Author Topic: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?  (Read 497 times)

Xepera maSet

Whether seeking salvation and submission, disillusion, worship of the State, or simply reducing the self to deterministic meat, the vast majority of ideologies I have studied do not respect or love the Individual Self like the LHP. East or west, totalitarian or secular, and everywhere in between, something they seem to share is this trait of the self being bad, mistaken, an illusion, or even pretending it's simply what the brain does. Is there any group outside of the "Western" LHP that shares our respect for individual selves? Or is that a defining trait of our path?
AKA: Three Scarabs, 1137

"You look up into the night sky - whether as a child or an adult - and if you open yourself honestly, then it is a gateway to mystery, to the unknown."

Kapalika

Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2017, 05:35:05 pm »
We should define "self" here. Otherwise my first inclination is to say many could/can qualify. When people say "the self is an illusion" they actually mean the ego, not the actual "true" self of which one is in ignorance of. I think Crowley kind of expressed the same thing with our wills. It's easy to mistake our self-image for our actual self. Which is really what the illusionary thing is all about. But of course it's a lot deeper than it first appears.

In the closest sense as I've mentioned before the Kashmiri Shaivite Kaula tradition is very much like something straight out of modern western LHP and it's centuries old from India but it is Left Hand Path to start with. So it doesn't really qualify to your question.

I think some new age movements and RHP pagan / witch stuff is pretty close. At least in my experience a lot of those kinds of people are very concerned with themselves and individualism although they have some moral baggage, as is typical of most people. And I think that humanism generally values individualism.

If what you are asking is if they value individualism over collective then that's a bit' tougher. Most belief systems that don't value large-scale benefit don't gain a lot of traction from common people because humans rely on cooperation for survival, and so there is a natural aversion to it. I'm of the persuasion though that true individualism and collectivism are complimentary not opposed. It's easier to be an individual when there isn't oppression, and it's easier to have collective benifit when people are recognized as individuals. In my mind proper collectivism relies on individuality as a starting point.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 05:39:04 pm by Shamira »
My Music and Blog // My Chatroom
My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmāchāra (LHP)
"God and the individual are one, to realize this is the essence of Shaivism.” - Lakshman Joo

merytseth

  • Guest
Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2017, 07:08:25 pm »
I'm of the persuasion though that true individualism and collectivism are complimentary not opposed. It's easier to be an individual when there isn't oppression, and it's easier to have collective benifit when people are recognized as individuals. In my mind proper collectivism relies on individuality as a starting point.
I'm quoting this because I completely agree.  One of the most insightful and concise explanations I've seen of my own thoughts.  Thank you.

As for Xepera's original question, it isn't exactly RHP or LHP, but have you read any of Jung's work on alchemy?

Hammerheart

Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2017, 01:32:38 pm »
The "LHP" is sort of a false umbrella made in recent times to signify various religions that strongly value the Self, logic, reason, strength, etc. There are some religions which are debatable in the their role in the Left Hand Path. I've heard religions like Wicca preferred to as LHP, however most would probably disagree. Even actual Paganism gets thrown in, which I have to disagree with.

I think that all non-abrahamic religions place more value on one's Self than their abrahamic counterparts, which really do not value the Self at all. I think that most of these religions are compatible with the LHP because of this.

Xepera maSet

Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2017, 09:44:55 pm »
I have been meditating on this and the who Chaoskampf things, and to me it seems the majority of the world adhere to the exact same being or force, which can be equated both with Nature/God and with the great chaotic malevolence. Causing sickness and death, suffering and barbarianism, with nothing but consciousness and its Forms to bring order to all that chaos.
AKA: Three Scarabs, 1137

"You look up into the night sky - whether as a child or an adult - and if you open yourself honestly, then it is a gateway to mystery, to the unknown."

Ningishzidda

Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2017, 12:55:58 am »
Whether seeking salvation and submission, disillusion, worship of the State, or simply reducing the self to deterministic meat, the vast majority of ideologies I have studied do not respect or love the Individual Self like the LHP. East or west, totalitarian or secular, and everywhere in between, something they seem to share is this trait of the self being bad, mistaken, an illusion, or even pretending it's simply what the brain does. Is there any group outside of the "Western" LHP that shares our respect for individual selves? Or is that a defining trait of our path?

