Author Topic: Satan as nature  (Read 216 times)

Kapalika

Satan as nature
« on: January 05, 2019, 03:44:10 am »
Human nature, essence of yourself, the source of self. ect

I think it's an extension of Satan representing carnality, the animal side of man.

Of course, each of us are different as people but at the same time some things about humans is pretty universal such as a communal need or a need for intellectual engagement, a need for love (of some sort) and a need for entertainment. So likewise I think something could be said about universal or near universal traits among humans as to what Satan at the core represents. Some of these traits also may too be shared with all or most other life, or of nature in general.

To me, Satan as life can be summed up as an extension of Satan as nature, which being Opposition is the counter-balance, that which has resistance or friction and is the underpinning of natural laws. Life is how this plays out when anti-entropy and reproduction comes into play. Life such as us is when self-awareness emerges. I have a lot more thoughts on the topic but just wanted a primer for a more in depth discussion, since there are too many facets of this to adequately cover as an intro.

And it's of all those various levels that I am asking your thoughts on. Satan as the nature of you (both personal and impersonal), the nature of man, the nature of life and of nature of nature.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 03:53:17 am by Kapalika »
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My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Xepera maSet

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Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2019, 06:22:17 am »
Are you saying "Satan = Nature"?

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that I may traverse the sky!"

Behold Set, the Prince of Darkness, He of Two Faces, Soul of the Heavenly Serpent. I am Set the Separator, who Contends Against Osiris for Eternity. I have Come Into Being Like Set. I Am King!


Inlustratus

Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2019, 08:00:37 am »
To me it sounds like Kapalika is saying that "Satan = Shadow" (the Jung archetype), as the shadows represents the animal (natural) side and the source of both creative and destructive energies. At least that's how I'd interpret what she said. As an archetypal Luciferian being more and more inspired by chaos-gnostic Satanism, I see the gods as different aspects of us and because most see Satan and Lucifer as different beings (while I see them as different forces with the same purpose but completing them differently, as two faces of the same coin) they could both represent the shadow as creative and destructive forces, as our natural, animalistic and "destructive" side and the enlightened, potent and creative side. I haven't read too much Jung and I hope this made sense, but that's just me.
*scary satanic text*

Kapalika

Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2019, 09:37:29 am »
Are you saying "Satan = Nature"?

An overly simply explanation would be that nature is of Satan. It's on many levels of nature. But...

To me it sounds like Kapalika is saying that "Satan = Shadow" (the Jung archetype), as the shadows represents the animal (natural) side and the source of both creative and destructive energies. At least that's how I'd interpret what she said.

...Also this. It is particularly the dark/shadow side, the animating force that creates or destroys. We could see Satan as that which acts upon existence, it as "nature without action" being in itself more considered inert. However I would Satan is also that which is inert, as that is the opposition to that which is change. A triad of preservation, destruction and creation.

So the root of nature is Opposition. Nature is predicated on the fundamental essence of Satan as Opposition.

As an archetypal Luciferian being more and more inspired by chaos-gnostic Satanism, I see the gods as different aspects of us and because most see Satan and Lucifer as different beings (while I see them as different forces with the same purpose but completing them differently, as two faces of the same coin) they could both represent the shadow as creative and destructive forces, as our natural, animalistic and "destructive" side and the enlightened, potent and creative side. I haven't read too much Jung and I hope this made sense, but that's just me.

I can see that, but I'm not sure how often it's symbolized like that among Satanists although I've heard it discussed before. For me Lucifer is more archetypal and less deity focused.
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Frater Sisyphus

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Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2019, 12:40:00 am »
This is interesting. For need of further clarification, do you (judging by your syncretic path) see Satan as synonymous with Shiva?


The universe is a speck

Hammerheart

Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2019, 04:40:57 am »
It is my belief that there are two (or more??) sides to human nature. We have our carnal side and our intellectual side. This is pretty much unique to our species. One could say that this carnal side is one with the forces and laws of nature and our intellectual side transcends what we know as nature.

I guess that is a Luciferian standpoint. I think it is an interesting question as to what nature (as in our environment and as well as our carnal side) means to Luciferians.

Etu Malku

Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2019, 11:10:09 am »
I avoided commenting here as I am not a Satanist, but I see others commenting who are not, so here goes.

