Author Topic: I feel like I hate dependence too much. Advice?  (Read 109 times)

Dragonchild

I feel like I hate dependence too much. Advice?
« on: December 04, 2018, 01:26:44 pm »
I wasn't sure what forum to post this in as it is related to things that led me to lhp, but it's more an ongoing thought pattern that seems to be causing problems in my life. If anything I feel like it holds me back a lot. Somewhere along the way I grew to despise all forms of dependence, as in even the most basic things like dependence on air and food and water. I often won't ask for help until I feel like there's no other option. And I'll thank them and he grateful, but inwardly I have a lot of hang ups about people helping me.

People say asking for help isn't a sign of weakness, that's one of those things people say that's poorly thought out. If I ask for help lifting a heavy object, is it not because I am literally too weak to lift it myself?

In my depressive moments I tend to view dependence as meaning that the world is one big giant parasite that exists as its own host. I mean our bodies are made from stuff of the Earth, and we take more in from other organisms when we eat. Then we're consumed eventually. Then I start questioning what happens when we die and thinking about dust in the wind horribleness.

As you might imagine, these depressing thought patterns make consistently meditating a lot more difficult.

So how exactly do you resolve the fact that true independence may not be possible? or if you don't want complete independence, where do you draw the line? If you take this sort of belief more figuratively and don't even believe it's possible, how do you accept that it's not? It seems like such a horrible thing to me.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 02:02:02 pm by Dragonchild »

Onyx

Re: I feel like I hate dependence too much. Advice?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2018, 03:11:52 pm »
One can be independent in terms of formulating their own opinions, and at the same time work together with others when it makes practical sense to do so.

This post by @Setamontet explains the situation pretty well I think:

http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?topic=518.msg4437#msg4437

idgo

Re: I feel like I hate dependence too much. Advice?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2018, 05:37:07 pm »
We've had a certain amount of conversation on the topic on the Vampyrism board, as well. In my experience, there's 3 broad options in your situation:

* Inaction. Continue feeling mediocre about your state of being.

* Action toward being comfortable with a view of yourself in which you're an isolated entity with depedencies on factors outside yourself.

* Action toward being comfortable with a view of yourself in which you control those parts of the system which contribute to your comfort and success.

I personally lean toward the third option in seeking balance, and out of laziness, I approach it from both sides: I simultaneously curate my dependencies such that I only "really require" things that are easy for me to control, and enhance my control of those things which I "really require".

Depending on where you're at, it may also help to directly and honestly contemplate those circumstances in which you can get neither what you depend on nor the ability to maintain it for yourself. There are some eventualities -- an unexpected asteroid hits your house, perhaps -- in which you have no particularly feasible options outside of permitting your present body to perish. I've found that becoming comfortable with the reality of that upper bound -- the limit past which a given strategy for survival and independence cannot and should not be applied -- can in turn bound the extent to which I worry about that strategy's effectiveness. Plenty of traditional rituals around death either seek to create, or have a side effect of creating, this type of realization. 

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So how exactly do you resolve the fact that true independence may not be possible?

There's some realities in which it's possible, and others in which it's impossible. I accept the trade-off that when I seek the other perks of the reality in which perfect independence is impossible, they come with some drawbacks too. If I stop wanting to deal with those drawbacks, I can choose to function in a reality with different limitations.

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or if you don't want complete independence, where do you draw the line?

I don't generally seek complete independence day-to-day, because I prefer a standard of living that would take an immense amount of work for one person to provide -- more work than it's worth. If I found myself in circumstances with less dependence available, I would adapt my standard of living accordingly. But with the present circumstances, I can enjoy far more free time for pursuits such as chatting with this forum than if I was "independent" of the world's economies of scale in food and goods production.

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If you take this sort of belief more figuratively and don't even believe it's possible, how do you accept that it's not? It seems like such a horrible thing to me.