Yes, The Ayn Rand Institute, which is very active and well funded, as well as the inspiration for Lavey to formulate the Church of Satan, is very much the original "Selfish" organization. They are not for everybody, and they tend to be very disinterested in anything occult, but they are far, far more authentic than some of the Ayn Rand groups out there which are more about dissecting Ayn Rand and picking what they like, then, forming a group-think organization around the bits they like.

The Ayn Rand Institute is extremely rigorous in their analysis and quite mature and tolerant. I like them a lot but then again I like Ayn Rand, and dislike her followers intensely, most of the time.

Ayn Rand was outright wrong about a lot of things, but she nailed it when it came to individual autonomy and self worth.

merytseth

  • Guest
Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2017, 12:42:19 pm »
The Ayn Rand Institute is extremely rigorous in their analysis and quite mature and tolerant. I like them a lot but then again I like Ayn Rand, and dislike her followers intensely, most of the time.

Ayn Rand was outright wrong about a lot of things, but she nailed it when it came to individual autonomy and self worth.

That's a rather apt assessment of Rand, I'd say.  I sometimes forget how much I learned from Anthem before I became so jaded by my interactions with her devotees.

Xepera maSet

Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2017, 12:46:09 pm »
I was a brief fan of Rand, but while getting my minor in Justice Studies I came to prefer the goal and ideas of John Rawls.
AKA: Three Scarabs, 1137

"You look up into the night sky - whether as a child or an adult - and if you open yourself honestly, then it is a gateway to mystery, to the unknown."

Mike

Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2017, 10:46:17 am »
Max Stirner, the author of "The Ego and Its Own" is (arguably) the Self's supreme advocate.
Here be Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Stirner .
Also worth a peek http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secG6.html

Deidre

Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2017, 12:06:58 pm »
Atheism, and to some degrees, Zen Buddhism. Atheists, while atheism isn't an ideology per se, tend to focus on self, and achieving the greater good for humanity.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 12:08:36 pm by Deidre »
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black

crossfire

Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2017, 12:16:24 pm »
Whether seeking salvation and submission, disillusion, worship of the State, or simply reducing the self to deterministic meat, the vast majority of ideologies I have studied do not respect or love the Individual Self like the LHP. East or west, totalitarian or secular, and everywhere in between, something they seem to share is this trait of the self being bad, mistaken, an illusion, or even pretending it's simply what the brain does. Is there any group outside of the "Western" LHP that shares our respect for individual selves? Or is that a defining trait of our path?
Actually, Buddhism has the greatest respect for individual sentient beings, in that the Bodhisattva vows recognize sentient beings as being prone to delusion, yet capable of awakening, and deserving of compassion.  Individual sentient beings have Buddha Nature, which is like The Temple Of Set's "Gift of Set" of isolate consciousness/subjective mind.
Regarding the Self, Buddhism is careful to describe it by what it is not, rather than what it is.  Just because the basis for consciousness cannot be traced, it does not mean it does not exist.  It just means it cannot be defined accurately and with any certainty. (Which makes it even more wondrous!)
Here is the chapter from the Dhammapada about the Self, and how you are the caretaker of ones own Self.  With the Self difficult to grasp and define, you are the one who has the power to strengthen and evolve ones Self, or you can undo all the work you have done more effectively than the worst enemy can harm you.  Here are the last two lines of that chapter:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html
Quote
165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depend on oneself; no one can purify another.

166. Let one not neglect one's own welfare for the sake of another, however great. Clearly understanding one's own welfare, let one be intent upon the good.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 12:18:22 pm by crossfire »
"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."
~Carl Jung

Kapalika

Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2017, 09:49:29 pm »
Yesterday as I was reading Jaideva Singh's commentaries/translation on the Shiva Sutras I kept noticing things phrased as "freeing" the "individual" and language like that focused on individualism in it's explanations of the Sutras and remarks from his guru.

I know I've talked a lot about it before (Trika) but I really think it's one of the few systems that recognize true individualism. At the same time, it's the most undiluted nondual system by not locking itself into full monism (another dualism imo).  The best metaphor for this is how Shiva has many personalities... nataraja, many forms of Bhairava, Rudra, Kali, Shakti, and basically any deity... all are individuated but also fully themselves with their own distinct personality.  Well that might not actually be a metaphor! It could be very literal depending on how you see it... one becoming a literal god among the other gods. United in divinity and yet also themselves.