I find there is one related aspect found among every species, the aspect of survival. However, nature a.k.a. the objective universe is hard at work from the moment of our biological inception looking for ways to destroy us. I find the objective universe to be our nemesis, we all do things to attempt to thwart this force of entropy like diet, exercise, meta mind exercises, etc.

Objective reality is universally accepted by many faiths and philosophies as an illusion, and nowhere is this illusion stronger than in Perennial Philosophy, the philosophy that that all the world's 'RHP' religions share a single, universal doctrine. This doctrine posits that the highest good that human life can achieve is through the union with a Supreme Being / Energy of the Universe. The way in which this is achieved is through the deception of one's conscious awareness into believing that one has been accepted by this Supreme Being / Energy otherwise known as the objective universe.

The Western LHP does not take this stance, the objective universe is seen as it plainly is, a non-conscious, unintelligent memetic mechanism composed of Time, Space & Matter. To absolve one's self into this is antithetic to the Western LHP goals of individuation and autotheism.

To become More than Animal, more than Human is our goal . . .
IAMTHATIAMNOT

Kapalika

Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2019, 03:04:20 pm »
This is interesting. For need of further clarification, do you (judging by your syncretic path) see Satan as synonymous with Shiva?

Short answer:

Kind of. Technically the physical Universe itself is Shakti. Shiva is that which causes Shakti to be the way it is, and Shakti is kind of like an extension of Shiva. Maybe a better way to put it, Shakti is that which Shiva acts on or as.

Satan, would be the animating principle. It is the source of the split that is the subjective (Shiva) and the objective (Shakti). Likewise, once they are split, they seek to reunite, because Satan always counteracts (opposes) the current status. The key difference between the reunion and the original status as one is that after the reunion individualized streams of consciousness are maintained despite it's nondual nature. This is one of the defining differences between Kashmir Shaivism and other nondual sects in Hinduism.

I found that Kashmir Shaivism weirdly was missing a third deity in the ShivaShakti endpoint, since it's otherwise so focused on triads and trinities. Adding Satan not only made sense, but it in my view makes the whole system much more cohesive. Although it would be more accurate to say that I added Shiva and Shakti to my existing Satanic model when I converted to Hinduism, it ended up just fitting together perfectly.

Below I can try to make a venn diagram:



The big circle is Satan, and the two smaller circles Shakti and Shiva. So let's say... 80% the same? Something like that.

More details (optional to read):

All have aspects to them that are totally separate from the other, but yet with a lot of overlap. Dualism would have none of the circles overlapping, and monism would have all the circles totally overlapping. The nondualism here is that which eschews the total/dual nature of either of those extremes.

Hence (sorry finally getting to it!) Satan is, in my beliefs, the fundamental nature of reality, the physical Universe as we know it, the very essence of individualization, and also that which makes it all work together. There are also intermittent levels and also levels that are caused by Satan but are not 100% it anymore. Which makes sense, since it's Oppositional nature would eventually oppose even it's status as being everything. It is the part of Shiva that is not Satan 100% that allows us as individuals to exist.

When I speak of primal chaos (which I alluded to in T.I.S. IV) I refer to something residing in the part of Satan that is totally by itself, not overlapping with Shiva or Shakti. What percisely else is there, I've not exactly figured out.

The parts of physical reality that are not 100% Satan I would say is the deity Leviathan, whom I believe is a very Lovecraft/Eldritch esque type of being. When others talk about acosmic chaos, this is what i think of based on how they describe it (although as I've attested I think it's still part of the physical Universe, perhaps I should call it the Preternatural realm) Weirdly, Leviathan is also in my mind an entity, perhaps another relic of it's origins in Satan, opposing it's objective nature in the same way that we opposed the objective nature of the physical universe by evolving into self aware and conscious individuals. Also I kind of often seem to get the sense that Set as Setians talk about it, might be from this realm.

So the Leviathan aspect would be part of Shakti, but not part of Satan. We as Shiva have parts that are truly itself, and a large part that is us and Satan, and a part that is all three.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 03:06:21 pm by Kapalika »
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Kapalika

Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2019, 03:28:49 pm »
I avoided commenting here as I am not a Satanist, but I see others commenting who are not, so here goes.

