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Messages - Mindmaster

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31
Lounge / Re: What the fuck has Religious Forums become?!
« on: September 20, 2018, 08:15:29 pm »
But honestly, what do you all do to get your posts deleted? All the 2 or 3 times that posts of mine where deleted were fully understandable - either because I was feeding some semi-troll (although I kinda enjoyed it that one time - talking with Satan's Serrated Edge or however he was called about his transphobia) or because I was talking about the ONA after it had been forbidden there.


You specifically cannot talk about ONA in the LHP DIR, but what's funny is you can talk about them in any of the others. You can't debate anything outside of the debate forums, even though those are not exclusive to certain beliefs.

If they'd delete your posts and the people you'd talk with they'll just kill the thread. I've had threads with over 150 posts get destroyed because people were arguing. Talk about wasted time... :D

All they saw was the arguing, but really people were just expressing their beliefs and they were accidentally contending with someone else's. Context is everything, but apparently it's too much trouble to figure that out. :D

32
Lounge / Re: What the fuck has Religious Forums become?!
« on: September 20, 2018, 08:38:28 am »
Quote
I'm betting the issue is far simpler... Something about membership fees, lol.

Yeah, from what Iv'e heard is the more higher up you go with the Temple the more your fees go up. If the Temple was for free than I would be more than happy to join. But still, I don't agree with their 2 year initiatory program.

Quote
Maybe, the issue is the O.S. is more all-encompassing and gets them mad. :D

I gotta admit that would be funny if Dr. Aquino smashed his keyboards in a fit of rage if the O.S. became that competitive :P (No offence to those that respect the man).

The old groups are philosophically dead. All of them. No point in joining, the new stuff is coming out in venues such as this forum and its manifestation. They've been spending the better part of their existence drawing divides and stoking the fires of righteousness. That applies to ToS as trying to style itself as the original CoS part 2, the CoS prancing about LaVey's corpose, and nearly all of the others. About the only group that's not doing this crap is the Gen-Dem folks and they have more of an 'umbrella of belief' where multiple philosophies happily co-exist. I'd mention other people, but it seems that their groups are either closed or defunct.

Aquino has practically nothing to do with the ToS these days, or at least so it seems. I'm not certain that he'd care either way. :D

If you cannot convey the essence of the left-hand path in less than a few months you suck at teaching. Mind you, the people I've taught things to were not necessarily Satanists. I believe that one must appeal to aesthetics in their approach and also relate to the subjective understandings of the individual.  The form of the left-hand path that you find pleasurable is second to the focus of the path. The basic principles are simple and once those are grasped it's all a matter of how we'd like to decorate our new house, metaphorically. :D

33
Lounge / Re: What the fuck has Religious Forums become?!
« on: September 20, 2018, 07:57:03 am »
Whaaaaat higher degrees in ToS get higher fees ?

Fees are lame. News @ 11. :D

I mean what are the real costs of a group?

Time, a few bucks a month on a server space, and a little elbow grease. If you make some publications in e-book formats like PDF or .mobi's it's nearly nothing. All you need to do to be legit is file for a 501(c) and move the fuck on. (Those are usually cheap / free for religious groups in most states.) So we're talking a couple hundred bucks a year? Most people spend more than that on video games. :D

Mind you, I'm not against donations or fundraising for particular goals -- I think the membership fee makes it to hard to tell exactly where that money is going.

34
Lounge / Re: What the fuck has Religious Forums become?!
« on: September 20, 2018, 12:49:10 am »
Quote
Anyway, they're probably pulling the standard CoS shit -- "we're the only Setian's".

The TOS though has always had their bylaws on keeping their materials to initiates and to their hierarchical memberships only.

I'm not really against that, but a lot of the "Words of Set" is just paraphrasing other texts that I've read. It's not like they actually came up with the ideas or that they weren't anything that was in the wild already. There is no secret wisdom in the act of collating things into one book, it's just a convenience. Some of their documents are more arty or metaphorical and nature and they're a bit more creative, but the useful stuff could have been located nearly anywhere else.

Anyway, how many Setians that have joined the TOS haven't already read these things? That's the point I was trying to make. :D If anything having them posted on the O.S. forum just helps them recruit and gain mind-share.

I'm betting the issue is far simpler... Something about membership fees, lol.

Fundamentally, I'm against what they do here in only that I believe in the freedom of knowledge and reject hierarchy. O.S. sort of has the right idea -- the titles are just administrative, after that people are just in or out. No one is attempting to profit off the group outside of their own independent works. No one is better or worse for the titles they have, etc...

Maybe, the issue is the O.S. is more all-encompassing and gets them mad. :D

35
Lounge / Re: What the fuck has Religious Forums become?!
« on: September 19, 2018, 07:51:44 pm »
Lol yeah - that seems like a really productive area for discussion. /s

I was amazed how little engagement was actually offered to the topic or you. And yet we have people having discussions about what repenting and coming to jesus... I checked that place out on hearing it recommended here several months back but I wasn't much impressed with the conversation there.

We mostly came here because we were tired of getting modded every time we argued. :D

If you can imagine a LHP forum that doesn't allow some debate, then you can see the debacle.

Anyway since that time:

1) All the mods have basically been replaced with < 25 year old SJWs. All of the mods seem to be on some psychoactive medication. It doesn't help anything, lol.

2) Anyone with an interesting perspective have systematically been driven away from the platform because trolls are allowed to ply their trade.

3) Response times for modding (so you can get people modded if they're derailing your threads) have gone from like hours to three days+. I've been modded WEEKS after I've posted something -- sometimes I can't even remember the post they're modding when they delete it, lol.

4) Most of the older accounts have left after being done with the bullshit. The longer the account has been on RF the more likely they are to skate.

5) The remainder of what's left -- SJWs, Evangelists, and hard-core materialist atheists. It seems none of them get modded no matter what stupid crap they place in your thread, either. But, this might not be choice -- they've been bleeding members so hard that maybe they have to keep them around just to have any conversation at all.

6) Post counts and new threads are way down and the lowest I've seen. When we were in their LHP forum posting some of our threads would be 60-80 posts long. That rarely happens anymore outside of political threads where people are arguing about off-topic garbage.

There are probably more on-topic conversations on this forum in comparison to RF at this juncture regardless of the subject being discussed. :D

36
Lounge / Re: What the fuck has Religious Forums become?!
« on: September 19, 2018, 07:36:24 pm »
Actually we've caught the most shit from ToS - they made us take down Diabolicon and the Word of Set. The O.S. is unique and stands alone.

That makes me giggle because if it wasn't for the conversations we've had here most people wouldn't even know what those two things are. :D Let's face it, if you really love a text some grainy PDF isn't gonna be what you want to keep looking at. You are generally using those materials to determine whether you're even interested in the material at all. The "word of set" is mostly rehashes of other material, so not much lost either way.

Anyway, they're probably pulling the standard CoS shit -- "we're the only Setian's". Though, I realize the O.S. isn't Setian-only.


37
I forgot this, but the most popular Viashnava sects fit Etu's definition of western right hand path. So we got Hindu religions that fit both of his "western" definitions and we can probably point to western religions that fit his "eastern" view and as both me and @Mindmaster pointed out, a lot of religions fall out of these categories. One should wonder what use this copy-paste breakdown / reference of his is. I'd say it's use is almost nothing.

Anyways the main reason I made this topic is whenever the subject has come up on other forums it always derails the conversation so I figured to have the conversation continue here rather than on the other topic which was about something entirely different.

Hence my initial reservations about trying to classify things so succinctly. I don't necessarily fault @Etu Malku from trying, but I just thing it's painting with too broad a brush. Especially in regard to Hindu beliefs where there are often two sects which basically exist because they refute each other. :D A bulk of eastern philosophy exists in this way so it's hard to categorize them beyond a few base assertions.


From his presentation he seems to believe there is no theistic left-hand path and that's rubbish. You certainly can know of your deity but not be subservient to them -- e.g. the Romans, Greeks, Celts, and the ancient Scandinavians. Modern neo-pagans are definitely not subservient to their deities either even though they venerate them.

