Author Topic: East West LHPs?  (Read 266 times)

Etu Malku

East West LHPs?
« on: January 10, 2019, 02:31:34 am »
Is there such a thing as a Western Left Hand Path?
If so, what is?

Is it different than Eastern Left Hand Paths such as Vamachara and Shaivism?
If so, then how?
IAMTHATIAMNOT

Kapalika

Re: East West LHPs?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2019, 06:21:56 am »
Eastern Left Hand Paths such as Vamachara and Shaivism?

The majority of Shaivism isn't LHP. Vamachara is along with Vamamarga the Sanskrit terms for LHP, not a specific path within it.

The Only difference between Vamachara and Vamamarga is that the former has a slightly ambiguous etymology and connotates femininity.

Vamachara = LHP
Vamamarga = LHP

Is there such a thing as a Western Left Hand Path?
If so, what is?

I've come to use the term "modern LHP" when referring specifically to Satanism and related religious movements.

East-west world dichotomy is artificial. There is too much variation within cultures across entire continents, more so Asia, to compare "East" and "West" in a meaningful way. Plus there is a ton of cross-influence.

For example go to Goa, and there is heavy Portuguese influence and half of everyone is Catholic. Other areas have British influences. Go out in the country side, some villages haven't changed much in thousands of years. Or look at South Africa and it's Dutch influences particularly around Cape Town.

Even before European colonization In India there was very distinct cultures. India has over a billion people, Asia has 4.46 billion people.

The only real collective difference between "western" and "eastern" religions is that the west got dominated by Christianity and Islam, while Asia kept it's religious diversity. Hence to compare religion in this west vs east way is apples to oranges.

Look at Islam, an ostensibly western religion and yet some of it's largest populations are in Pakistan, India and Indonesia. Islamic influences are very much part of the culture of northern regions of India due to many historical invasions. You can't even separate Classical Hindustani music from centuries of "western" influence and most of the main 7 note thaats all are identical to established church modes in the West.

So the only universal difference between Satanism and related religions and Asian originating religious sects that are LHP is when they formed, hence modern vs ancient/traditional. We even see the ease of modern LHP and Hindu or Buddhist systems merged not by multiple people on this forum who take from both. I've also noticed an increasing amount of this happen over the years, but even before people like me you had Schreck adopting Tantric Buddhism.

The evidence of the ease of modern and traditional LHP working together is all there, and it makes perfect sense; modern LHP was inspired by ancient LHP so why wouldn't they work together in many instances?

If so, then how?

By splitting hairs.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 06:25:34 am by Kapalika »
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Little Beast

Re: East West LHPs?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2019, 10:52:37 am »
When I was a kid, I got taken by my school to the "big city". It had a fancy resturant called a McDonalds. I was easily the poorest of my class, so I ordered some chips - but since I was somewhere fancy - I also ordered french fries. When they only gave my chips, I threw their stupid plastic serving thingo into the face of the "waitress" and verbally abused her horribly with the utmost gusto of every 13 year old living in the 80s.

Connect the goddamn dots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSEYGsk6KTM&start_radio=1&list=RDXSEYGsk6KTM
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 10:54:19 am by Little Beast »
I'll be a thorn in your side,
'Til you die
I'll be a thorn in your side
For All Ways

- Chvrches - We Sink

idgo

Re: East West LHPs?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2019, 02:28:56 am »
For purposes of this discussion, what's your standard for qualifying any belief system as a LHP?

Additionally, how do you personally determine whether a belief system is Eastern or Western?

Only with that context could anyone hope to offer an answer you might find useful.

Frater Sisyphus

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Re: East West LHPs?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2019, 04:07:30 am »
For purposes of this discussion, what's your standard for qualifying any belief system as a LHP?

Additionally, how do you personally determine whether a belief system is Eastern or Western?

Only with that context could anyone hope to offer an answer you might find useful.

That's the thing though isn't it.

I'd classify Islam, Orthodox Judaism, Hinduism, traditional Buddhism, Chinese religion and so forth, to be the most Eastern religions there are.
Then mainstream Christianity, non-orthodox Judaism, most modern Occultism, etc to be Western.

It's not quite a value-judgement thing but there are fundamental differences in world view, approach and understanding between the West and East, well conventionally.

I think when it comes to the Western LHP, it is generally has more oppositional traits than Eastern LHP's. A lot of the distinction comes from non-material and magical-realist traits that tend to be absent to much of the Western LHP. The Eastern LHP is more predicated on a specific approach to reaching a goal, rather than a necessary objective stance (seeing how the individual is emphasized by both the RHP and LHP), seeing the pluralist necessity (although it's not universal among all Eastern LHP's but many). Drama still happens though, whether Western or Eastern.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 04:09:14 am by Frater Sisyphus »


The universe is a speck

Kapalika

Re: East West LHPs?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2019, 05:42:33 am »
Part of the reason I oppose the East/West LHP dichotomy is because it's in my mind just another way to make a "us versus them" mentality.

It's often used I think by some types of people as a way to marginalize forms of Left hand Path that existed before the most modern incarnations. It's partisan, religious propaganda. It's just a pathetic excuse to try to claim that other forms of the LHP are "really" RHP.

When the term is used in that way it's basically a tool to try to promote a "one true way" to the Left Hand Path. It reminds me very much of how the Church of Satan says that only their version of atheistic Satanism is "real Satanism".

That's the thing though isn't it.

I'd classify Islam, Orthodox Judaism, Hinduism, traditional Buddhism, Chinese religion and so forth, to be the most Eastern religions there are.
Then mainstream Christianity, non-orthodox Judaism, most modern Occultism, etc to be Western.

This is part of my main criticism of the East/West dichotomy when it comes to LHP; it's based on something other than geography.

Islam was well into parts of Spain and Africa so it's very western. At the same time Islam penetrated Asia much more than Christianity ever has, while Christianity dominates the Americas. Judaism has NO penetration into the East, and quite a lot culturally and otherwise into Europe and North America. It doesn't make sense to call something "western or eastern" when the distinction between the groups has little to do with geography.

Quote
I think when it comes to the Western LHP, it is generally has more oppositional traits than Eastern LHP's.

I find it really misleading to characterize the traits of distinct religious traditions as homogeneous based on their geographic origins. There might be certain overarching similarities between a lot of them, but you could say that of most religion across all continents of the world.

It comes back to the problem of generalizations, and how useful they really are particularly when faced with prominent counter examples.

I just don't see any useful function for the terms. Again, I've proposed the term "ancient LHP" or "traditional LHP", along with the term "modern LHP" as a better distinction, but that distinction only really works when speaking without trying to so concretely define them as "always this".

Additionally, what is actually refered to as LHP and how we as modern people tend to view it, could actually apply to many indigenous religions from Africa, to the Americas and beyond. At this point we can't really put it into West or East, and my proposed terms fit a lot better with traditional covering anything that isn't rooted into something post-christian.

Quote
A lot of the distinction comes from non-material and magical-realist traits that tend to be absent to much of the Western LHP. The Eastern LHP is more predicated on a specific approach to reaching a goal, rather than a necessary objective stance (seeing how the individual is emphasized by both the RHP and LHP), seeing the pluralist necessity (although it's not universal among all Eastern LHP's but many). Drama still happens though, whether Western or Eastern.

I'm not sure what you are saying by non-material or magical-realist, I assume you mean some form of idealism here.

https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo