Author Topic: Some CoS inside information  (Read 1155 times)

Xepera maSet

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Some CoS inside information
« on: August 27, 2019, 12:08:23 am »
It seems there's a storm coming for CoS, and at the center of it is the question of transgenderism. On one side are Satanists who believe things should stay apolitical and individual, and the other wants take the stand that a transgender individual is objectively the sex they identify with, not their "physical" gender.

The issue is that Peter, Peggy, and Blanche all side with the latter, including many high ranking CoS members. This has led to a situation where Satanists who don't agree with them are being demoted in rank and power within the CoS. This is to the level where guys like the one who runs the official merch website are being demoted to Warlock from Reverend or higher!

Honestly it's about time CoS teams up with guys like me, because I've been calling out this RHP, hierarchy driven CoS reality for years, and it's never been clearer. I don't care how much you support transgender recognition, especially since these guys and gals aren't AGAINST it, just against CoS taking a stance. One member even reported that'd he would happily have sex with a transitioned female and couldn't care less, so long as they appealed to him of course. But this wasn't enough to save from demotion.

If CoS wants to survive, it's time they start asking the questions others have been asking for years, applying the skepticism of authority again, rereading and interpreting holy texts. Otherwise we're in for TST2.0 - RHP edition.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 12:10:19 am by Xepera maSet »

"Do not try to make the sun rise by self-sacrifice,  but wait in confidence for the dawn, and enjoy the pleasure of the night."
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Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2019, 07:27:49 am »
Quote
and the other wants take the stand that a transgender individual is objectively the sex they identify with, not their "physical" gender.
Is that how they phrase it? Then they are simplifying matters a lot with such a claim.
Sex and gender are not the same thing, and a fair amount of trans people (myself included) are non-binary, i.e. consider themselves neither gender (and often consider gender a mere social construct).
In any case, it's certainly not a matter where even every trans person would be of the same opinion as it includes questions of psychology, neurology, culture, and possibly even metaphysics, and telling people what to believe is neither helping the issue nor is it fitting an LHP-organization.

Regarding the comparison with TST - while they are clearly in favor of the rights of trans people, I would not be aware of them having any official stances on these details. So I agree that with that step CoS is imitating TST while being much more RHPy than them.

Hapu

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Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2019, 10:01:25 am »
The CoS clearly needs a new schtick and the TST model may be the path forward for them. The whole "alien elite"  thing isn't working as a marketing tool as far as I can tell. It might have worked if they could point to their members as some sort of actual elite for reasons other than seeing through the same delusions that so many non-Satanists likewise see through. Atheism and a general attitude of skepticism toward social norms are too common nowadays to be counted as a badge of honor.

Now the adjective alien has always had promise and still does. There are many people who feel alienated from society for reasons that some of them have chosen and some of them have not. All of them could find a home in the Island of Misfit Toys that the CoS has honestly always been but has tended not to fully embrace as their primary identity. Satan is Alien. This is the formula that could revitalize their organization. It flows naturally from so much of what they've always been about. Just lose the "elite" part. You're not elite if you're having trouble paying your rent because your college loans (the Great Lie of the West) are slurping down all your resources and leaving you bereft. You're not elite. You're just a person. But you may be alien and looking for a community.

To paraphrase the closing words of the well-known poem, The New Colossus, by Emma Lazarus:

"Bring me your weird, your alienated,
your misfits who question hoary platitudes
and blaze paths through virgin forests.
I, Satan, am safe refuge from the mindless
who'd brandish torches and scream curses at the gate."
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 01:34:22 pm by Hapu »
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Onyx

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2019, 12:51:07 pm »
Quote from: Liu
Sex and gender are not the same thing, and a fair amount of trans people (myself included) are non-binary, i.e. consider themselves neither gender (and often consider gender a mere social construct).

Ironically, what you said reminds me of LaVey's essay about having a Third Side Perspective (or the Satanic Side), in that there are not always two sides to everything.

Many years ago I worked with a guy at a picture framing place who was rather effeminate, liked arts and crafts, of the "motherly" type, had a bit of a "gay lisp" to his voice, and was even a goddamned florist for some number of years. Does that make him a homo?

I really thought he was, but quite the contrary: he wasn't the preachy type, but I later learned he was actually an Apostolic Pentecostal of all things. So you can't judge a book by its cover.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 01:04:22 pm by Onyx »

Inlustratus

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2019, 03:51:06 pm »
>getting your rank lowered in a Satanic community that says that there's no Satanic community and promotes individualism
*scary satanic text*

Km Anu

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Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2019, 05:32:07 pm »
Quote
I really thought he was, but quite the contrary: he wasn't the preachy type, but I later learned he was actually an Apostolic Pentecostal of all things. So you can't judge a book by its cover.