You're a self that connects to this whole internet forum thing through a mind in a meat chassis. Meat is high-maintenance and functions well in a relatively narrow band of conditions. It's thanks to the communal work of a bunch of other meat (and of course some plants and algae) that you have the free time to experience existential worry like this, and potentially also do more interesting things than spend all your time being/building life support (as you'd have to without the systems). But if you want to assume that taking advantage of economies of scale in maintaining your bodily interface to the world somehow reflects on your internal character as a self and individual, I can't stop you...

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Re: I feel like I hate dependence too much. Advice?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2018, 09:53:35 pm »
Do any of us truly seek absolute separation and isolation? From the slavery of material nature, yes. But not in whole. An afterlife without my great love, or with every animal I owned at once and they never poop, or even without fucking games and books - well that's just Christian hell for me.

"My step is great, that I may traverse the sky."
- The Pyramid Texts


Dragonchild

Re: I feel like I hate dependence too much. Advice?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2018, 07:19:19 am »
We've had a certain amount of conversation on the topic on the Vampyrism board, as well.

I saw one thread where it was brought up, yeah.

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In my experience, there's 3 broad options in your situation:

* Inaction. Continue feeling mediocre about your state of being.

Worst option of the 3, for sure.

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* Action toward being comfortable with a view of yourself in which you're an isolated entity with depedencies on factors outside yourself.

* Action toward being comfortable with a view of yourself in which you control those parts of the system which contribute to your comfort and success.


I'm not entirely sure how to go about feeling comfortable with either of those.

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I personally lean toward the third option in seeking balance, and out of laziness, I approach it from both sides: I simultaneously curate my dependencies such that I only "really require" things that are easy for me to control, and enhance my control of those things which I "really require".

Slightly helpful.

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Depending on where you're at, it may also help to directly and honestly contemplate those circumstances in which you can get neither what you depend on nor the ability to maintain it for yourself. There are some eventualities -- an unexpected asteroid hits your house, perhaps -- in which you have no particularly feasible options outside of permitting your present body to perish. I've found that becoming comfortable with the reality of that upper bound -- the limit past which a given strategy for survival and independence cannot and should not be applied -- can in turn bound the extent to which I worry about that strategy's effectiveness.

I'm not sure it would help given that that kind of scenario is one of the things that triggers this kind of existential worry for me.

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Plenty of traditional rituals around death either seek to create, or have a side effect of creating, this type of realization. 

Hmm. Something to look into, I guess.

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So how exactly do you resolve the fact that true independence may not be possible?

There's some realities in which it's possible, and others in which it's impossible. I accept the trade-off that when I seek the other perks of the reality in which perfect independence is impossible, they come with some drawbacks too. If I stop wanting to deal with those drawbacks, I can choose to function in a reality with different limitations.

I think you're speaking above my level of initiation with this quote. Or above my knowledge. Choosing to function in a different reality?

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or if you don't want complete independence, where do you draw the line?

I don't generally seek complete independence day-to-day, because I prefer a standard of living that would take an immense amount of work for one person to provide -- more work than it's worth. If I found myself in circumstances with less dependence available, I would adapt my standard of living accordingly. But with the present circumstances, I can enjoy far more free time for pursuits such as chatting with this forum than if I was "independent" of the world's economies of scale in food and goods production.

Hmm... Figuratively speaking, I'm not necessarily seeking to grow all my own plants and raise all my own meat, it would be enough to know that I could.

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If you take this sort of belief more figuratively and don't even believe it's possible, how do you accept that it's not? It seems like such a horrible thing to me.

You're a self that connects to this whole internet forum thing through a mind in a meat chassis. Meat is high-maintenance and functions well in a relatively narrow band of conditions. It's thanks to the communal work of a bunch of other meat (and of course some plants and algae) that you have the free time to experience existential worry like this, and potentially also do more interesting things than spend all your time being/building life support (as you'd have to without the systems). But if you want to assume that taking advantage of economies of scale in maintaining your bodily interface to the world somehow reflects on your internal character as a self and individual, I can't stop you...

I'm not sure it's really something I want to assume, just a sort of... Knot of emotion and thought that goes through my brain sometimes and makes it hard to focus on other things. It's really hard to ignore and kind of covers up other thoughts. If that at all makes sense.

