Author Topic: Some CoS inside information  (Read 1154 times)

Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2019, 05:57:18 pm »
It doesn't feel like an accomodation to me, and it does not only apply to transpeople, that's why I didn't mention it.


That things can equally be said of an unrelated subject does nothing to negate what is said about the subject in focus.
Well you wrote that only transpeople would insist on that kind of special consideration and accommodations, that's what I was arguing against.

Quote
If I were in the least concerned with what it feels like to you I would have stated:
That's a weird leap that only liu with her perennial insistence for special consideration and accommodations would make.
How considerate of you...

Quote
Quote
Well if you consider it a good idea to hold a bag of spiders in front of someone with arachnophobia...
Nonsense. How often am I - or anyone - holding a bag of spiders? How often do I use pronouns (FFS)? It's not an accommodation to ask someone not to do something they would never a million years be inclined to do in the first place.
I admit that it wasn't a perfect example, I rather meant it as a metaphor than as a comparison.
But how much effort does it however need to use the pronouns a person either asks for or those of the gender that the person obviously tries to pass as.
Seems to be less than intentionally using different pronouns and dealing with the consequences.

IALPRT

  • Guest
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2019, 06:04:51 pm »
I see figures of speech and poetic license seem to evade you, and to be honest, it's actually draining to have to spell these things out. People find this tedious.

When I say "only a transgender with their perennial insistence for special consideration and accommodations would make."

It's flippant. Tongue-in-cheek. Slight hyperbole for effect. These are perfectly common literary devices. We're not automatons, here... well at least I don't think we are.

Now, I mean not to be inflammatory, this is a legitimate question just so I know the size-of what it is I'm replying to here: are you perchance somewhere on the autism spectrum?

Quote
But how much effort does it however need to use the pronouns a person either asks for or those of the gender that the person obviously tries to pass as.
It doesn't matter how much effort it takes. It's impelled speech. Why is that so hard to wrap your tragically self-absorbed heads around?  I'm not going to be roped-in to arguing something as subjective as to "how hard it is to monitor pronoun usage", because that's patently absurd and totally beside the point. A red herring at best. We're not going down that road.
This argument is of the same form as "well what's it to you if we invade your privacy if you have nothing to hide". It doesn't matter if I have nothing to hide, and it doesn't matter how much effort it takes. My answer is no because no. I'm not going to do it. Kick. Rocks.

In fact, even if I were inclined to accommodate this request, the instant one insists and makes a demand that I do so is the instant I don't (as the saying goes) "because fuck you is why".
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 06:21:11 pm by IALPRT »

Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2019, 06:30:20 pm »
I see figures of speech and poetic license seem to evade you, and to be honest, it's actually draining to have to spell these things out. People find this tedious.

When I say "only a transgender with their perennial insistence for special consideration and accommodations would make."

It's flippant. Tongue-in-cheek. Slight hyperbole for effect. These are perfectly common literary devices. We're not automatons, here... well at least I don't think we are.

Now, I mean not to be inflammatory, this is a legitimate question just so I know the size-of what it is I'm replying to here: are you perchance somewhere on the autism spectrum?

Never been officially diagnosed (even though I brought it up once to the therapist I was seeing due to being trans), but I do suspect so.
You are only the 2nd person in my life who asked me that question, though (the other one was a classmate ~15 years ago).

I tend to take written things literally in forums on philosophical discussions and similar like this forum here, as I assume that people put some thought into what they write.
If I would have phrased things like you had, I would have meant them the way I interpreted yours.

Quote
It doesn't matter how much effort it takes. Why is that so hard to wrap your tragically self-absorbed heads around? It's impelled speech.
This argument is of the same form as "well what's it to you if we invade your privacy if you have nothing to hide". It doesn't matter if I have nothing to hide, and it doesn't matter how much effort it takes. My answer is no because no. I'm not going to do it. Kick. Rocks.

In fact, even if I were inclined to accommodate this demand, the instant one insists that I do so is the instant I don't because fuck you is why.
I can actually relate to that. Wouldn't seem the wisest decision to me, so I wouldn't do that.
And I don't see much sense in intentionally hurting someone else's feelings for the heck of it.
Also it would imply to me that I would consider gender-transitioning to be something one should not do, which I obviously don't, so it would be hypocritical if I'd act like that.
If you can justify to yourself disrespecting someone's gender identity but respecting their gender-related life decisions, then go for it.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 06:34:53 pm by Liu »

IALPRT

  • Guest
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2019, 06:54:06 pm »
If you can justify to yourself disrespecting someone's gender identity but respecting their gender-related life decisions, then go for it.

That's easy - I don't even respect them on the basis of their gender-related life decisions. My respect for someone is not at all contingent on one's self-perceived sex or gender. The thought that it should be is just alien to my way of thinking. I moreover think gender as anything other than a synonym for physiological sex is an absurd post-modernist construct, and that there could be nothing more vapid than taking pride in something as utterly meaningless, and unimportant as one's sexual orientation.

Because sue me, I respect people on the basis of things that actually matter: the content of their character and if that makes me a hate-filled bigot, OFW.

And you really have to ask yourself: Is it any less "wrong" that I am presumed an intolerant bigot for merely choosing to call things what they are, while holding human beings accountable to measures of respect that require actual effort beyond mere identification? It's plain to me who really should be taking offense, here. And no doubt they rightly would were it not that crying victim is abhorrent to anyone who knows the meaning of self-respect.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 07:14:21 pm by IALPRT »

Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2019, 07:19:10 pm »
If you can justify to yourself disrespecting someone's gender identity but respecting their gender-related life decisions, then go for it.

That's easy - I don't even respect them on the basis of their gender-related life decisions. My respect for someone is not at all contingent on one's self-perceived sex or gender. The thought that it should be is just alien to my way of thinking. I moreover think gender as anything other than a synonym for physiological sex is an absurd post-modernist construct, and that there could be nothing more vapid than taking pride in something as utterly meaningless, and unimportant as one's sexual orientation.

Because sue me, I respect people on the basis of things that actually matter: the content of their character and if that makes me a hate-filled bigot, OFW.

Just for your info: There are/were cultures with up to 5 different genders. So, doesn't seem that post-modernist to me.

But believe what you will.

I also find "pride", as in "gay pride" etc., quite a misnomer.

I was using "respecting" in the sense of "considering valid", "considering not batshit insane".
And I wouldn't know how to derive a person's character from their behavior regarding pronouns alone, too many unknown variables.

Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2019, 07:49:28 pm »
And you really have to ask yourself: Is it any less "wrong" that I am presumed an intolerant bigot for merely choosing to call things what they are, while holding human beings accountable to measures of respect that require actual effort beyond mere identification? It's plain to me who really should be taking offense, here. And no doubt they rightly would were it not that crying victim is abhorrent to anyone who knows the meaning of self-respect.
It's a different way of measuring things. I normally treat pretty much everyone with respect, out of strategy, and it would mean going very much out of my way to disrespecting someone intentionally in that fashion. You know that the person in question doesn't consider themself a "he" or whatever, and that the person in question by that does not mean that they don't have a male body but that they don't see themself belonging to the social group of people normally referred to with "he". Therefore, you are not merely doing identification by using whichever pronoun you choose to use but you are claiming they would belong to a given social group that they don't identify with.
And since the person thus referred to also knows that, it is understandable that they react offended.
Uninentional misgendering can happen, and overreacting about that is surely a sign of an underlying psychological issue (and be it just stress), but if it's done intentionally it's hard to not consider it a personal attack.

IALPRT

  • Guest
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2019, 08:23:10 pm »

Just for your info: There are/were cultures with up to 5 different genders. So, doesn't seem that post-modernist to me.


What they have are specific words for: dude-who-acts-like a woman, woman-who-acts-like-a-dude, dude-who-acts-like-a-dude, woman-who-acts-like-a-woman, and hermaphrodite.

Conversely in the Philippines all they have by way of pronouns is "siya". If it's a man it's "siya" if it's a female, it's also "siya". What does that say of their recognition of genders? Nothing at all, and neither does that.

Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2019, 08:28:51 pm »

Just for your info: There are/were cultures with up to 5 different genders. So, doesn't seem that post-modernist to me.


What they have are specific words for: dude-who-acts-like a woman, woman-who-acts-like-a-dude, dude-who-acts-like-a-dude, woman-who-acts-like-a-woman, and hermaphrodite.
From what I recall the last category wasn't hermaphodite/intersexual, but don't remember.
I can see your point, and I mentioned before that there is a biological foundation to some aspects of gender.
Still means that these cultures recognized that just because someone has a given set of genitals they don't necessarily are happy to be in the same social category as most other people with that set of genitals.
People reacting offended about being misgendered do so because they assume you don't recognize that fact (and because they may have had a lot of negative experiences with such people).
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 08:31:29 pm by Liu »

Km Anu

  • O.S. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 420
  • Total likes: 196
  • Never will his wrath or might extort from me
    • View Profile
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2019, 11:15:02 pm »
Quote
I would postulate the following interpretation of the study's results: If someone does have childhood trauma, that can make it much more difficult to deal with a preexisting gender-nonconformity, and also to suppress being transgender on top of it.
Just a guess, though, I haven't looked that closely into it.

That's interesting! It's the opposite of my beleif. With this identified, I can use both moving foreward, thank you.

I was thinking along the lines of trauma structuring behavior via negative association. Those negative associations are more likey to manifest as behavioral patterns that favor disassociation with the gender.

By adding the neurological change as causality, it could be said that an individual with the neural make-up to disassociate with their sex is more likely to also disassociate with their gender if they experience early trauma.

You may also be able to theorize that the two are interdependent, that it takes some combination of both for the topic of current discussion to manifest. That is my fluid belief.

Km Anu

  • O.S. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 420
  • Total likes: 196
  • Never will his wrath or might extort from me
    • View Profile
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2019, 11:50:09 pm »
I see figures of speech and poetic license seem to evade you, and to be honest, it's actually draining to have to spell these things out. People find this tedious.

When I say "only a transgender with their perennial insistence for special consideration and accommodations would make."

It's flippant. Tongue-in-cheek. Slight hyperbole for effect. These are perfectly common literary devices. We're not automatons, here... well at least I don't think we are.

Now, I mean not to be inflammatory, this is a legitimate question just so I know the size-of what it is I'm replying to here: are you perchance somewhere on the autism spectrum?

Quote
But how much effort does it however need to use the pronouns a person either asks for or those of the gender that the person obviously tries to pass as.
It doesn't matter how much effort it takes. It's impelled speech. Why is that so hard to wrap your tragically self-absorbed heads around?  I'm not going to be roped-in to arguing something as subjective as to "how hard it is to monitor pronoun usage", because that's patently absurd and totally beside the point. A red herring at best. We're not going down that road.
This argument is of the same form as "well what's it to you if we invade your privacy if you have nothing to hide". It doesn't matter if I have nothing to hide, and it doesn't matter how much effort it takes. My answer is no because no. I'm not going to do it. Kick. Rocks.

In fact, even if I were inclined to accommodate this request, the instant one insists and makes a demand that I do so is the instant I don't (as the saying goes) "because fuck you is why".

The effect you're aiming for is innapropriate for the setting.

"1. Posting
This forum is intended to facilitate mature Left-Hand Path discussions. The boards are lightly moderated, but personal attacks and trolling won't be tolerated. Please format posts so others can read them. You are in control of your content and can modify it at any time with the exception of deleting entire threads."


It doesnt matter what effect you're aiming towards, making your argument by saying "no offense, are you autistic?" Is not appropriate here. Paired with "It's flippant. Tongue-in-cheek. Slight hyperbole for effect," I can only surmise that you're doing this intentionally.

If you do not agree with someone, make a legitimate counter argument. It's okay to ask for clarification, it's okay to disagree, but it's pointless to do so if your only contribution is that you dont agree and dont care to expand.

Asking someone why they interpret what you say the way you do doesnt have to involve questioning the presence of autism spectrum disorder. If you want to be taken seriously and post within the forum guidelines you need to do it without negative descriptors aimed at the character of forum members, like when you refered to everyone as "tragically self-absorbed."

