Author Topic: Can one worship Satan and other pantheons?  (Read 1146 times)

Etu Malku

Re: Can one worship Satan and other pantheons?
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2019, 01:35:42 am »
I would rather someone worship Satan, or a pre-Christian god instead of Yahweh. I believe some gods are what I call "pretenders to the throne" i.e. anti-natural deities which seek eradication of innate nature.

Yahweh is the most popular of this, and in the Christian Bible they say that when a sinner accepts Yeshua that their old nature "dies" and that they gain a new nature (hence being "born again").

Contrasting, Satanists are "born, not made" just one day someone becomes aware of the description. Hindu view is that one's nature as divine is innate, just unrealized. Hence there is no destruction of the old nature, rather the destruction is of the new, illusion of confusion that obscures pure sight of nature (shuddha vidya). It is still pro-nature.

If a Satanist, Luciferian or Setian attempts to attain some form of "higher self" that is a realizing one's full potential, this is essentially embracing said nature. It was always there inside of them, innate.

Christianity would say to forsake this, and instead trust everything to a deity that keeps one limited so that they can be controlled. It is illusion and delusion, or in some cases something akin to a thought form that has taken on it's own life that group thought can no longer contain. It's existence relies on people being kept in spiritual infancy, otherwise they would realize it's unreal nature and it would die.

With the foundation of the natural world gone, or at least avoided, people stray further from their innate nature and become more stuck in ignorance. This is why I worship Satan and exalt the natural world; it is the key through which enlightenment is attained.

As it says on our homepage, "The Path of Darkness leads to Enlightenment." At least where I am coming from, the Universe and Kali are traditionally seen as "Darkness" and it is said the way to Shiva is through worship of Shakti (Darkness).

Many of us already do this, Setians have Set and the Black Flame, and Satanists have Satan and the Carnal. Luciferians emulate the same ideas, but with light to symbolize the revelation itself rather than the method but it's the same between all these paths IMO it's just different language and symbolism. These are all Left Hand Path so it makes sense that the methodology and underlying premise is the same.

I should clarify that on Luciferianism I think that there is more of a focus on balance. In Satanism this is sometimes touched upon for example in the idea of "counter productive pride" ect Setianism as far as I can tell, focuses more on exerting effort towards the realized self, as a process of refinement. Similar to Luciferian in that aspect of balance, but with more of a focus on overcoming the limitations of nature while embracing the more emergent aspects of consciousness.


In other words I think the underlying premises are largely the same, it's a difference of focus in various areas and different sides of similar (although not identical) "puzzles". What some might consider "unnatural" or supernatural I might consider totally "natural" which can really confuse the discussion, so take into consideration I am describing natural as that which is the most innate quality of something even if it is "alien" or "different" from the material world.

You can worship whatever/whoever you want . . . the quest is, why would you want to worship anything other than your Self? I'd like to point out that admiration and emulation are not forms of worshiping.

If one takes the position that Satan's nature and our nature are the same, or at least from the same source, then it is a veneration of the qualities that one seeks to emulate.

Functionally, worship of an archetype is to try to emulate and take on those traits. This is common in symbolic Satanism just without explicit worship. In Tantra, the LHP sects traditionally imitate the deities in a literal sense to take on their traits.

The idea is to become the deity which is synonymous with becoming equal to the deity but distinct because the god is a tool towards liberation . It is worship of Self. The deity is the vessel. This applies to any kind of path that seeks apotheosis.

This kind of worship lies out of fast and hard categories of theism and atheism.
We Mercuræns do not fall into what we believe to be delusion in regards to non-corporeal entities. Rather, we strive to realize further and further the only GOD we will ever come to know and hopefully understand . . . our GodSelf, or Greater Self.

Playing with archetypal structures and the like is merely reorganizing our neural synapses towards our ultimate goal.

Make no mistake, we believe those on 'any' so-called LHP who even entertain the ideas of non-corporeal entities or anything other than one's Greater Self are delusional at worst and confused at least.
IAMTHATIAMNOT

Liu

Re: Can one worship Satan and other pantheons?
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2019, 10:04:36 am »
Quote from: Inlustratus
At the same time I both believe and don't believe in the literal existence of Lucifer.

I can relate to this statement, it's that unknown thing which is difficult to put a finger on. This probably isn't a real word, but dare I say "quasi-theism"?
That notion sounds familiar :mrgreen: I can't truly believe in a personal deity for the time being, but I utterly enjoy behaving as if it exists, and am convinced that it exists at least as an impersonal principle.

Many of us already do this, Setians have Set and the Black Flame, and Satanists have Satan and the Carnal. Luciferians emulate the same ideas, but with light to symbolize the revelation itself rather than the method but it's the same between all these paths IMO it's just different language and symbolism. These are all Left Hand Path so it makes sense that the methodology and underlying premise is the same.

I should clarify that on Luciferianism I think that there is more of a focus on balance. In Satanism this is sometimes touched upon for example in the idea of "counter productive pride" ect Setianism as far as I can tell, focuses more on exerting effort towards the realized self, as a process of refinement. Similar to Luciferian in that aspect of balance, but with more of a focus on overcoming the limitations of nature while embracing the more emergent aspects of consciousness.


In other words I think the underlying premises are largely the same, it's a difference of focus in various areas and different sides of similar (although not identical) "puzzles".

I don't really relate to that term carnal. What I associate with that puts the focus on not so central parts of my path. I have been told before that by my focus I'm rather a Luciferian than a Satanist. But that also doesn't seem to really fit.

You can worship whatever/whoever you want . . . the quest is, why would you want to worship anything other than your Self? I'd like to point out that admiration and emulation are not forms of worshiping.

Could you provide some definition of worship then?
According to Merriam Webster it's
"1 : to honor or show reverence for as a divine being or supernatural power
2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion"

And admiration is a central aspect of worship in my opinion and can easily lead to emulation.


We Mercuræns do not fall into what we believe to be delusion in regards to non-corporeal entities. Rather, we strive to realize further and further the only GOD we will ever come to know and hopefully understand . . . our GodSelf, or Greater Self.

Playing with archetypal structures and the like is merely reorganizing our neural synapses towards our ultimate goal.

Make no mistake, we believe those on 'any' so-called LHP who even entertain the ideas of non-corporeal entities or anything other than one's Greater Self are delusional at worst and confused at least.
I wouldn't adopt such a dogmatic disbelief. I simply don't know whether non-corporeal entities exist, and I have heard of some stuff that is more easily explained by positing their existence.

But your position seems quite similar to what @Kapalika described the Hindu approach towards deities to be like.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 10:18:34 am by Liu »

Etu Malku

Re: Can one worship Satan and other pantheons?
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2019, 05:23:06 pm »
You can worship whatever/whoever you want . . . the quest is, why would you want to worship anything other than your Self? I'd like to point out that admiration and emulation are not forms of worshiping.

Could you provide some definition of worship then?
According to Merriam Webster it's
"1 : to honor or show reverence for as a divine being or supernatural power
2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion"

And admiration is a central aspect of worship in my opinion and can easily lead to emulation.
In terms of the LHP I would define worship as placing something or someone on a higher spiritual level than oneself.


We Mercuræns do not fall into what we believe to be delusion in regards to non-corporeal entities. Rather, we strive to realize further and further the only GOD we will ever come to know and hopefully understand . . . our GodSelf, or Greater Self.

Playing with archetypal structures and the like is merely reorganizing our neural synapses towards our ultimate goal.

Make no mistake, we believe those on 'any' so-called LHP who even entertain the ideas of non-corporeal entities or anything other than one's Greater Self are delusional at worst and confused at least.
I wouldn't adopt such a dogmatic disbelief. I simply don't know whether non-corporeal entities exist, and I have heard of some stuff that is more easily explained by positing their existence.

But your position seems quite similar to what @Kapalika described the Hindu approach towards deities to be like.
[/quote]What is the "Hindu approach towards deities"?
IAMTHATIAMNOT

Liu

Re: Can one worship Satan and other pantheons?
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2019, 07:05:21 pm »
In terms of the LHP I would define worship as placing something or someone on a higher spiritual level than oneself.
Depends on what you mean by spiritual level - but merely believing that another entity is more powerful than oneself doesn't mean one is worshiping it, imo, nor would that belief be unLHPy in and of itself. Else, if this belief was forbidden to an LHPer and would turn out to be true, one would need to believe untruth to be an LHPer.