Do any of us truly seek absolute separation and isolation? From the slavery of material nature, yes. But not in whole. An afterlife without my great love, or with every animal I owned at once and they never poop, or even without fucking games and books - well that's just Christian hell for me.

Are independence and isolation the same thing?

Kapalika

Re: I feel like I hate dependence too much. Advice?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2018, 09:42:51 am »
EDIT: TL;DR we all depend on something and someone depends on us in some way, I've seen it all... environments affect us more than we realize. Trading not being dependent on some things may centralize dependency on one source. Find your balance of what you are okay being dependent on and what depends on you and you will be happier. Only way to be least dependent is to be like a lone Amish.

Well until I realized you could be the smartest, toughe st person and still get fucked over because someone had an advantage over you like being born into wealth, I was the same way.

Being poor changed that. I've lived in extravagant houses with people making 6 figures, I've lived in middle class houses making 100k a year as well as 50k a year with professional degrees, I've lived in lower middle class homes of working families, I've lived in working poor houses barely above the poverty line and I've lived in houses stuck in poverty and the property degrading.

How independent someone tends to be in personality or emotion is pretty independent of that from what I've seen. Being too rich and you don't realize how much you've depended on your family's wealth. Too poor and you all depend on each other just to make it through and NEED to be dependable at the same time.

When I was homeless I found myself judging others for some things. Intellectually I could go, well I have the willpower to not turn to drugs (often how people end up addicted after becoming homeless). But I later realized 1) I made my choice knowing it was a possibility so had peace with the situation. 2) I had saved up some money just in case that happened 3) I had arranged for stuff I cared about to be stored to avoid loosing everything and 4) I still had a laptop, bank account and gym membership to take showers

IF someone was hit by some tragedy and lost everything, not only would they have the trauma of that, but literally none of the advantages I did. I don't drink most nights, but I could see if I lost everything saying "fuck it" and becoming an alchoholic. The internet alone gave me some normalcy. Yet despite all that, it did change my psychology being homeless even though it was only for 3 weeks. We often don't realize how unhealthy environments can fuck us up, even the most willful of us if given enough time and our emotional support systems (That we depend on) such as religion, magic, or family and friends fail us. Constantly watching your back, trusting no one. It's not like before civilization where you had the safety of the tribe. I knew the dangers and avoided other homeless and made friends with housed people and slept far away from people.

And remember, I have lived and grew up in the upper class. Think top 1-2% in terms of yearly earnings. I've seen it all. If you totally hate any dependence, you will end up hating yourself. Even the richest dude ever is dependent on the poor for income. We are all dependent on something, and someone is dependent on us. That's how the economy, that's how society works.

What will matter is you deciding what you are comfortable being depended on for, and what you are comfortable depending on. By forgoing one, you may create another. If you want total independence, you can get close by living in the sticks with your own power, water, ect, but then you depend on those able to sell you whatever needs you have that you don't have the means or environment to produce on your own (maybe certain tools or certain foods, other supplies we take for granted you might not think of), and centralize that dependency on that. If they fail, you're kind of screwed. Trust me, when I became homeless, there was a million things I never thought of I ended up needing.

There's a balance to be struck, and finding that will I think solve your feelings on the matter.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 09:51:03 am by Kapalika »
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idgo

Re: I feel like I hate dependence too much. Advice?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2018, 05:46:10 pm »
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Depending on where you're at, it may also help to directly and honestly contemplate those circumstances in which you can get neither what you depend on nor the ability to maintain it for yourself.
I'm not sure it would help given that that kind of scenario is one of the things that triggers this kind of existential worry for me.
If you are unable to explain the depths of why it triggers worry, or what you worry about, concretely enough for a way to circumvent that worry to be obvious... then I maintain that further examination of the worry has room to be productive.


