Author Topic: Actual magical spells and such  (Read 611 times)

Kapalika

Actual magical spells and such
« on: January 28, 2019, 05:31:21 am »
Well I didn't realize that I was working with a different (although not noninclusive of what people were saying) definition of greater magic or magic in general.

So does anyone here actually believe in like rituals and magic and spells and such to in some "spooky" way (supernatural, preternatural, just not "normal" or natural or scientifically understood or understandable at this moment) way of affecting people and events without them knowing about the ritual or spell?

To point towards *some* source, LaVey said in TSB that those who scoff at destruction rituals are the most ssupetible to being killed by it as they prepare no defenses.

Therefore, never attempt to convince the skeptic upon whom you wish to place a curse. Allow him to scoff. To enlighten him would lessen your chance of success. Listen with benign assurance as he laughs at your magic, knowing his days are filled with turmoil all the while. If he is despicable enough, by Satan's grace, he might even die - laughing!

I also in the other topic posted the definition from TSB:

The change in situations or events in accordance with one's will, which would, using normally accepted methods, be unchangable." This admittedly leaves a large area for personal interpretation. It will be said, by some, that these instructions and procedures are nothing more than applied psychology, or scientific fact, called by "magical" terminology - until they arrive at a passage in the text that is "based on no known scientific finding".

While he does bring up the interpretation bit, there are little snippets here and there that indicate something magical in the old sense of the word, spooky, if you will, is going on that isn't just based on yourself but seriously projecting your will into the world as a literal force that affects events and people whether they know or believe it or not.

And this is my own definition from my site:

"7. Beings may engage in lesser or greater magic. Lesser magic is the focused intent of symbolism and action to affect the world through normal means. Greater magic is the focused intent of symbolism and spiritual ability to affect the world through preternatural means."

And for ages Diane Vera's site has had in various places information on "real magic" so to speak. Even Venus Satanas's book on Satanic prayer says that it's meant to help you (although more so as as supplement to action) but it's always given me this "there is more to it than just psychology" feel with how she describes Satan as a "force". I'd assume this "force" is directed by the Satanist and that it's not merely metaphor, given how she styles herself and from personal talks with her about spells she has done.

I've also talked with many other theistic Satanists and the like who do believe in these kinds of spells ect. snd it's a pretty accepted belief from what I can tell. So what I'm asking is... does anyone here actually believe in this or practice this? I personally have over the years but am very reserved about it, even being skeptical at times but more or less settled on it being real just me not being the greatest at it (lol).

So do you? Believe in this kind of magic?
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Onyx

Re: Actual magical spells and such
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2019, 06:16:15 am »
I prefer the term "supranormal", instead of "supernatural". To paraphrase, Anton LaVey said something like to use a tool effectively, one needn't have analysed all of the component parts first.

For example, one can use a drill press or table saw without understanding the electromagnetism of the motors or mechanical engineering. Likewise, we can utilize the Forces of Darkness while we gain further understanding of them.

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Re: Actual magical spells and such
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2019, 02:47:27 pm »
Yeah I've done destruction rituals and such. It's probably the only thing of actual power LaVey made, and it works!

"Do not try to make the sun rise by self-sacrifice,  but wait in confidence for the dawn, and enjoy the pleasure of the night."
- Crowley

Liu

Re: Actual magical spells and such
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2019, 03:23:49 pm »
Well I didn't realize that I was working with a different (although not noninclusive of what people were saying) definition of greater magic or magic in general.

So does anyone here actually believe in like rituals and magic and spells and such to in some "spooky" way (supernatural, preternatural, just not "normal" or natural or scientifically understood or understandable at this moment) way of affecting people and events without them knowing about the ritual or spell?
I'm on the fence about it.
I have heard people tell stuff that can pretty much only be explained by such means (or by a very high amount of chance), but who knows whether what people tell is true.
One of my main motivations of practicing that would be actually to find out whether it works.

Quote
To point towards *some* source, LaVey said in TSB that those who scoff at destruction rituals are the most ssupetible to being killed by it as they prepare no defenses.