Agreed! My mother identifies as homosexual, and when you ask her she says she always has been, but I'm here. That doesnt really make her a liar, it just means that sexuality is a little misunderstood by most people.

For example, she used to hang out with this drag queen, super tall, gorgeous, funny as all hell on stage, everything you would expect from a performer, which is precisely what he was. Outside of going out and performing, this is a heterosexual married man who's sexuality had nothing to do with his chosen identity on Friday nights.

In my mother's case, our family when she was growing up was southern, poor, and very religious. At the time, bisexuality was not an accepted concept, and later in life other women in her friends group harshly judged lesbians that had been married in the past (silly I know. They're "ghetto") which threatened my moms identity. To cope, she emphasized her abuse as a child in her memory, and her internal language changed. Her marriage became much more of an effort to fit in in her mind than it really was.

Two drastically disconnected scenarios,  but both highlighting the same issue: the way that people currently think about sexuality is better left in their own heads. Lol

Kapalika

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2019, 02:54:38 am »
center of it is the question of transgenderism.

Welp. I always dread when this comes up lol.

Also the term "transgenderism" has a negative connotation and is often used by anti transgender activists. I'd recommend you shy away from using the word, even if it had different uses in the past it is sometimes considered offensive and it won't win you any points with anyone who's trans or an ally.


On one side are Satanists who believe things should stay apolitical and individual, and the other wants take the stand that a transgender individual is objectively the sex they identify with, not their "physical" gender.

Just so everyone reading this is aware, transgender people existing is not political.

It's been well established within the medical field for decades, going as far as brain scans proving that the wiring is different from that of CIS people that were also born as the same physical sex as them.

Satanism is a religion of individualism, it makes no sense to me for a Satanist to be against trans people, particularly when there is a lot of medical literature, clinical evidence, and established effective treatments on the issue.

Also, the CoS has always been political.. Ayn Rand was a big influence. Personal freedom is a huge part of that. Look at the Pentagontal Revision.

The issue is that Peter, Peggy, and Blanche all side with the latter, including many high ranking CoS members. This has led to a situation where Satanists who don't agree with them are being demoted in rank and power within the CoS. This is to the level where guys like the one who runs the official merch website are being demoted to Warlock from Reverend or higher!

Even LaVey said that Satanism should have no problem with someone's self identity or even sexuality, habits or other things. It seems perfectly in line with them to demote people who don't hold to those ideals. I don't agree with the CoS on a lot of things but on this one issue it makes sense given what is written in The Satanic Bible.

I don't care how much you support transgender recognition, especially since these guys and gals aren't AGAINST it, just against CoS taking a stance.

Why are they against the group taking a stance that an individual is free to live their life as they are meant to? Isn't that one of the main points of Satanism in general?


One member even reported that'd he would happily have sex with a transitioned female and couldn't care less, so long as they appealed to him of course. But this wasn't enough to save from demotion.

Right because our recognition is based on how fuckable we are. That kind of reasoning belongs in the garbage. If this was his defense I really wonder what it was that he said in the first place to make it even relevant.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 03:03:51 am by Kapalika »
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Xepera maSet

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Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2019, 03:48:50 am »
#wordtwist

"Do not try to make the sun rise by self-sacrifice,  but wait in confidence for the dawn, and enjoy the pleasure of the night."
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Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2019, 05:23:28 am »
Just so everyone reading this is aware, transgender people existing is not political.
For some people it is - if they believe that us trans people are just a bunch of attention-hungry delusionals or pervs because their world view doesn't allow for the possibility of sex and gender to be incompatible..
Quote
It's been well established within the medical field for decades, going as far as brain scans proving that the wiring is different from that of CIS people that were also born as the same physical sex as them.
As far as I know, according to those studies the tested trans people's brains show some signs of resembling the typical brain of the opposite sex more than of the chromosomal sex. Doesn't mean that every trans person's brain is like that of the opposite sex, only that there are tendencies in that direction.
(Basing that on the paper by Saraswat et al. 2015)

Quote
Why are they against the group taking a stance that an individual is free to live their life as they are meant to? Isn't that one of the main points of Satanism in general?

I would say so - except that I wouldn't understand the phrasing of their stance mentioned above as meaning that. It might have been the intention but as I pointed out in my previous comment, even people fully supporting trans people, and even trans people, might take offense at that claim.

@Xepera maSet What's the actual quote?
Can't seem to find anything on that.