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So how exactly do you resolve the fact that true independence may not be possible?
There's some realities in which it's possible, and others in which it's impossible. I accept the trade-off that when I seek the other perks of the reality in which perfect independence is impossible, they come with some drawbacks too. If I stop wanting to deal with those drawbacks, I can choose to function in a reality with different limitations.
I think you're speaking above my level of initiation with this quote. Or above my knowledge. Choosing to function in a different reality?
Eh, you'll get there when you get there. There's a way of viewing the world in which everything is "real" but some things are real differently from others... a video game world you're immersed in is real in that you'll hurt when your avatar there is injured; the physical world is real in that you'll usually feel good when your avatar (ie body) does, subjective worlds (sometimes called delusions by those who don't appreciate their utility) can have their own ways of being real enough to change your behavior and experience as well. If you're not there yet, may as well just disregard that bit.

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I don't generally seek complete independence day-to-day, because I prefer a standard of living that would take an immense amount of work for one person to provide -- more work than it's worth. ...
Hmm... Figuratively speaking, I'm not necessarily seeking to grow all my own plants and raise all my own meat, it would be enough to know that I could.

Well, there you have it. You wanna know that you could? Knowing that you could would make you feel better? Go learn how. It's so simple, though of course not easy.

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...  But if you want to assume that taking advantage of economies of scale in maintaining your bodily interface to the world somehow reflects on your internal character as a self and individual, I can't stop you...
I'm not sure it's really something I want to assume, just a sort of... Knot of emotion and thought that goes through my brain sometimes and makes it hard to focus on other things. It's really hard to ignore and kind of covers up other thoughts. If that at all makes sense.

Sure. Your brain and body are doing a thing that you don't Will them to. Changing that behavior is what pretty much all of applied Magic is for... I cannot predict whose techniques will work best for you but I can suggest that you study many until you find some that do as you wish them to.


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Are independence and isolation the same thing?

Depends on the definitions you choose. In the ones I use, "isolation" implies distance from or lack of access to a particular thing, while "independence" implies a choice of how to interact with a thing. I would say that someone socially independent can nevertheless choose to interact with others if it suits them -- only if they were harmed by the absence of others would they cease qualifying as having independence. But someone socially isolated is only isolated as long as they are distant from others -- if they become close to someone, their isolation ends.

Dragonchild

Re: I feel like I hate dependence too much. Advice?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2018, 01:29:59 am »


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So how exactly do you resolve the fact that true independence may not be possible?
There's some realities in which it's possible, and others in which it's impossible. I accept the trade-off that when I seek the other perks of the reality in which perfect independence is impossible, they come with some drawbacks too. If I stop wanting to deal with those drawbacks, I can choose to function in a reality with different limitations.
I think you're speaking above my level of initiation with this quote. Or above my knowledge. Choosing to function in a different reality?
Eh, you'll get there when you get there. There's a way of viewing the world in which everything is "real" but some things are real differently from others... a video game world you're immersed in is real in that you'll hurt when your avatar there is injured; the physical world is real in that you'll usually feel good when your avatar (ie body) does, subjective worlds (sometimes called delusions by those who don't appreciate their utility) can have their own ways of being real enough to change your behavior and experience as well.

Okay, I understand that. I guess I've always wished there were a way to make those things real in the way the physical world is, though. I find I'm only ever really happy are when I'm lost in a game, whether with friends in a tabletop game, or alone in Skyrim or something.

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...  But if you want to assume that taking advantage of economies of scale in maintaining your bodily interface to the world somehow reflects on your internal character as a self and individual, I can't stop you...
I'm not sure it's really something I want to assume, just a sort of... Knot of emotion and thought that goes through my brain sometimes and makes it hard to focus on other things. It's really hard to ignore and kind of covers up other thoughts. If that at all makes sense.

Sure. Your brain and body are doing a thing that you don't Will them to. Changing that behavior is what pretty much all of applied Magic is for... I cannot predict whose techniques will work best for you but I can suggest that you study many until you find some that do as you wish them to.

I hadn't thought of this specific issue in terms of Will. That... Might help, thanks.

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Are independence and isolation the same thing?