Ultimately, I feel that the attempts to classify theists as "off the path" are just reflecting a limited understanding of that path. For example, the whole "becoming a god" thing... that's just straight out dogma since you have no way to prove such a statement is even possible. It's just wishful thinking and fantasy. If it's "pretend to be a god" or "presume you're a god" or "because no one else refutes me, it must be true" then it's all fantasy, regardless. Admittedly, I know what a god is and know that "I" and it are something different after a fashion. It doesn't mean that "I" am not aware of the connection to that being or that in some way it is not a part of me since I can feel that. But, I also feel that connection with other humans as well. Pardon the quotes on the I, but it was to make a point that maybe "I" is a bit more nebulous of a construct than the contents of your skull. :D

That being said, the simply analogy fails on basic scrutiny to me. If the "I" could include Jehovah then what does such a comparison of RHP versus LHP yield? The idea being that if in some whacky way your will is actually the deities will how do you formulate the distinction? I guess it depends on the divisions. Some of my experimentation in this regard seem to yield that the will is not fixed and there is hybridizing between spiritual and mundane influences. That's to say as you involve yourself with a deity you will pick up on its will it becomes a part of your mind space. The connection can become good enough that your reasoning will consider the deities wishes, much like you would do with any other friend, and you have the choice of whether or not to act on that information. That choice component is the reason it is still a left-hand path expression and not a manifestation of the right-hand path. The RHP would presume the deity must be followed unequivocally. The LHP theist makes up their own damn mind regardless of this spiritual influence.

I'd define the left-hand path in a much simpler way: The left-hand path is the quest for spiritual and philosophical freedom through the rejection of religious, cultural, social, and ideological norms.

That says nothing of how you decide to get there nor does it limit the methods by which one seeks that goal. The particulars are of absolutely no consequence and are mostly aesthetic. Whether your expression of that is in an atheistic, theistic, or agnostic frame of mind is irrelevant. Anyone attempting to remove people from the path over their method of expression is simply making a show of their own insecurities and lack of mastery.

38
Satanism / Re: making a list of notable Satanist organizations/sects
« on: September 17, 2018, 04:35:50 am »

Perennial philosophy is the understanding that theistic belief systems share a single, universal doctrine. This doctrine posits that the highest good that human life can achieve is through the union with a Supreme Being / Energy of the Universe.

The way in which this is achieved is through the deception of one's conscious awareness into believing that one has been accepted by this Supreme Being / Energy. To absolve one's self into this is antithetic to the western left hand path goals of individuation and autotheism. To become More Than Human should ase the goal.

Symbolically, this resistance to perennialism is the basis of such occult structures as the Tree of Daath and the ideals behind furthering the Fall of the Tree of Life because it is an imperfect Tree and in its place, a new and perfected Tree (that of your subjective universe with you as god) is nurtured.

This is simply over-simplification to the point of making a tragic error in one's understanding. Left-hand path theism almost needs a better set of words, since it is something entirely different. My perspective is that the separation of spiritual and material are delusions, as is the separation of men from their gods. There is just one living breathing energy in an infinitesimal quantity of vehicles. There is no actual separation of me and Satan outside of the limitations of the material world. Thus, there is no need to merge where one is already a part of that vast network. One merely has to pay attention, so to speak. That being said no two theists in the left-hand path see it all the exact same way, but I refer to this as a "hardware limitation" -- it's our own perceptions that are limited in this regard... They are suited for I/O in this material world, they often just become an interference pattern when you go beyond that.

There is no "uniformity of goals" between different belief systems other than outsiders to those systems attempting to make one. These mental gymnastics are performed to please amateur philosophers, pseudo-intellectuals, and occultniks. :D

No mainstream religions really seek union with God in the manner you've described outside of the Hindu belief systems. They're perfectly happy with the God/Man separation and demarcation lines.

39
Satanism / Re: making a list of notable Satanist organizations/sects
« on: September 15, 2018, 09:04:00 pm »
I too have been at this for some time, I can remember when it was, for the most part, myself and Michael Ford progressing non-theistic Luciferianism, I have a very distinct understanding of 'theistic' anything and do not find any of it resonating on the western left hand path whatsoever. In my studies, I have found Lucifer to have little to no association with Satan nor with the Abrahamic faiths of which too many seem to draw parallels with, thanks to Milton and Jerome's Vulgate.