Well, their official stance according to their FAQ is laudable enough (if a bit too self-laudating):
Quote
Does the Church of Satan accept transgender people?
Yes. We have done so since the organization was founded in 1966. The Church of Satan’s philosophy promotes individuals empowering themselves so as to seek personal satisfaction. Magus Anton LaVey embraced people from the entire LGTBQ spectrum wholeheartedly—and well in advance of most other religious organizations—and Magus Gilmore proudly maintains that position. We consider it intrinsic to Satanism to support our fellows’ search for fulfillment so long as it involves other consenting mature, self-aware adults, even when our own pursuits are different. As Magus LaVey wrote in his essay Diabolica: "Man prides himself on being the only animal who can modify his Nature, yet when he chooses to do so he is called a phony." We in the Church of Satan support the decision to modify one's nature employing whatever means are available should one choose that path to attain fulfillment.

If one of our members wishes a membership card reflecting a name change due to a gender identity different from when they originally joined, please supply proof of your updated legal ID for our records. We will then supply an updated membership card.
Well insisting on a legal name change might be a bit pedantic, though, as not everyone is in the position to get that (my name change cost me a month's salary after all - it would have been covered by the state if I wouldn't have been able to afford it, but it is not cheap - and it took them almost a year).

Quote
Right because our recognition is based on how fuckable we are. That kind of reasoning belongs in the garbage. If this was his defense I really wonder what it was that he said in the first place to make it even relevant.
Yeah, if that one did want to say something positive then his phrasing was even worse.

Onyx

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2019, 07:13:14 am »
Quote
If one of our members wishes a membership card reflecting a name change due to a gender identity different from when they originally joined, please supply proof of your updated legal ID for our records. We will then supply an updated membership card.

Quote from: Liu
Well insisting on a legal name change might be a bit pedantic...

Isn't this just an offer to get a new card if you happened to change your name, and keep the files up-to-date? I mean, even if I changed my name without gender being involved wouldn't they do the same thing?

Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2019, 07:25:23 am »
Quote
If one of our members wishes a membership card reflecting a name change due to a gender identity different from when they originally joined, please supply proof of your updated legal ID for our records. We will then supply an updated membership card.

Quote from: Liu
Well insisting on a legal name change might be a bit pedantic...

Isn't this just an offer to get a new card if you happened to change your name, and keep the files up-to-date? I mean, even if I changed my name without gender being involved wouldn't they do the same thing?
Yes, so it's not even anything special on their part, they just are boasting about not being such assholes that they wouldn't even accept the legal change.

Some institutions actually have to change your name in their files if you are trans and insist on it, even before your name change is official - at least that's what some transwoman here in Germany told me who offers advice on legal matters. According to her that would have applied to my university, which however insisted on only changing it in their documents once it was official. Didn't mind - my student ID is also my public transport ticket and so it needed to have the same name on it as my ID card anyway.

With a much less official institution like the CoS they wouldn't have any legal issues either way I suppose, so them insisting on it being the same name as your legal name...

Onyx

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2019, 07:42:02 am »
Quote from: Liu
With a much less official institution like the CoS they wouldn't have any legal issues either way I suppose, so them insisting on it being the same name as your legal name...

Maybe I'm missing something, but I still don't quite see where they are actually insisting on anything?

Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2019, 07:55:28 am »
Quote from: Liu
With a much less official institution like the CoS they wouldn't have any legal issues either way I suppose, so them insisting on it being the same name as your legal name...

Maybe I'm missing something, but I still don't quite see where they are actually insisting on anything?
Well as I understand it they insist on the name they put on your membership card to be your legal name. Why else would they ask to see your ID card as a proof?
Not too much of an issue, but as I said, I don't think they would get legal problems from printing on the membership card whatever name you want to have written on there, which would be much more fitting for an organization focused on individualism.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 07:57:59 am by Liu »

Onyx

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2019, 08:34:44 am »
Quote from: Liu
Not too much of an issue, but as I said, I don't think they would get legal problems from printing on the membership card whatever name you want to have written on there, which would be much more fitting for an organization focused on individualism.

Come to think of it I don't see why it would really matter one way or the other, as newer cards have serial numbers on them.

Hapu

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Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2019, 10:26:16 am »
Why are they against the group taking a stance that an individual is free to live their life as they are meant to? Isn't that one of the main points of Satanism in general?

Full disclosure, I'm technically a member of the CoS. Bought the damned card twice. Lost it twice. Messed around on their message board for a while. Didn't like it. Wasn't for me. I like it here better. More open-minded. More cosmopolitan.

My guess is that some CoS members see standing up for LGBT+ rights as earning a "good guy badge" and they feel contemptuous of that. Every bad guy is (or can be) somebody's good guy. Some CoS members don't like being the good guy. Most TST members, by contrast, very much enjoy the good guy role.

TST has embraced the Prometheus archetype, I think. The CoS largely hasn't. It was always available to them and they always knew it. They just preferred to be cosplay villains rather than heroes.



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