As long as it's something respectful and detailed like this, I don't really have a problem despite any disagreements.

I find there is one related aspect found among every species, the aspect of survival. However, nature a.k.a. the objective universe is hard at work from the moment of our biological inception looking for ways to destroy us. I find the objective universe to be our nemesis, we all do things to attempt to thwart this force of entropy like diet, exercise, meta mind exercises, etc.

I wouldn't attribute that kind of intent, or really any intent to the physical Universe itself. The Universe wasn't particularly designed for life as far as I can tell. This makes sense to me because the Oppositional nature of Satan would eek out some thriving life despite that it wasn't particularly designed for it.

To me, it's the Oppositional nature of Satan that allows life to fight for survival, even if it's also the Oppositional nature that set up the situation where we have to in the first place. At the same time I think that our inception has to be mutually inclusive due to the nature of locality so I don't see this function as something that is our nemesis. On the contrary, it was necessary. To have individualized objects and then later conscious beings, you first need to have locality, a position in space and time. To do that, you have to spread out energy, meaning we have to go and get it... hence survival.

To become More than Animal, more than Human is our goal . . .

This sounds kinda transhumanist to me, but as a Satanist, Satan is the positive aspects of our animal and human side. I value that. All in moderation, as they say (including moderation itself!).
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Frater Sisyphus

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Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2019, 06:13:03 am »
@Kapalika Just read your post there. I gotta say, it's quite a fascinating form of LHP syncretism. Your interpretation of Satan seems almost like an anti-Brahman (or counter-Brahman). Would you considered the Atman as traditionally understood through Saivism (and even Vedanta) to be more illusory in contrast to Satan? in a sense, I guess, were the individual self is more of a projection in which the nature of Satan (or 'satan of nature') is the defining ultimate quality. (I kind of missed if there is any known specific there, between Shiva and the individual mind, so to speak.)
Anyway, keep it up  :)


The universe is a speck

Kapalika

Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2019, 08:00:12 am »
Thanks! Late night reply but trying my best here.

Some rambling about the view of atman in Shaivism and Vedanta:

off the top of my head...

Atman as understood in Kashmir Shaivism/Trika is distinct from most other Shaiva sects, as well as from Vedanta. Vedanta says that atman is existence, consciousness and bliss at it's most realized. Kashmir Shaivism adds the quality of doership and individualization. A comparison to another Shaivite Tantric sect, Shaiva Siddhanta, also has individualization but not as Shiva itself but as a distinct Shiva. It's actually similar to Kashmir Shaivism (If I understand it correctly, granted I've not looked in depth). This isn't surprising since Kashmir Shaivism supersedes it in terms of the lineage of theological development (or at least we believe as such). Honestly at times though that distinction on that specific point though feels like semantics but I'm not sure.

Most popular Shiva worship is actually puranic or vedic and would refer to one of the orthodox schools of philosophy on the view of atman specifically (Vedanta and Yoga being two talked about here). The other main Shiva worshipers that come to mind are Yogis but of course they would default to orthodox Yoga's view but I'm not terribly sure on their details either.

Aghori and other LHP Shaiva sects have the same beliefs to the self as we do, but they pretty much all share common roots with Kashmir Shaivism via the Kapalikas (or are even a subschool of Kashmir Shaivism directly).

Then there is also the lingayat, but I've read contradictory information about their lineage and know almost nothing about them. They seem to stem from early Rudra worship from what I think most sources say.

Actual answer:

No I don't think that atman (the soul) is any degree of illusionary even compared to Satan. I would say that individual atmans emanate from Satan. Kashmir Shaivism holds the physical world to be concrete, unlike schools such as Vedanta that hold it to be an illusion to be folded upon and discarded. This means that the atman is just as real as Satan even if it is a product of the Universe (as I believe). The quality of Satan is the fundamental quality I'd say. Imagine it like a house, Satan is the ground it is built on. The you are the room and the body is the walls and roof. Or maybe the Universe is the walls. Something like that. But then you become the ground too and can change the walls and cieling at will. Okay this isn't the best metaphor.

Also if it makes it any easier, in terms of the "self" we can hold Satan and Shiva to be identical when interpreting Kashmir Shaiva texts. Perhaps I could say that Shiva is that part of Satan that is the Supreme subjective self.