Therefore, never attempt to convince the skeptic upon whom you wish to place a curse. Allow him to scoff. To enlighten him would lessen your chance of success. Listen with benign assurance as he laughs at your magic, knowing his days are filled with turmoil all the while. If he is despicable enough, by Satan's grace, he might even die - laughing!
Not convinced. Even if there is some mechanism to magick that makes it more effective against the spiritually defenseless, so to speak, there also is another mechanism that works in the opposite direction, namely that of nocebo, of something harming you because you believe it will, and that has been scientifically proven to exist.

I would suppose one of the reasons for the multitude of definitions is the multitude of beliefs of what exists or not. So I'd rather first provide some categorization of things that may be called magick, independent of whether or not they do in fact exist.

Area of intended effect:
Own psyche
Own body
Non-physical entities (that are not part of one's own psyche)
vs.
Other people
Other objects

Mechanism:
Using only one's own psyche (including focus, will etc. or even physical actions that have only an influence on one's own psyche)
vs.
Doing some physical actions that have an actual physical or psychological effect related to one's aim (including doing physical actions that have an effect on other people or non-physical entities)

Above the vs. in each category are aspects normally deemed high magick, below those normally deemed low magick. But also combinations of high aspects from one category with low of another are possible, and that's when definitions tend to clash.

Some people also add the dichotomy of white vs. black magick.
Some options:
- white is what harms none and black is what does (or any other moral dichotomy)
- it depends on the belief system of the practitioner whether they practice white or black magick
- they depend on the area of effect as defined above, but which is white and which is black depends on whom you ask - each one tends to call the high area their favorite colour.

Olive

Re: Actual magical spells and such
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2019, 04:03:52 pm »
If I’m honest, I don’t fully understand it. Many curses have been revealed to me by my patron, but I’ve not used them. I’ve had no cause.

But very strange things often start happening when I dive deeper into my practice, and many of them have to do with physical realities. Not just synchronicity type stuff, but actually affecting the outcome of material events.

We can share our spooky stories, if you like. I certainly have a few, but I don’t want to throw them out for critical examination if that’s not the aim of this thread.



@Liu

I want to do a more complete write up on this at some point, but in brief I will give you my take on white magic, which I find delightful.

I think we agree on standard definitions of black magic at least around here, but I’ll quickly describe them because each category mirrors the other.

Lesser Black Magic - Using understanding of the mind or mundane methods to cause other people to act or feel or think in accordance with your personal will. (Deception, Manipulation, Emotional control, Crafting one’s own appearance to have a certain impact, many other related things which are not all totally insidious.)

Greater Black Magic - Recreation and redefinition of the Self to the highest degree. Directed Self Evolution. Altering one’s Will, strengthening it, embodying it, and being transformed by it.


Lesser White Magic - Using understanding of the mind or mundane methods to heal and deprogram other people. I.e emotionally healing them, removing the manipulations of others in them which they have internalized, giving them peace, helping them deal with their pain, even medicine is pretty much a mundane LWM method. Some of the methods overlap with LBM, but the aim is to restore wellbeing rather than asserting the personal will.

Greater White Magic - The use of internal alchemical practices to purify the Self and the Will. That is, purifying the elements (Practical Responsibilities, Emotional well-being, Intellection and Anxieties, and the Will) and development of the spirit in such a way that less and less energy expenditure or attention is required, and instead using that potential to enter into the most rarefied states of bliss, freedom, and peace. It is like GBM in that it deals with Will and Self, but the focus is on the excellence of being rather than becoming. Therefore the development of the virtues is also an act of GWM. (So someone practicing GBM may seek to draw more and more out of himself [increasing productivity] while someone GWM seeks to pull more and more attention back within himself [increasing freedom])

It seems to me that GBM is perhaps more varied and the outcome is always dependent on the object of the Will, which differs and produces different ends.