I think that is why the Sutras describe citta becoming cit; unlike Trika a lot of nondual religions citta is destroyed and you loose individualization and doership... but in Trika there is that maintained stream of consciousness and concreteness of the self from limited-self to full-self as realized by one's inner-nature as inherently divine.

It's a little harder to define this as outside the LHP... Trika is Tantric, and many schools of it are LHP but there is nothing about Trika in general that has to necessarily be LHP in the traditional sense and many are RHP... but I think if properly understood most here would label Trika as a whole LHP when seen through the western lens.

EDIT: I mentioned Kaula in this thread earlier, and I was referring to the Trika school of Kaula. A form of more RHP-ish Trika might be something like Spanda.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 09:54:55 pm by Kapalika »
My Music and Blog // My Chatroom
My religion is Satanism & Trika via Vāmāchāra (LHP)
"God and the individual are one, to realize this is the essence of Shaivism.” - Lakshman Joo

Mike

Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2017, 10:49:18 am »
I was pondering the notion of Self in Jainism. At least nominally the Individual Self is the sovereign reality and Self liberation the highest task in Jainism: "Jainism strongly upholds the individualistic nature of soul and personal responsibility for one's decisions; and that self-reliance and individual efforts alone are responsible for one's liberation...Jainism does not invoke fear of or reverence for God or conformity to the divine character as a reason for moral behaviour, and observance of the moral code is not necessary simply because it is God's will. Neither is its observance necessary simply because it is altruistic or humanistic, conducive to general welfare of the state or the community. Rather it is an egoistic imperative aimed at self-liberation. While it is true that in Jainism, the moral and religious injunctions were laid down as law by Arihants who have achieved perfection through their supreme moral efforts, their adherence is just not to please a God, but because the life of the Arihants has demonstrated that such commandments were conducive to the Arihant's own welfare, helping them to reach spiritual victory. Just as the Arihants achieved moksha or liberation by observing the moral code, so can anyone, who follows this path." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_philosophy. Obviously the reality of Jainism as it is practiced in the real world is a wee bit different...

Setamontet

Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2017, 11:51:40 am »
While it is true that in Jainism, the moral and religious injunctions were laid down as law by Arihants who have achieved perfection through their supreme moral efforts, their adherence is just not to please a God, but because the life of the Arihants has demonstrated that such commandments were conducive to the Arihant's own welfare, helping them to reach spiritual victory.

What I call the "Three Commandments of Set" derived from "The Word of Set" document, are not necessarily meant to please the Setian Neter, but more over to encourage the individual Setian's Will to Xeper on his/her own path of spiritual divinity and perfection.  However, the Law is for all;

The Three Commandments of Set:

I.  Arise in your glory,

II.  Behold the genius of your creation,

III.  And be prideful of being,

For I am the same - I who am the Highest of Life.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 12:27:46 pm by Setamontet »

"Arise in your glory, behold the genius of your creation, and be prideful of being,
for I am the same - I who am the Highest of Life." - The Word of Set

crossfire

Re: Is there an ideology outside the LHP which values the Self?
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2017, 12:32:13 pm »
I was pondering the notion of Self in Jainism. At least nominally the Individual Self is the sovereign reality and Self liberation the highest task in Jainism: "Jainism strongly upholds the individualistic nature of soul and personal responsibility for one's decisions; and that self-reliance and individual efforts alone are responsible for one's liberation...Jainism does not invoke fear of or reverence for God or conformity to the divine character as a reason for moral behaviour, and observance of the moral code is not necessary simply because it is God's will. Neither is its observance necessary simply because it is altruistic or humanistic, conducive to general welfare of the state or the community. Rather it is an egoistic imperative aimed at self-liberation. While it is true that in Jainism, the moral and religious injunctions were laid down as law by Arihants who have achieved perfection through their supreme moral efforts, their adherence is just not to please a God, but because the life of the Arihants has demonstrated that such commandments were conducive to the Arihant's own welfare, helping them to reach spiritual victory. Just as the Arihants achieved moksha or liberation by observing the moral code, so can anyone, who follows this path." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_philosophy. Obviously the reality of Jainism as it is practiced in the real world is a wee bit different...
Jainism is a Shramanic path like Buddhism.  Jainism views karma as like a sticky substance that keeps the jiva trapped, unlike Buddhism which views karma as intention.  So in practice, Jainism is more focused on freeing the jiva from the sticky karma than on freeing your mind like Buddhism, so you will see some odd practices in Jainism related to this.
"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."
~Carl Jung