Individual mind in a nonrealized state is citta, which is still Shiva, just in limited form. Citta literally means "mind". But as the Shiva Sutras says "Cittam Mantra", the mind transforms itself into the universal, supreme subjective I-consciousness of Shiva through becoming the Mantra as the means. The stream of consciousness is maintained and identity is maintained.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 08:10:13 am by Kapalika »
https://kapalika.com

My religion is Satanism & Kashmir Shaivism via Vāmācāra

"We have none but evidence for the prosecution [against Satan] and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French." ... "We may not pay him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents." - Mark Twain
"God and the individual are one. To realize this is the essence of Shaivism." - Swami Lakshmanjoo

Frater Sisyphus

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Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2019, 08:57:02 am »
@Kapalika Thanks for your answer  :)


The universe is a speck

Liu

Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2019, 05:59:06 pm »
The parts of physical reality that are not 100% Satan I would say is the deity Leviathan, whom I believe is a very Lovecraft/Eldritch esque type of being. When others talk about acosmic chaos, this is what i think of based on how they describe it (although as I've attested I think it's still part of the physical Universe, perhaps I should call it the Preternatural realm) Weirdly, Leviathan is also in my mind an entity, perhaps another relic of it's origins in Satan, opposing it's objective nature in the same way that we opposed the objective nature of the physical universe by evolving into self aware and conscious individuals. Also I kind of often seem to get the sense that Set as Setians talk about it, might be from this realm.

So the Leviathan aspect would be part of Shakti, but not part of Satan. We as Shiva have parts that are truly itself, and a large part that is us and Satan, and a part that is all three.
Weird.
I would have equated acosmic chaos with that which is only Satan and not Shakti (and possibly also not Shiva).

About Leviathan, I normally associate that with the subconscious - which I would tend to consider a part of Shakti as it's outside of our conscious awareness and the part of the mind closest to our physicality, but dunno, I normally would put pretty much anything except for pure awareness into Shakti's realm anyway.

Etu Malku

Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2019, 07:06:17 pm »
I've since surrendered to putting forth my ideas regarding East/West LHP philosophy, it never goes well and it never concludes. That said, I want to post this recent article of mine which I hope is relative to the discussion in some way or another.

The Way of Nature is the Way of Death

Human consciousness will not evolve unconsciously, which is the way of Nature. Human consciousness can only evolve consciously, and only according to the processes of its own nature. To go the way of Nature (a.k.a. Objective Universe) which is unconscious on a biological level and nothing more than a mindless, mechanism, we will cease to evolve as individuals. The way of Nature makes us fat and lethargic, clogs our arteries and persistently works to stop our metabolism. The way of Nature instills a tendency in us to cease examining one's self and to outwardly project all of one's unconscious internal demons (the Jungian Shadow Self).

Enter the Black Flame

Fortunately, we have a self‑aware consciousness that gives us the ability to live for ourselves. We don't have to follow along with what Nature may or may not decide for us as a result of an inexorable, unconscious mechanism that it is. We can choose (something nature cannot do) to go AGAINST THE GRAIN!

The Way of the Black Flame is the way of conscious self-awareness giving us the ability to alter, determine, and direct our own course in a way no other species is capable of on earth. We are not at the mercy of Nature's wrath, we can stand apart from this unconscious, mechanism and go against its flow, create and reinvent ourselves. The Way of Nature is the way of least resistance, which may appeal to the herd mentality, however, consciousness is born and evolved through the path of difficulty and challenge. It will only develop and be made more conscious through conscious effort. Nature cannot do this for us, it can only make us more unconscious.
___________________________________________

Etu Malku V° HH☿D
IAMTHATIAMNOT

Liu

Re: Satan as nature
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2019, 03:34:50 pm »
That's some interesting food for thought!

I agree in the conclusion, but I'm not that sure about the arguments.

I would not necessarily say that what you call acting "consciously" is the actual mechanism behind that "unnatural" potential of humans. Sure it has to do with mindfulness, with putting thought into one's decisions instead of just reacting. But I would rather call that the ability of self-reflection - I am very unsure whether it has anything to do with consciousness in and of itself, and not rather more with using certain mental facilities.

Dunno whether we disagree on terminology or on metaphysics.