Whereas with GWM, well - ’Many paths lead up the mountain, but at the top we all look at the same bright Moon.’ (Ikkyu Sojun)


I hope someone finds that useful. But I don’t wanna derail this thread too much, so I’ll save more detailed discussion for now.
    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Liu

Re: Actual magical spells and such
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2019, 04:46:29 pm »
Lesser White Magic - Using understanding of the mind or mundane methods to heal and deprogram other people. I.e emotionally healing them, removing the manipulations of others in them which they have internalized, giving them peace, helping them deal with their pain, even medicine is pretty much a mundane LWM method. Some of the methods overlap with LBM, but the aim is to restore wellbeing rather than asserting the personal will.
So, it's lesser white magick if the outcome benefits someone else more than it does yourself?
I.e. if you practice magick for payment or help out a friend?

The fun thing is, I also encountered the definition that white magick would be limited to influencing oneself, because only then there could be consent (not like that would be true) - anything affecting others would therefore be black magick.
But I kinda doubt we would find many here adhering to that definition.

Quote
Greater White Magic - The use of internal alchemical practices to purify the Self and the Will. That is, purifying the elements (Practical Responsibilities, Emotional well-being, Intellection and Anxieties, and the Will) and development of the spirit in such a way that less and less energy expenditure or attention is required, and instead using that potential to enter into the most rarefied states of bliss, freedom, and peace. It is like GBM in that it deals with Will and Self, but the focus is on the excellence of being rather than becoming. Therefore the development of the virtues is also an act of GWM. (So someone practicing GBM may seek to draw more and more out of himself [increasing productivity] while someone GWM seeks to pull more and more attention back within himself [increasing freedom])
If any I would have associated the colours with the opposite goals, actually, i.e. white with productivity and self-transformation and black with freedom. Yours also makes sense in a way.
But in any case, I wouldn't have made such a dichotomy anyway - both sides are steps in self-development that should be pursued simultaneously, not to the expense of the other.

Olive

Re: Actual magical spells and such
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2019, 04:55:15 pm »
The thing about LWM is that while it is indeed primarily focused on helping another, in time that may also help you and many others. The gift that keeps on giving. :D


And yeah, I use them both, and they can be used in tandem. But each provides a sensible categorization for any particular method or aim which is still useful for practical and theoretical studies in Magic.


There is a maxim I’ve developed that I’ve just realized fits very well in this situation. The parentheses are explanatory and not part of the base expression.

Restriction (energy expenditure) creates form (identity). [Greater Black Magic]

Freedom (energy withdrawal) gives vitality (bliss, peace, restoration). [Greater White Magic]
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 05:02:50 pm by Olive »
    Art thou pale for weariness
Of climbing heaven, and gazing on the earth,
     Wandering companionless
Among the stars that have a different birth, -
And ever-changing, like a joyless eye
That finds no object worth its constancy?

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

idgo

Re: Actual magical spells and such
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2019, 05:11:03 pm »
not ... scientifically understood or understandable at this moment

Even conventional psychology has huge "this works but we can't explain why" holes in it. I personally believe that I can form and test a hypothesis for if and to some extent why any phenomenon is observable, and doing so only sometimes impedes the actual effects.

I believe that there are a whole lot of effects that historical traditions and cultures have taken advantage of, often without fully understanding them, which appear nonsensical at first to the modern gaze but can be reliably reproduced when approached appropriately. Science seems to be slowly catching up to these effects, and acts super surprised every time (see http://www.sci-news.com/biology/striped-bodypaintings-blood-sucking-flies-06837.html, https://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/australia/why-these-birds-carry-flames-in-their-beaks.aspx, etc.)

Quote
... affecting people and events without them knowing about the ritual or spell?

A stimulus can affect a human without their being consciously aware of it, or without their attributing its source correctly. For instance, let's say I have a mild allergy to a type of fruit I've never tried before, and thus I'm unaware of that allergy. Let's say my favorite brand of mixed fruit juice changes its formulation to use some of that fruit to which I'm unknowingly allergic. If I eat at a restaurant where I've never eaten before, and drink a bottle of that familiar brand of juice, I will likely feel mildly ill. Perhaps I might not realize I'm ill at all, and simply feel mildly grumpy, and attribute that general malaise to stress from work or some other likely-seeming factor. Or perhaps I will notice that my discomfort appears to stem from something I consumed, in which case I'll almost certainly blame the food from the unfamiliar restaurant long before suspecting a change to the familiar drink.


I tend to wrap these thoughts in science-esque jargon more readily than the usual occult terminology, but that's solely a personal preference based on my familiarity with it through consistent exposure. I've picked up the other glosses for saying the exact same things later in life, much like a second language. And just with any second language, I have greater confidence in my ability to express myself with maximum precision in the reference frame with which I'm best acquainted.

Liu

Re: Actual magical spells and such
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2019, 06:06:08 pm »
The thing about LWM is that while it is indeed primarily focused on helping another, in time that may also help you and many others. The gift that keeps on giving. :D
Pretty much why I wouldn't make a distinction in the first place.

Quote
And yeah, I use them both, and they can be used in tandem. But each provides a sensible categorization for any particular method or aim which is still useful for practical and theoretical studies in Magic.
It is a distinction I haven't given much attention thus far, perhaps I should do so.

Quote
There is a maxim I’ve developed that I’ve just realized fits very well in this situation. The parentheses are explanatory and not part of the base expression.

Restriction (energy expenditure) creates form (identity). [Greater Black Magic]

Freedom (energy withdrawal) gives vitality (bliss, peace, restoration). [Greater White Magic]
Hn, for many things I have the impression that a combination of both would be involved.
E.g. if you want to get rid of an addiction (i.e. gain freedom from a desire) you may do so by putting energy into redefining your identity accordingly.
If you want to create something (i.e. put energy into something so that it exists), inspiration and motivation flow most freely if you, after some self-restriction to get started, let go of any pressure.

I believe that there are a whole lot of effects that historical traditions and cultures have taken advantage of, often without fully understanding them, which appear nonsensical at first to the modern gaze but can be reliably reproduced when approached appropriately. Science seems to be slowly catching up to these effects, and acts super surprised every time (see http://www.sci-news.com/biology/striped-bodypaintings-blood-sucking-flies-06837.html, https://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/australia/why-these-birds-carry-flames-in-their-beaks.aspx, etc.)
Cool, thanks for sharing!

Quote
Quote
... affecting people and events without them knowing about the ritual or spell?

A stimulus can affect a human without their being consciously aware of it, or without their attributing its source correctly. For instance, let's say I have a mild allergy to a type of fruit I've never tried before, and thus I'm unaware of that allergy. Let's say my favorite brand of mixed fruit juice changes its formulation to use some of that fruit to which I'm unknowingly allergic. If I eat at a restaurant where I've never eaten before, and drink a bottle of that familiar brand of juice, I will likely feel mildly ill. Perhaps I might not realize I'm ill at all, and simply feel mildly grumpy, and attribute that general malaise to stress from work or some other likely-seeming factor. Or perhaps I will notice that my discomfort appears to stem from something I consumed, in which case I'll almost certainly blame the food from the unfamiliar restaurant long before suspecting a change to the familiar drink.
True, there can be lots of reasons that we aren't aware of - but that would be mere chance, and not triggered by anyone's intentions working without even that person having an idea how their thoughts would cause any effect.

NEMO 93

Re: Actual magical spells and such
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2019, 07:49:17 pm »
As the boards token Chaos Magician, I'm obviously going to say yes and no.

The survival of sanity in my paradigm is that belief effects reality and not vice versa. However, to test that I've dabbled in Thelema, Enochian, Hinduism, Acosmic Gnosticism, Paganism, and a bunch of homebrew shit.

I believe into magic in that I have been able to conjure visual manifestations (blue light that's common when third eye is open) and intense physical synchronicity. I once crafted a servitor to bring me money and got a 20 dollar bill on the door step outside my room the next day.

All pretty much seems like real magic to me but then I'd ask you to define real magic and fake magic and what the difference is in praxis? And if you're not sure, then just try it out and see for yourself.

Kapalika

Re: Actual magical spells and such
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2019, 10:06:27 pm »
I once crafted a servitor to bring me money and got a 20 dollar bill on the door step outside my room the next day.


Damn I need that lol.
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo