Author Topic: Some CoS inside information  (Read 2499 times)

IALPRT

  • Guest
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2019, 06:47:58 am »
No intentional disrespect and not that I think it should matter, but the way you're describing it really doesn't do a whole lot to assuage me of the notion that it may just actually be a neurological disorder.

Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2019, 06:58:56 am »
No intentional disrespect and not that I think it should matter, but the way you're describing it really doesn't do a whole lot to assuage me of the notion that it may just actually be a neurological disorder.
I didn't claim any different - what else would it be?
Just, it's an unusual neurological disorder in so far as it's best treated by changing the reality to conform to the "delusion" instead of by fighting the delusion as it's inborn and can hardly be gotten rid of.

I always find it strange when e.g. my hormone doctor excuses himself for using medical terminology and stresses that it would not be a disease. But I guess it's understandable that people don't wanna be thought of as mentally ill, especially since most people who call it a mental illness thereby imply that it shouldn't be treated the way it is or that it would be a much easier issue than it is.

Being gender-nonconform on the other hand seems like a much more complex thing, more rooted in psychology than neurology, and more caused by too strict social norms that limit people's individuality.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 07:03:04 am by Liu »

Km Anu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2019, 07:34:00 am »
I think you're right on it Liu. I want to present some similar ideas.

cite

Trauma is a gigantic motivating factor in the human decision making process, but also in how we identify problems. Trauma doesnt always occur in a single event and is defined subjectively, meaning there is no minimum or maximum way to experience it.

Repeated traumatic experiences force a form of escape or acceptance to manifest in behavior.

Trauma that benifits from gender dissasociation as a form of acceptance may manifest as transgenderism.

It's an example that fits your explanation nicely and leaves room for other concepts around the phenomenon's validity.

So far as relevance to CoS,

Along the lines of Trauma and PTSD, people who choose to identify as Transgender report that they are not treated fairly,  even discriminated against. (cite)Subversion of will is wrong, regardless of who it happens to. It is a relevant goal.


Km Anu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2019, 07:56:42 am »
No intentional disrespect and not that I think it should matter, but the way you're describing it really doesn't do a whole lot to assuage me of the notion that it may just actually be a neurological disorder.

A population that experiences a neurological disorder doesnt go away when they're labeled with a neurological disorder. And even so, identifying the cause hasn't ended any of the discrimination. Disorder implies misfunction, but even so it's a misfunction that is lived around, and the only reason it's ever really a problem is because people have a problem with it.

Political bodies (In the United states) appeal to the public's wants as well as their fears and insecurities. They also set our laws in accordance with these principles to ensure equality. If someone is not being treated equally (or feels as if they aren't) they should not be dismissed as sick. They should be free to Express themselves however they want, and still be treated as normal functioning adults. If that is too opinion driven, then at the very least everyone deserves to live free of stigma when they have done nothing amoral.

Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2019, 10:19:44 am »
I think you're right on it Liu. I want to present some similar ideas.

cite

Trauma is a gigantic motivating factor in the human decision making process, but also in how we identify problems. Trauma doesnt always occur in a single event and is defined subjectively, meaning there is no minimum or maximum way to experience it.

Repeated traumatic experiences force a form of escape or acceptance to manifest in behavior.

Trauma that benifits from gender dissasociation as a form of acceptance may manifest as transgenderism.

It's an example that fits your explanation nicely and leaves room for other concepts around the phenomenon's validity.

So far as relevance to CoS,

Along the lines of Trauma and PTSD, people who choose to identify as Transgender report that they are not treated fairly,  even discriminated against. (cite)Subversion of will is wrong, regardless of who it happens to. It is a relevant goal.
Interesting paper - they seem to conflate things a bit though. Normally one can only be diagnosed as transgender if other causes (like schizophrenia, transvestite fetishism, etc) are excluded. So I would assume that also trauma-caused gender dissociation (if that's even a thing - after all they say gender dissociation can be diagnosed even in some 2 year olds and that they remain agnostic as to what's the cause and what's the effect) would be something distinguished from being actually transgender.

The definition of gender dysphoria in that article seems also strange to me as it doesn't include anything regarding feeling uncomfortable with one's sexual physical characteristics, which to me (and also according to my therapist) would be the only defining criterion.
In other words, they are talking about gender-nonconform people, not transgender people in particular.

I would postulate the following interpretation of the study's results: If someone does have childhood trauma, that can make it much more difficult to deal with a preexisting gender-nonconformity, and also to suppress being transgender on top of it.
Just a guess, though, I haven't looked that closely into it.

EDIT: This was directed to the paper in the first link. It basically also applies to the second one, though.

The second one also confirms that acting gender-nonconform can lead to having traumatic childhood experiences.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 10:30:12 am by Liu »

Hapu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2019, 01:39:53 pm »
...If I am of the belief that man is just another animal, then there is and can only be sex as the word gender does not apply to animals. It is only in the sense of human beings being somehow "different" than animals that the whole issue of gender arises in the first place. An issue that I, personally, believe is complete and utter nonsense.

A thought-provoking application of the 7th Satanic Statement. And it does seem theoretically workable to achieve indifference to gender, be it one's own or anyone else's. Of course workable and easy are not the same thing.

Hapu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2019, 01:45:27 pm »
The definition of gender dysphoria in that article seems also strange to me as it doesn't include anything regarding feeling uncomfortable with one's sexual physical characteristics, which to me (and also according to my therapist) would be the only defining criterion.
In other words, they are talking about gender-nonconform people, not transgender people in particular.

I would have identified "feeling uncomfortable with one's sexual physical characteristics" as transsexual rather than transgender. Why do you use the latter term?



IALPRT

  • Guest
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2019, 01:47:24 pm »
While it is true that neurological issues don't just go away and civilized society must somehow come to terms with this, nothing about that causes me to question what the Church of Satan - or any church for that matter - is doing about it. Especially not in a secular nation. That's a weird leap that only a transgender with their perennial insistence for special consideration and accommodations would make.

IALPRT

  • Guest
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2019, 01:52:55 pm »
...If I am of the belief that man is just another animal, then there is and can only be sex as the word gender does not apply to animals. It is only in the sense of human beings being somehow "different" than animals that the whole issue of gender arises in the first place. An issue that I, personally, believe is complete and utter nonsense.

A thought-provoking application of the 7th Satanic Statement. And it does seem theoretically workable to achieve indifference to gender, be it one's own or anyone else's. Of course workable and easy are not the same thing.

Indeed. When I first read the OP without reading the article, I could only think "good for them, that's right man is just another animal, and gender doesn't apply to animals - way to stick to your guns! screw these whiny leftists". Imagine my dismay when I actually read the article!

Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2019, 02:06:32 pm »
The definition of gender dysphoria in that article seems also strange to me as it doesn't include anything regarding feeling uncomfortable with one's sexual physical characteristics, which to me (and also according to my therapist) would be the only defining criterion.
In other words, they are talking about gender-nonconform people, not transgender people in particular.

I would have identified "feeling uncomfortable with one's sexual physical characteristics" as transsexual rather than transgender. Why do you use the latter term?
I always heard those terms are full synonyms and that transsexual is being avoided in order to also include those who don't undergo or haven't yet undergone physical changes like surgery or hormone treatment but are only doing more superficial changes to their physical appearance, and to avoid using the term sexual as it's not about sex as an activity or sexual preference.

While it is true that neurological issues don't just go away and civilized society must somehow come to terms with this, nothing about that causes me to question what the Church of Satan - or any church for that matter - is doing about it. Especially not in a secular nation. That's a weird leap that only a transgender with their perennial insistence for special consideration and accommodations would make.
Which special accommodations are you taking about that would only be demanded by trans people? I suppose getting to choose which pronouns people use could count (except that pretty much anyone would feel disrespected by being mis-gendered, no matter whether they are trans or not), but can't really think of anything further.
I don't know many trans people, though, I mainly speak for myself.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 02:08:49 pm by Liu »

IALPRT

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Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2019, 04:37:08 pm »
Were you asleep during the transgender bathroom debate?
*incidentally, no. You don't get to choose how people address you. I use gender to differentiate sex. My dog is a he. A male that thinks he is a she is also one too.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 04:39:12 pm by IALPRT »

Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2019, 05:02:05 pm »
Were you asleep during the transgender bathroom debate?
Did not happen in my country, from all I hear it's completely normal here that people go to the bathrooms of the gender they identify with. But admittedly I hardly have to do with other transpeople here, so I don't know how they normally handle it.

From my outside point of view, the bathroom debate seemed to be about transpeople normally going to the bathroom of the gender they identified with, and then some people starting to complain, not vice versa.

Quote
*incidentally, no. You don't get to choose how people address you. I use gender to differentiate sex. My dog is a he. A male that thinks he is a she is also one too.
How do you call intersexuals then? "it"?
I didn't say that this would not be asking for an accommodation, but what I was saying is that it's not only transpeople who demand these rights.

IALPRT

  • Guest
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2019, 05:08:08 pm »
Did not happen in my country, from all I hear it's completely normal here that people go to the bathrooms of the gender they identify with. But admittedly I hardly have to do with other transpeople here, so I don't know how they normally handle it.

From my outside point of view, the bathroom debate seemed to be about transpeople normally going to the bathroom of the gender they identified with, and then some people starting to complain, not vice versa.


That it isn't happening in your own backyard doesn't make it any less of an accommodation, and clearly not one you were unaware of.
Quote
How do you call intersexuals then? "it"?
I didn't say that this would not be asking for an accommodation, but what I was saying is that it's not only transpeople who demand these rights.
I call them whatever I - not they - deem most appropriate given the person and scenario. One's confusion about their own physiology is just not sufficient cause for me to consent to what amounts to impelled speech. Sorry.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 05:13:38 pm by IALPRT »

Liu

Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2019, 05:22:34 pm »
Did not happen in my country, from all I hear it's completely normal here that people go to the bathrooms of the gender they identify with. But admittedly I hardly have to do with other transpeople here, so I don't know how they normally handle it.

From my outside point of view, the bathroom debate seemed to be about transpeople normally going to the bathroom of the gender they identified with, and then some people starting to complain, not vice versa.
That it isn't happening in your own backyard doesn't make it any less of an accommodation, and clearly not one you were unaware of.
It doesn't feel like an accomodation to me, and it does not only apply to transpeople, that's why I didn't mention it.

Quote
Quote
How do you call intersexuals then? "it"?
I didn't say that this would not be asking for an accommodation, but what I was saying is that it's not only transpeople who demand these rights.
I call them whatever I - not they - deem most appropriate given the person and scenario. One's confusion about their own physiology is just not sufficient cause for me to consent to what amounts to impelled speech. Sorry.
Well if you consider it a good idea to hold a bag of spiders in front of someone with arachnophobia...

IALPRT

  • Guest
Re: Some CoS inside information
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2019, 05:42:40 pm »
It doesn't feel like an accomodation to me, and it does not only apply to transpeople, that's why I didn't mention it.


That things can equally be said of an unrelated subject does nothing to negate what is said about the subject in focus.

If I were in the least concerned with what it feels like to you I would have stated:
That's a weird leap that only liu with her perennial insistence for special consideration and accommodations would make.

Quote
Well if you consider it a good idea to hold a bag of spiders in front of someone with arachnophobia...
Nonsense. How often am I - or anyone - holding a bag of spiders? How often do I use pronouns (FFS)? It's not an accommodation to ask someone not to do something they would never a million years be inclined to do in the first place.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 05:44:38 pm by IALPRT »