Depends on the definitions you choose. In the ones I use, "isolation" implies distance from or lack of access to a particular thing, while "independence" implies a choice of how to interact with a thing. I would say that someone socially independent can nevertheless choose to interact with others if it suits them -- only if they were harmed by the absence of others would they cease qualifying as having independence. But someone socially isolated is only isolated as long as they are distant from others -- if they become close to someone, their isolation ends.

It's not isolation I would want, but the satisfaction of being comfortable with the possibility of isolation.

Posting in this thread, continuing this discussion. It seems to help. And it bugs me that it seems to help. Why isn't it enough to be willing to be introspective and meditate and try to pinpoint my issues on my own? Why does it seem like everything we do and are has to be a chain to other people in some way?

I've heard that psychologists now say that keeping secrets is harmful, and not being open increases stress. It seems an oppressive way for a species to be. I'd say they could be wrong, but it's in keeping with what I've seen.

It's disgusting to me. What I think, what I feel, what I believe should be mine to disclose to whomever I please, or not. There should not be so many absurd mental issues that come from the decision to keep some things to yourself.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 01:49:30 am by Dragonchild »

Dragonchild

Re: I feel like I hate dependence too much. Advice?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2018, 01:47:25 am »
EDIT: TL;DR we all depend on something and someone depends on us in some way, I've seen it all... environments affect us more than we realize. Trading not being dependent on some things may centralize dependency on one source. Find your balance of what you are okay being dependent on and what depends on you and you will be happier. Only way to be least dependent is to be like a lone Amish.

Well until I realized you could be the smartest, toughe st person and still get fucked over because someone had an advantage over you like being born into wealth, I was the same way.

Being poor changed that. I've lived in extravagant houses with people making 6 figures, I've lived in middle class houses making 100k a year as well as 50k a year with professional degrees, I've lived in lower middle class homes of working families, I've lived in working poor houses barely above the poverty line and I've lived in houses stuck in poverty and the property degrading.

How independent someone tends to be in personality or emotion is pretty independent of that from what I've seen. Being too rich and you don't realize how much you've depended on your family's wealth. Too poor and you all depend on each other just to make it through and NEED to be dependable at the same time.

When I was homeless I found myself judging others for some things. Intellectually I could go, well I have the willpower to not turn to drugs (often how people end up addicted after becoming homeless). But I later realized 1) I made my choice knowing it was a possibility so had peace with the situation. 2) I had saved up some money just in case that happened 3) I had arranged for stuff I cared about to be stored to avoid loosing everything and 4) I still had a laptop, bank account and gym membership to take showers

IF someone was hit by some tragedy and lost everything, not only would they have the trauma of that, but literally none of the advantages I did. I don't drink most nights, but I could see if I lost everything saying "fuck it" and becoming an alchoholic. The internet alone gave me some normalcy. Yet despite all that, it did change my psychology being homeless even though it was only for 3 weeks. We often don't realize how unhealthy environments can fuck us up, even the most willful of us if given enough time and our emotional support systems (That we depend on) such as religion, magic, or family and friends fail us. Constantly watching your back, trusting no one. It's not like before civilization where you had the safety of the tribe. I knew the dangers and avoided other homeless and made friends with housed people and slept far away from people.

And remember, I have lived and grew up in the upper class. Think top 1-2% in terms of yearly earnings. I've seen it all. If you totally hate any dependence, you will end up hating yourself. Even the richest dude ever is dependent on the poor for income. We are all dependent on something, and someone is dependent on us. That's how the economy, that's how society works.

What will matter is you deciding what you are comfortable being depended on for, and what you are comfortable depending on. By forgoing one, you may create another. If you want total independence, you can get close by living in the sticks with your own power, water, ect, but then you depend on those able to sell you whatever needs you have that you don't have the means or environment to produce on your own (maybe certain tools or certain foods, other supplies we take for granted you might not think of), and centralize that dependency on that. If they fail, you're kind of screwed. Trust me, when I became homeless, there was a million things I never thought of I ended up needing.

Hmm... I didn't grow up rich, but I've never been poor either.

I do live in a Bible belt state and had the kind of Christian parents that have no clue how to talk to their kids and think it's enough to tell them to go pray about it any time you come to them with a problem, though, so that always sucked. They weren't... Cruel though. They're just hard to talk to.

I remember in my late teens dealing with a lot of the emotions I had repressed from childhood, and playing the star wars Kotor games and developing a very Sith like outlook and having extremely judgemental views toward people in hard times.

Now I may not be homeless, but I'm not living on my own and am having trouble being able to. So it's pretty easy to see how stupid I was being at the time.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 01:54:07 am by Dragonchild »

idgo

Re: I feel like I hate dependence too much. Advice?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2018, 04:58:01 am »
It's not isolation I would want, but the satisfaction of being comfortable with the possibility of isolation.

Posting in this thread, continuing this discussion. It seems to help. And it bugs me that it seems to help. Why isn't it enough to be willing to be introspective and meditate and try to pinpoint my issues on my own? Why does it seem like everything we do and are has to be a chain to other people in some way?

It seems to me that you are presently at the point of learning to build your own tools for full introspection and self-modification. There comes a tipping point of knowledge and expertise past which you can ask the hard questions of yourself without outside help... but to get there, you need to learn what it's like to be asked the questions your mind dislikes and prefers to slither away from, and that's easiest done by external intervention.

In a simplified metaphor, you can write your own Eliza bot, but only after you've learnt how an Eliza bot works. It's unique and special and a breakthrough to build the first one, but once the "secret" to it is found, it can be much more easily spread than rediscovered.

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I've heard that psychologists now say that keeping secrets is harmful, and not being open increases stress. It seems an oppressive way for a species to be. I'd say they could be wrong, but it's in keeping with what I've seen.

It's disgusting to me. What I think, what I feel, what I believe should be mine to disclose to whomever I please, or not. There should not be so many absurd mental issues that come from the decision to keep some things to yourself.

First, if you decide that keeping secrets is required to stress you, it almost certainly will. If instead you choose an understanding of the world in which stress isn't a required side effect of privacy, you have far better chances of enjoying your discretion without coming to harm.

Second is a technique I hope you'll learn to do for yourself eventually, but I'll hold your hand through it now: Give a harder think to the *kinds* of secrets that are most likely to be held by subjects of psychological research, and *why* the average subject might be motivated to keep something a secret.

When I run this mental simulation, I get the idea that most research happens at universities, so most volunteer research subjects are college kids. What kinds of "real secrets" does a hypothetical average college kid carry? I'd contend that most secrets held by a relatively normal college student are held out of fear. Someone ashamed of their sexuality might keep it secret; someone fearful of others' reactions to how they spend their time might try to keep their habits secret; someone maintaining a long standing lie about anything also qualifies a secret keeper. It's obvious to me how these secrets stemming from shame and fear necessarily induce stress, and are common among the type of person to be studied in research, so it seems obvious to me that the research result generalized to "secrecy" should match the results of equivalent research into shame and fear.

And yes, running your brain in terrified prey-mode long term is not great for your health. Big news.

Individuals outside the classes most typically researched for the papers you read, however, often keep other kinds of secret for other reasons. Personally, I would class most of my own secrets as secrets of either manners or apathy.

Medical and sexual details, for instance, are often left undisclosed out of politeness. Neither I nor a listener would gain anything if I was to over-share them, so they remain un-said. Similarly, I keep many complex or incomplete thoughts "secret" because they would require a disproportionate amount of effort to properly explain to anyone, and I have other things that I would rather do with my time.

These secrets of politeness and apathy differ greatly in the experience of holding them than secrets of shame or fear. If a secret of mine got out, I wouldn't be harmed by it -- I might be mildly inconvenienced if I decided it was worthwhile to clarify a misunderstood idea into a spin less distasteful to the listener, but I would not be harmed by their disclosure in the way that a young adult might be if you disclosed their "secret" drug habit to their parents or their "secret" sexual history to their partner.