Quote
What is the "Hindu approach towards deities"?
Well, it's not the same approach in all forms of Hinduism of course, but she wrote something about LHP-Tantra in her last comment in this thread - this was what I was referring to:
In Tantra, the LHP sects traditionally imitate the deities in a literal sense to take on their traits.

The idea is to become the deity which is synonymous with becoming equal to the deity but distinct because the god is a tool towards liberation . It is worship of Self. The deity is the vessel. This applies to any kind of path that seeks apotheosis.

This kind of worship lies out of fast and hard categories of theism and atheism.
I had been imprecise as you had just quoted the same so I thought you would know what I'm talking about. Nevertheless, pretty sure I heard of similar also in other forms of Hinduism, especially of course the advaita forms of it.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 07:12:04 pm by Liu »

Liu

Re: Can one worship Satan and other pantheons?
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2019, 07:48:58 pm »
Oh, if by "placing" you don't mean "believing" but "acting as if" - then I can see why you would call that worshiping.
Still, I don't see anything wrong with that, I quite like to act in that way. I'm pretty sure that if there is something like a true will then mine involves submitting to my deity, independent of whether that deity exists, independent of whether it's just part of my psyche or not.
So how would me doing exactly what I want be in contradiction with the LHP?

Etu Malku

Re: Can one worship Satan and other pantheons?
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2019, 12:27:15 am »
In terms of the LHP I would define worship as placing something or someone on a higher spiritual level than oneself.
Depends on what you mean by spiritual level - but merely believing that another entity is more powerful than oneself doesn't mean one is worshiping it, imo, nor would that belief be unLHPy in and of itself. Else, if this belief was forbidden to an LHPer and would turn out to be true, one would need to believe untruth to be an LHPer.

Quote
What is the "Hindu approach towards deities"?
Well, it's not the same approach in all forms of Hinduism of course, but she wrote something about LHP-Tantra in her last comment in this thread - this was what I was referring to:
In Tantra, the LHP sects traditionally imitate the deities in a literal sense to take on their traits.

The idea is to become the deity which is synonymous with becoming equal to the deity but distinct because the god is a tool towards liberation . It is worship of Self. The deity is the vessel. This applies to any kind of path that seeks apotheosis.

This kind of worship lies out of fast and hard categories of theism and atheism.
I had been imprecise as you had just quoted the same so I thought you would know what I'm talking about. Nevertheless, pretty sure I heard of similar also in other forms of Hinduism, especially of course the advaita forms of it.
It is a well-known fact that I do not agree with Kapalika's understanding of the left hand path or Hinduism. this is why I was surprised by your association between us.

My understanding of 'worship' is relative to the word 'supplicate', Theistic Satanism or spiritual Satanism is the umbrella term for religious beliefs that consider Satan as an objectively existing supernatural being or force worthy of supplication, with whom individuals may contact, convene and even praise, rather than him being just an archetype, symbol or idea as in LaVeyan Satanism.

The word 'Supplication' means the action of asking or begging for something earnestly or humbly", it deserves attention from the definition in that this is a key difference between Theistic and non-Theistic Satanism. Non-Theistic Satanism/Luciferianism has no supplication involved, does not believe in deities other than archetypal structures, or symbols.
IAMTHATIAMNOT

Onyx

Re: Can one worship Satan and other pantheons?
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2019, 01:48:11 am »
Quote from: Etu Malku
The word 'Supplication' means the action of asking or begging for something earnestly or humbly", it deserves attention from the definition in that this is a key difference between Theistic and non-Theistic Satanism. Non-Theistic Satanism/Luciferianism has no supplication involved, does not believe in deities other than archetypal structures, or symbols.

Dr. Flowers once described the Prince of Darkness as the "prime-initiator of isolate self-aware intelligence". But forget about theism, what about auto-theism? One definition from the Oxford dictionary:

Quote
Belief in oneself as God, or a god; self-deification or self-worship.

Conventional religions teach that one day I will meet my maker. Who is the maker? As it stands, the only maker I am subject to is myself. I've made the joke before that if I prayed or groveled before Set, he would probably send a tornado my way in return.

One friend has used the phrase "Set is both within and without". My interpretation of that is sort of like the difference between mathematical Pi written as a subjectively perfect representation versus it only existing in the objective realm as an approximation. The most accurate approximations of Pi probably exist in the large memories of supercomputers of our own design rather than within nature itself.

I do consider myself to be a theist, but my apprehension of Set is pretty abstract. I invoke "the Set within", as I've already been deigned with the means to explore the essence of Selfhood on my own.


Liu

Re: Can one worship Satan and other pantheons?
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2019, 04:56:36 am »
It is a well-known fact that I do not agree with Kapalika's understanding of the left hand path or Hinduism. this is why I was surprised by your association between us.
I see - well, I came to a similar understanding of (some forms of) Hinduism independent of her, which is why I agree with her on that.

She seems much more knowledgeable on Hinduism than I am, though.

Quote
My understanding of 'worship' is relative to the word 'supplicate', Theistic Satanism or spiritual Satanism is the umbrella term for religious beliefs that consider Satan as an objectively existing supernatural being or force worthy of supplication, with whom individuals may contact, convene and even praise, rather than him being just an archetype, symbol or idea as in LaVeyan Satanism.

The word 'Supplication' means the action of asking or begging for something earnestly or humbly", it deserves attention from the definition in that this is a key difference between Theistic and non-Theistic Satanism. Non-Theistic Satanism/Luciferianism has no supplication involved, does not believe in deities other than archetypal structures, or symbols.
Also some non-theistic Satanists employ such behavior, though, it's not limited to theists.

One friend has used the phrase "Set is both within and without".
One of my first sources on theistic Satanism said something very similar about Satan and it's a fundamental aspect of my own approach.

Quote
My interpretation of that is sort of like the difference between mathematical Pi written as a subjectively perfect representation versus it only existing in the objective realm as an approximation. The most accurate approximations of Pi probably exist in the large memories of supercomputers of our own design rather than within nature itself.
That's along the lines of my interpretation of Satan when I'm in an atheistic (or merely deistic and autotheistic) mood.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 04:59:02 am by Liu »

Mindmaster

Re: Can one worship Satan and other pantheons?
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2019, 08:19:52 pm »
My understanding of 'worship' is relative to the word 'supplicate', Theistic Satanism or spiritual Satanism is the umbrella term for religious beliefs that consider Satan as an objectively existing supernatural being or force worthy of supplication, with whom individuals may contact, convene and even praise, rather than him being just an archetype, symbol or idea as in LaVeyan Satanism.

The word 'Supplication' means the action of asking or begging for something earnestly or humbly", it deserves attention from the definition in that this is a key difference between Theistic and non-Theistic Satanism. Non-Theistic Satanism/Luciferianism has no supplication involved, does not believe in deities other than archetypal structures, or symbols.

Theistic Satanism really has nothing to do with outsiders to the religion think. Its foundation lies in a direct personal experience of communion with Satan in whatever way that uniquely manifests to the individual. That's it, the end, stop there. We're not Christian's looking for our deity to bail us out of our life problems, or conversely blaming Jehovah for them. Nor, do we think appealing to Satan (who certainly would have better things to do) to intercede on our behalf is productive. We're blessed enough with that bond and require nothing else. Worship also has several meanings, and one of them is simply to honor someone -- that is a main focus of a theistic Satanists practice but it isn't done in the same vein as mainstream religions. Being grateful and being subservient aren't the same thing naturally.

In contrast, theistic Satanism isn't so much about believing anything but rather knowing it directly. It's not so much a faith, at least in the classical understanding of the term, even though there are outward similarities. Anytime someone asks me, "What are your beliefs?" I cringe -- that's missing the point of theistic Satanism entirely. It's not about getting you to think this way or that it's about developing a connection. Whether that's valuable to you or not is something each of us has to answer for ourselves.

I don't particularly see any value to the poo-pooing of supplication either as that method of devotion suits some people's natures more readily and if it achieves the end result (in this case a direct awareness of Satan) then it's all perfectly valid. But, this is just personal tastes insofar as an individual Satanist not something that establishes the quality of one's philosophy or approach.