Author Topic: Do you believe in spirits?  (Read 1101 times)

Kapalika

Do you believe in spirits?
« on: March 03, 2019, 05:11:54 am »
Things outside of us, not just metaphor or a part of your psyche, but independently existing entities that you can interact with?


Are they self aware? What is the limit or capacity of their abilities, both to themselves, the world around them, each other and to us?
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Etu Malku

Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2019, 03:08:50 pm »
No, I do not.
IAMTHATIAMNOT

Liu

Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2019, 03:39:10 pm »
I'm on the fence about it.

I heard of experiences by some people that would be most easily explained by the existence of spirits.

E.g. two people talking to the same spirit about whom they had not talked to each other before and without knowing the other one does also talk to the spirit and later finding out that they were told the same thing by the spirit to a degree of detail that is very unlikely to be chance.

Or someone being able to see a spirit, their roommate walking in who had no idea of them communicating with spirits and nevertheless seeing the spirit as well.

Or the traditional stories of spirits moving physical objects.

Of course I don't know whether any of these stories are true.

And there could also be other supernormal explanations, e.g. unintentional telepathy in the first case, and unintentional telekinesis in the third.

And psychological explanations in combination with chance are also possible, e.g. hallucinations, confirmation bias, ...

As long as my own experiences with spirits don't go beyond "feelings" I have no way of confirming any such claims and consider psychological explanations much more likely.

idgo

Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2019, 03:30:34 am »
Quote
Things outside of us, not just metaphor or a part of your psyche, but independently existing entities that you can interact with?

Things outside of me, absolutely. I haven't figured out whether these things outside myself are "independent" or just internal to others, though. I can see the ways they affect others, and the people being affected will swear up and down that the forces affecting them aren't internal to themselves, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to be self-aware enough to know that for certain. Similarly, just because I don't notice them operating on me or through me, can't be considered any sort of proof about whether or not it's happening.

Personally, when I interact with them, I frame them as forces belonging initially to others but currently "stored" in myself, because that  metaphor gives me an ability to shut them off/out that I prefer. But explaining something in one way that works doesn't guarantee that some other explanation won't also work just as well -- the map is not the territory, etc.


Quote
Are they self aware? What is the limit or capacity of their abilities, both to themselves, the world around them, each other and to us?

I don't know how to tell conclusively whether I'm self-aware, let alone anyone else who definitely has a physical body at the moment, let alone a spirit!

Ditto the "limit or capacity of abilities" thing -- I think the limit or capacity of anything's abilities is highly circumstantial. I can lift a heavier weight if I've been training for a few months than if I've been sitting on the couch... and I'd be able to lift a heavier weight still if I put in a decade of training... but if I don't put in that decade of training, which amount of weight is the "limit or capacity" of what I can lift?

Kapalika

Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2019, 04:56:51 am »
I talk with spirits now and then, I'm actually really adept at spirit magic. I've had them choke me, hold me down, drag me across the room, reveal secrets to me, push people down for me, or do any number of things.


I've had sex with spirits, made deals and had relationships and rivalries. I believe some people may become demons, spirits or ghosts when they die.
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Mindmaster

Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2019, 10:35:10 am »
I don't believe in anything... :D

However, determining whether these are discreet entities or consciousness is just an infinite neural network is impossible for me. It seems to me, from my perspective, a little column a & b.

That being said, it becomes rather silly to think in terms of "that which they can affect" and so on, if that initial statement is true, then the answer is nearly everything. But, we could argue that the same is true of one's own local environment on a smaller scale in relation to oneself. Now, take that self, connect it to all the the others, and theoretically there is no limit in that understanding. Of course, then the me, you, spirit, god, and so on separation becomes a challenging thought.  More of a glass-half empty/full dilemma -- how would you like to look at it and so on? :D

If anything, the on-going debate in LHP circles about this very matter implies the somewhat subtle truth of the thing -- like water, it's willing to take whatever shape of the container you want to place it in. Call it an archetype, a form, an entity, a part of oneself, and strangely enough it fits. Perhaps, my initial statement, in that regard, is closer to the actual truth. :D
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 10:38:12 am by Mindmaster »

idgo

Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2019, 06:32:33 pm »
I don't believe in anything... :D

However, determining whether these are discreet entities or consciousness is just an infinite neural network is impossible for me. It seems to me, from my perspective, a little column a & b.