Xepera maSet

  • O.S. Co-founder | OSM Founder
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2427
  • Total likes: 2504
  • uab Nekhekhu (Priest of the Old Gods)
    • View Profile
    • My Book on Setianism
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2019, 12:51:32 am »

ADMIN NOTE:

Disagreement = good

Insulting other forum members = bad

Certain obvious insults will not make it to a third "strike"
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 12:54:33 am by Xepera maSet »

"Do not try to make the sun rise by self-sacrifice,  but wait in confidence for the dawn, and enjoy the pleasure of the night."
- Crowley

IALPRT

  • Guest
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2019, 01:12:52 am »
I don't think there's anything particularly offensive or shameful about being or being perceived as autistic any more so than there is anything particularly offensive or shameful about being or being perceived as trans-whatever. These are both naturally occurring neurological conditions which need to be brought to light maturely if they are to be addressed.

Idiot, I could understand.

If I'm engaging in textual intercourse with a person, knowing if they fall somewhere on the spectrum is important for me at least enough to ask. Similarly if I'm engaging with sexual intercourse with a person, knowing that they are trans is also important for me to know about.

If you find that offensive, maybe the problem is you. Big red letters don't make it so.

That's just the way of things. There has to be a line beyond which the risk offending someone is deemed acceptable, because if we don't draw it for ourselves someone else will, and if you think the C/S is fascist, some very, very big surprises are in store for you if we as a society keep plodding down this path where no one can speak at all for fear of offending someone and risking censure. Is that the world you really want? Because that's the one your "tolerance and sensitivity" is going to get you.

As to my counter-argument: It's in there. Sadly, I'd have to try very hard to make more than a paragraph of it. It is this:

There simply is no justification in my mind for impelled speech. Period.

There is no justification in my mind for the demands a group identity to presume dictate the laws by which two people - two individuals - must address each other. What pronouns they can and cannot use. What level of consideration must be given.

That is for two grown adults to negotiate between themselves as individuals. Just as what two consenting adults do in their own bedroom is their business and their business alone.

If I decide to accommodate a trans-person in their desire to be called he or she despite what I know full well to be true and in spite of my beliefs concerning sex and physiology, it will be because I know and respect that person personally enough to play along. And yeah, that is asking a lot.

No one gets carte blanche for my consideration and uncritical acceptance on account of what they merely identify as. And I honestly can think of nothing more "Christian" than the very premise of universal acceptance based solely on one's claim to an identity.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 01:25:22 am by IALPRT »

Xepera maSet

  • O.S. Co-founder | OSM Founder
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2427
  • Total likes: 2504
  • uab Nekhekhu (Priest of the Old Gods)
    • View Profile
    • My Book on Setianism
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2019, 01:56:53 am »
There's quite a gap between the problem of disagreement offending others and insulting one personally in the sense of an ad hominem fallacy. Hell, fascism relies on ad hominem fallacies, especially those like "you disagree, so you must have cognitive problems".

"Do not try to make the sun rise by self-sacrifice,  but wait in confidence for the dawn, and enjoy the pleasure of the night."
- Crowley

IALPRT

  • Guest
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2019, 02:11:26 am »
That's not an ad-hominen, it was a legitimate question and framed as tactfully as one can. You can read it yourself.

Moreover, a bigger question is who exactly is offended? It seems everyone but the person it was directed to. Why do you suppose that is?


And yes, it is important to know if a person you are communicating with is on the spectrum, because it saves a ton of time when you know that sarcasm, flippancy, figurative language anything non-literal just causes way more confusion than it clarifies. That's just the nature of the beast. It's how they process things. If you know this ahead of time you can___ what's the word? ___ oh right: accommodate them!

Here's a story - it is relevant if you have eyes to see it, bear with me:

A buddy of mine was tasked with implementing a real quick and dirty Captcha system for some site. It consisted of a phrase with words that were different colors. You had to type in the phrase or answer what color is the fourth word or whatever. Not well-thought-out and very quick and dirty. It just had to be quick, nothing too complicated.

So, anyway, he implements it and it seems to be working, but every so often he'd get these calls from the users that every now and again the captcha would just reject their responses even though they knew for sure they entered it right.

Guy spends countless hours - weeks on project that should only take not even a day - trying to replicate the error, refactoring his code, all that. Still, just when he thought he had it nailed down - a day or two later he'd get another call, this time from another user. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

He asks me to look at it, I see nothing wrong with the code, and it just occurs to me

 "well maybe they're just fucking color blind!"

... turns out that's exactly what it was.

They were too embarrassed to say, didn't consider it important, and my buddy just didn't want to risk offending anyone.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 02:30:34 am by IALPRT »

Mindmaster

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2019, 02:32:18 am »
I think there is some causal relationship between being LGBTQ+ and being LHP.
If one is LHP, one does a lot of selfwork, so if one hadn't been aware/certain of one's sexual or gender queerness beforehand, it's likely to come to light. Also the tolerance on the path makes it much easier to acknowledge one's queerness. Therefore, the amount of LHPers who are queer without knowing it is smaller than in the general population.
And if one already knew it before one entered the LHP, it may have contributed to one's decision to become an LHPer, due to the aforementioned tolerance, and also because it can benefit one in dealing with any mental health issues caused by suppressing or having to hide one's queerness.

Everything in someone's life is relevant to pursuing the LHP collectively, but it is not usually specific to that path. I'm perplexed by the being queer and not knowing it comment, if only because I couldn't imagine being in that head space. Self-awareness is probably the most galvanizing personal trait present when someone decides to pursue the path. You know you're not a normie, you know why, but moreover since you are freed from the burden of conformity the LHP becomes really appealing. However, you know it's not a social club and by this juncture you're not needing that -- the need to belong or fit in is gone.

Quote
...unless it's among their personal values to support rights of sexual preference and gender expression.

I'm still at the the "what rights" issue. They have rights to be LGBT, and no one is stopping them. Social norms will not change with any amount of activism, so that's wasted effort. Those change as people are exposed to "the others" and realize they're not any trouble. The only issue I really see is from legal snafus in regard to what is considered marriage, and that's because those laws simply weren't written in mindset of being inclusive of these alternative lifestyles -- it's not that they were particularly written to deny those benefits to these individuals. (Lack of awareness versus actual resistance, two different things...) Affecting the social norm is not a LHPers business even if they project their ego into the issue and make it so. "If you are vexed by the social norm then you're not free of it!" is really the short of it... :D

Quote
From what I heard about the US, the legal situation seems quite a bit worse than here in Germany.

Not really, most transgender people here can do everything anyone else can provided they have the skills and resources. Even in the cases where something more be difficult to accomplish it's still possible, just requires more effort on the part of the individual. Society isn't really against you in that regard, but there are individuals whom are still not on board and that happens anywhere. Rural areas are much more traditional, but that's the case in any country...

Quote
I would agree that for the purpose of changing the minds of homophobic or transphobic people, activism doesn't help, it may even further convince them of their prejudices.
I hardly face any discrimination for being trans here (well I also don't talk about it that often). The only explicitly negative reaction I heard of was a friend of my dad saying that transpeople on pride parades are just attention-hungry. Pride parades aren't exactly the same thing as activism and have their own purpose, but it shows that they can have the opposite effect from the intended one.

To the person that isn't LGBT themselves, a pride parades look like the day they all put on the clown shoes. There isn't any positive social gain to participate in that activity if you ask me. :D

As far as reinforcing negative biases -- that's all pride parades and activism accomplish. But, part of me believes that there is a segment of those communities that have a persecution complex and do get something out of it. The only way for me to understand it easily is if I was contemplating participating in a "Satanic Pride" parade -- would this parade be to enrich me, entertain me, or piss of the normies and put me on their hate radar? :D It's obvious that it's nonsensical either way, but I think you see my point.

The real way for transgenders to gain acceptance is to demonstrate their value to society through results. That's that case for anyone, but especially true when you are extremely non-conventional. That'll change minds faster than anything, if that is a personal priority... It also lines up extremely well with the LHP in execution.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 02:39:43 am by Mindmaster »