Well, I'm a theist, so my impression is not based on historical, fictional, or intellectual diversions in that regard. My impression is based on how I feel that energy -- to me they're the same and synonymous. I recognize that others have different understandings of that, and I'm fine with it. As far as comparing atheistic to theistic expressions it's simply an invalid comparison. Atheist expressions of the left-hand path lean on objectivity and known history where our theist is working in a psycho-spiritual medium. Neither of those possess an authority over the other, but rather are suited to different sorts of people. Some people read the Wiki. some have to be there with it and feel it for it to be real and no amount of scholarly diligence is relevant.

Though admittedly, this confusion is the bulk of what I've been writing about as of late. So rather than bit-by-bit chug through a subject which rightly deserves a discourse, I've been putting my efforts to that end.

40
Satanism / Re: making a list of notable Satanist organizations/sects
« on: September 15, 2018, 06:24:05 pm »
At least not more difference than between any two theistic Luciferians or Satanists.
Well, some Luciferians (and a few Satanists) stress how Satan and Lucifer are different entities, though.
[/quote]

I agree this would be the sticking point probably as to why a Luciferian would consider themselves that versus a Satanist. However, I feel Satan=Lucifer and to me it's just word games. Luciferians typically hate Judeo-Christian frames of reference, but after that they're doing the same shit. Though, if we're taking Roman references to Lucifier and ignoring Satanism there is not much there -- you can literally play pin the tail of the deity. If you get into the details they mostly just pin what I'd attribute to Satan to Lucifer. In essence, they draw the demarcation and still worship the same deity in another context, in drag, so the arguments get pretty silly. :D

41
Satanism / Re: making a list of notable Satanist organizations/sects
« on: September 15, 2018, 06:13:48 pm »
Then why are other non-Satanic organizations being mentioned here? e.g. Luciferians are not Satanists.
[/quote]

I've been at this for awhile, I certainly consider Theistic Luciferians in the same vane as Theistic Satanists. Our beliefs, practices, and whatnot are similar. Generally what is different is aesthetic -- they prefer different names or different texts. I'd say they're nearly identical other than their rejection of Judeo-Christian names. Of course, my opinion of this is based solely on direct conversation with several folks directly. Once we get past the Lucifer=Satan name debacle they're doing what I do, for the most part. Your theism versus atheism is the primary difference in any of these paths, after that it's aesthetics and minor talking points. That applies to the bulk of left-hand path expressions, not just this comparison. :D

So, it's basically whether your subjective impression focuses on similarity or isolates the minutia. I admit the aesthetic differences, but see the commonality as well. :D

42
Satanism / Re: making a list of notable Satanist organizations/sects
« on: September 15, 2018, 08:37:40 am »
Nice list!

Quote
Been trying to think of more notable theistic groups but I keep drawing a blank. I know of influential writers but not any groups that are active that don't fit into the ONA types. Anyone know of any active theistic groups worth mentioning that are notable in some way?
Not sure how active they still are or whether they ever had more than a dozen or so official members, but the MLO/TotBL?
There's certainly a lot of people influenced by them at least.
Well, perhaps you counted them to the ONA-types, though, as they took some inspiration from them. Wouldn't equate them, though.

Besides that, yeah, mainly individuals, very small groups at most that are not open to further members or that are quite unknown at least.
If you wanna make a more general list, also including single persons and/or groups of less notability, I could try and gather some suggestions.

MLO/TotBL pretty much DOA, most of the founders split into different directions many of them being artists or musicians. Some of those people quit all of that stuff and run some closed (unnamed) group, but that's about it for what I know of them.

I think ONA basically just embraces any edgy manifestation, so that's all Satanism is to them. Many of them are playing with Islam. I wouldn't say their focus was ever on satanic religion. ONA lingo is an entirely different can of worms, and a belief system on top of all others.

Groups are extraordinarily rare with theists, but when they happen they're not open. We receive shit from the public and other Satanists, so we just rather do without them. Probably the most open is actually the Demonolatry though they ascribe to some neo-pagan understandings, where I diverge with them. A ton of theists are hanging with dark aligned pagans and Wiccans/Witches. We can slide in with them on rituals because we understand The Horned God and Satan to be identical. So, there is a lot of that there is a group but it's not necessarily a satanic group thing going on. Many of the open local groups will pretend to be "traditional witches" or you will see them list some darker beings in their descriptions. It won't be out there that they're Satanic Witches.