That being said, it becomes rather silly to think in terms of "that which they can affect" and so on, if that initial statement is true, then the answer is nearly everything. But, we could argue that the same is true of one's own local environment on a smaller scale in relation to oneself. Now, take that self, connect it to all the the others, and theoretically there is no limit in that understanding. Of course, then the me, you, spirit, god, and so on separation becomes a challenging thought.  More of a glass-half empty/full dilemma -- how would you like to look at it and so on? :D


Technically correct, the best kind of correct. However, I'd contend that "truth" aside, it is quite useful to cultivate metaphors which usually accurately predict how easy or difficult a given possible thing will be. To ask it on the level of abstraction of your reply, "is it easier / does it facilitate accomplishing more with less effort to use a model of the world in which spirits work independently from individuals, versus one in which they're a psychological phenomenon of the individuals themselves?". Only for an answer of "I've tested it and can ascertain no difference" is it really fair to jump immediately to pointing out the overarching inapplicability of trying to pick any one of several mutually exclusive worldviews.

Quote
If anything, the on-going debate in LHP circles about this very matter implies the somewhat subtle truth of the thing -- like water, it's willing to take whatever shape of the container you want to place it in. Call it an archetype, a form, an entity, a part of oneself, and strangely enough it fits. Perhaps, my initial statement, in that regard, is closer to the actual truth. :D

To which of the many things discussed above do you here refer? (yes, there's a level on which it doesn't matter, but then again there are also levels on which knowing which you meant might allow others to derive some extra meaning from your post)

Kapalika

Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2019, 05:09:11 am »
Well I've made it clear before in some places (like in my TIS article) that functionally it overall isn't worth debating their independent existence, if they are "real" or not. However knowledge and belief are distinct, and while I lean towards believing it's a bit more than just something that our minds generate, I don't know, and i'm okay with that, I guess.

Still fun to hear different people's perspectives and experiences though hence why I made the topic :)
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Olive

Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2019, 06:41:53 pm »
I tend to agree with that Kapalika. I have paradigms that are materialist and thus can not justify the belief in the independent existence of these spirits. However, I’ve had so many experiences with beings and entities which seemingly act independently of me that it no longer matters what their true ontological status is.

It’s not a matter of belief. Phenomenologically, spirits exist and do interact with humans. Most adepts can (probably) learn to perceive and deal with them.

Even at the level of animism, talk of spirits is not necessarily nonsensical. Forests, trees, animals, people, and ancestors all have a kind of “personality” and influence that is easily described in terms of “the spirit of X”.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 06:48:10 pm by Olive »
    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Ravvy

Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2019, 03:18:43 pm »
I don't believe in spirits but i know they exist. I was active for years in a kardecian medium group. Was ok at that time.

skotadi

Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2019, 10:56:50 pm »
New to this form... and new to studying the LHP.

I saw this and thought it would be great to respond.  In my case I do believe in spirits.  But I don't expect anyone without a direct experience to believe.  My first experience was when I was young, and it had nothing to do with anything I was involved in.  At the time I was a child of an evangelical minister and I was a believer... I wasn't involved in anything occult at that time.  But something phenomenal occurred as a form of spirit communication. 

That event caused me to search for spiritual truth in a variety of avenues.  In some of these, my experience of spirit phenomena was shared with those with me (two or three witnesses.)  In most cases it was during solo occult work. 

I used to try and "prove" this to others, but in the end I realized, "why should anyone believe me?  They weren't there.  So really they should be skeptical."  While I'm new to this philosophy, perhaps my feelings would be similar to not expecting another relating to their Subjective Universe to accept my results from my subjective universe... unless I have the concepts wrong.... :)

But yes, I do believe in external spirits, due to my own personal experience. 

Xepera maSet

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Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2019, 12:27:49 am »
I do. I grew up in what I'm pretty sure was a haunted house, and I worked a movie theater projection booth on the reservation that was extremely active with a lot of confirmed unexplained events.

"Do not try to make the sun rise by self-sacrifice,  but wait in confidence for the dawn, and enjoy the pleasure of the night."
- Crowley

Onyx

Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2019, 11:39:00 am »
Dr. Aquino used terms like Platonic Forms (or First Principles) when talking about the Prince of Darkness, which IIRC Dr. Flowers once defined as something like the Prime Initiator of Isolate Self-Aware Intelligence.

One of my friends has used terms like "Manifold Reflections of the Prince of Darkness", and the "Set Within (Black Flame), the Set Without", etc. Going with that logic, I think the apprehension of a god/deity/demon is a particularization of the Black Flame within, deigned by something external because I don't remember myself giving rise to my own self-consciousness.

Nevertheless, it's an interesting (and rather mysterious) subject to discuss.

Etu Malku

Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2019, 05:12:14 pm »
My understanding of 'spirits' can be found in an article I wrote on our WordPress page.
https://heraldofthedawn.wordpress.com/2018/06/19/summoning-demons/
IAMTHATIAMNOT

Deidre

Re: Do you believe in spirits?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2019, 06:00:08 pm »
Maybe. But, not the kind you can ''conjure'' up or ''awaken'' in a seance.
"Don't look for riches, look for rich experiences." - Lucian Black