - and that doesn't just mean philanthropy, because lots of rich people engage in that, and as far as I can tell, none of them are enlightened.

Perhaps people don't claim squirrels are enlightened because of their own ego. Perhaps the Squirrel just is, and exists as it should. Elephants can mourn and recognize death: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku_GUNzXoeQ and we keep finding out that dolphins are more intelligent than we previously thought. Perhaps some animals can ponder the same kinds of things, and not be limited by our type of language based thought.

I'll wait for some evidence. But I'll say this much: if it turns out a kangaroo really can achieve satori or Nirvana and can be demonstrated to have done so, then I will immediately agree that Buddha nature belongs firmly under the umbrella of the 7th Satanic Statement, and I will do it gleefully, because I still say humans can't actually achieve those things. Show me a world where kangaroos can and humans can't and I will laugh my ass off with glee.

Also, Buddhism doesn't put out of the question that there could be other beings out there, who themselves might be just as if not more easily capable of enlightenment. Who's ever said that something *has* to reincarnate to a human to become enlightened?

It's the logical conclusion of no fruit bat every achieving enlightenment. They must have to incarnate as a human to do it. Of course, if humans can't do it either, then the whole thing is just a sham, which is what I strongly expect to be true.

Quote
Vamachara literally translates as "left-handed attainment" yet I perceive a disconnect between Vamachara and what the Left Hand Path in European cultures has evolved into, as I don't think satori or Nirvana represent what many Left Hand practitioners in European cultures are striving for.

Well again Buddhism doesn't subscribe to the RHP/LHP dichotomy, but I will say that many European based LHP systems rely at least in part on the original tantra in terms of form.

Like music, religion is more influenced by it's peers than by it's own history. I would say that it is the difference of time that makes them more distinct. I don't think there is a disconnect but I've also studied
the relationship of the two for most of my practice this last decade or so.

Many modern LH practitioners want power. How does power fit in with satori or Nirvana?

« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 11:07:56 am by Hapu »
Slither whither thou wouldst.

Williams1001

Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2019, 03:55:12 am »
"Just another animal..."

I enjoyed this succinct article:
https://askabiologist.asu.edu/questions/human-animal-differences

Thus the differences between humans and other animals are of degree, not kind.

if humans and animals are essentially the same just different in degree, then perhaps both human and animal consciousnesses are the same and differing only in degree. if all consciousnesses are the same, then is individuality at the consciousness level preserved or would it be an illusion? for example, if consciousness can continue after death, then would each consciousness that departed the body remain individually distinct?


The other options are:
1. No living thing continues after death.
2. Only humans have the ability to continue after death, which means the 7th Satanic Statement is false.

whether or not something survives after death would be heavily influenced by the problems relating to the mind and body interaction. i found comparing some of the points made by this article to this topic and the satanic statements to be intriguing.

http://steve-patterson.com/mind-body-dualism-solving-problem-interaction/



If you happen to be someone who expects to continue in some way after death, the 7th Satanic Statement does not necessarily contradict your expectation. It merely requires, out of logical consistency, that whatever you expect for yourself, you may also expect for the beasts of field and stream. And if you think you will only continue if you perform some requisite works, you may want to ponder the true nature of these works, and whether they differ only in degree from what is possible for rabbit, goldfish, and frog.

this is the reason why i like the idea of animism, which is the belief that everything posses a spirit or higher spiritual significance. although, if everything has a spirit, then our very own bodies would have millions of spirits since each cell would have a spirit, the organelles would have their own spirits, the atoms that make up the organelles would have a spirit and the electrons and the protons and neutrons would also have spirits, so there would be spirits within spirits within spirits within spirits. this seems kind of dubious, so i mainly focus on the mind-body interaction. if there is life after death, i think performing requisite works does not reward you with life after death and that you would continue regardless of what you do because i like to think of the spiritual realm to be independent of the physical. thus, i see no real purpose for enlightenment other than to expand one's worldview which can be accomplished without enlightenment.   

Liu

Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2019, 05:22:08 pm »
I enjoyed this succinct article:
https://askabiologist.asu.edu/questions/human-animal-differences
That reminds me of some fourfold ontology I posited here some months ago based on Frege's philosophy of three worlds.

It contained:
  • laws of logic (also as a basis of laws of physics)
  • objective (or intersubjective?) universe
  • mind (i.e. objects of the mind)
  • consciousness/subjectiveness/the observer
with some of these influencing some others of these.

I kinda dropped that when I couldn't find the proper border between mind and consciousness, though. Also didn't get that deep into the question of the interaction.

Williams1001

Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2019, 06:44:34 pm »

That reminds me of some fourfold ontology I posited here some months ago based on Frege's philosophy of three worlds.

do you mind telling me where i can find this?




Hapu

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Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2019, 10:08:28 pm »
if humans and animals are essentially the same just different in degree, then perhaps both human and animal consciousnesses are the same and differing only in degree.

That's what I presume to be true. My cat seems like a person to me in every respect but language. Also she's too smart to get trapped in silly games like paying rent.

if all consciousnesses are the same, then is individuality at the consciousness level preserved or would it be an illusion? for example, if consciousness can continue after death, then would each consciousness that departed the body remain individually distinct?

I obviously don't know the answer but my current viewpoint is that the mind dies but the spirit continues. Minds are individual but spirit seems to defy such categories.

whether or not something survives after death would be heavily influenced by the problems relating to the mind and body interaction. i found comparing some of the points made by this article to this topic and the satanic statements to be intriguing.

http://steve-patterson.com/mind-body-dualism-solving-problem-interaction/

Hell's Bells! That may well be the most brilliant essay I've ever read!

this is the reason why i like the idea of animism, which is the belief that everything possesses a spirit or higher spiritual significance.

Animism works if we restrict ourselves to spirits, not minds. I don't think anyone sensible thinks a rock has a mind. But it may have (or partake in) some sort of spirit. The spirit of place, perhaps.

although, if everything has a spirit, then our very own bodies would have millions of spirits since each cell would have a spirit, the organelles would have their own spirits, the atoms that make up the organelles would have a spirit and the electrons and the protons and neutrons would also have spirits, so there would be spirits within spirits within spirits within spirits.

Spirit of place may solve that objection. Thinking in terms of places rather than things. The body may be thought of as a place.

this seems kind of dubious, so i mainly focus on the mind-body interaction. if there is life after death, i think performing requisite works does not reward you with life after death and that you would continue regardless of what you do because i like to think of the spiritual realm to be independent of the physical.

I can't buy into the notion that anything I do is so powerful that it can grant permanence to something that otherwise would be temporary. We'd be talking about an omnipotence-level miracle.

However, it may be the case that what I do in life can to some extent determine the kind of post-death experience I have.

thus, i see no real purpose for enlightenment other than to expand one's worldview which can be accomplished without enlightenment.

As I've said elsewhere, I consider enlightenment to be a sham. I don't believe in it at all. I think gurus are con artists.
Slither whither thou wouldst.

Williams1001

Re: 7th Satanic Statement
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2019, 11:19:03 pm »

I obviously don't know the answer but my current viewpoint is that the mind dies but the spirit continues. Minds are individual but spirit seems to defy such categories.

i think my post on indra's net may be thought provoking.


Hell's Bells! That may well be the most brilliant essay I've ever read!

if you like that essay, you should definitely read his other essays.


Animism works if we restrict ourselves to spirits, not minds. I don't think anyone sensible thinks a rock has a mind. But it may have (or partake in) some sort of spirit. The spirit of place, perhaps.

Spirit of place may solve that objection. Thinking in terms of places rather than things. The body may be thought of as a place.

interesting, maybe if spirit instead belongs to either the individual parts or the whole, but not both then animism may be a little more convincing. if spirit belongs to the individual, then electrons protons and neutrons can have spirits whereas atoms can't since an atom is a whole. or if spirit belongs to the whole and not the individual, then atoms can have a spirit, but not protons neutrons, or electrons, spirit may then be an emergent property. this seems better, but as for spirit of place, maybe we can discuss this further.

I can't buy into the notion that anything I do is so powerful that it can grant permanence to something that otherwise would be temporary. We'd be talking about an omnipotence-level miracle.

However, it may be the case that what I do in life can to some extent determine the kind of post-death experience I have.

the only way i think a physical action can affect one's spiritual existence is if the person does something that is later regretted. then, as a spirit or subconsciousness, the person's depressed because what was done can't be undone. other than that, there nothing that can be done to affect one's spiritual existence.

As I've said elsewhere, I consider enlightenment to be a sham. I don't believe in it at all. I think gurus are con artists.

this is why i read philosophy instead of new age nonsense. even occult knowledge is a type of philosophical knowledge. however, i feel like we are digressing from the main topic of this thread and the Amaymon thread. what do you say about moving these recent posts and the recent posts on the Amaymon thread to a new topic?