It's also probably worth mentioning but there is nearly no difference between Theistic Luciferians and Satanists. It's probably wise to combine them in most cases. (Probably to their frustration... :))

43
General LHP Discussion / Re: Occult religions and work...
« on: September 11, 2018, 10:32:40 pm »
Lol I feel for you, getting called into an office to speak with a "superior" of any kind really sucks. Unfortunately employers care way too much about irrelevant things. As long as the conversation isn't interrupting something then it doesn't matter.

If employer's stopped prying into people's personal lives we would have a lot less unemploymemt.

@Kapalika as well.

This is exactly the reason I lie all day about it at work. If I was making a million dollars and I could tell them to fuck themselves I would. :D

It just serves no purpose to discuss such things at work, if asked my response is standard: None of your business. You do run into the weird situations where people try to friend zone you and come to your house, but coming to my house wouldn't reveal anything accept my addiction to guitars and xbox games. If they start talking religion I just tell them I'm not interested. I don't have occult crap lying all over the place and in the open to make people ask me stupid questions.

However, any sort of sweating you down because of your religious belief is completely illegal and you likely could get pro-bono backup and sue the living shit out of them. Especially via ACL, and similar.

Document everything, record it with your phone if possible, and remember you are under no obligation to answer them. It has absolutely nothing to do with your job or its performance.

44
How do you know you're communicating with an egregore instead of an actual entity, such as The Prince of Darkness? What traits would tell you that you're not talking to an actual metaphysical entity, and not somebody's construct.

The comparison you make here is just going to lead to a bunch of mental gymnastics, but I'll attempt to provide a succinct comparison.

An Egregore:

1) Created by us, either purposefully or by accident.
2) Generally narrow in purpose, doesn't have it's own motivations
3) Exists in a lower "space" in the hierarchy in the collective mind -- not self-aware, etc.
4) Can become the next case over time, if enough energy is given to do so.
5) Typically functions as an extended or shared servant. It has no will, so it can be ordered to act on one's behalf.
6) Has extremely limited power. Cannot overcome effects of anything that exists in the next category. It also can die if not maintained as it is in a temporal state.

A God/Demon/Spirit/Being:

1) May have started as an egregore, but may not have. Many are older than humans some may have been egregores created by the first being.
2) Has it's own will, purposes, and interests. It is not a servant.
3) Is not able to be controlled or ordered it has become and active force in the universe.
4) If it helps you, it's because it wants to. It's far more powerful than you.
5) Massive unimaginable power, immortal, and eternal.
6) The differences between God, Demon/Spirit, and Being are simply respective power levels.

If you are sensitive psychically to the differences, there is simply no confusion -- it's like seeing a light bulb in comparison to the sun. However, if you are in the intellectual head space, probably not.

45
General LHP Discussion / Re: Good Groups / Resources
« on: September 11, 2018, 05:38:18 am »
I'm, of course, exceedingly thrilled to have everyone here on our forum :). That said, the OS never has or will pretend to be the one and only organization and path. There's plenty of other great groups out there to make each other aware of. So in contrast of the groups we want to warm people of, what groups are great to send people to?

To be frank I'm not super happy with anything but this forum right now, but I'm not aware of many groups haha.

Exceedingly difficult in the theistic Satanist camp... :D

I thought of starting one in the past for the mere convenience of being able to get some lines of communication going.

That being said, I still recommend as an on ramp:

Theistic Satanism without all of the cruft, really...

1) https://zalbarath666.wordpress.com

Z's site is good because it's not overloaded with a bunch of confusing sub-topics. Especially useful for beginners.

2) http://theisticsatanism.com

Diana Vera's site is pretty good, but is really dated on material and does a lot of Satanic Panic defense that just simply have no context these days. The groups that Diana is in have some polythiestic beliefs that may or may not float your boat. She's been kinda MIA.

3) http://rjwomack.com

RJ Womack (aka Brother Nero) has a podcast with semi-random release dates.

He wrote a small book called: Satanism: A Beginner’s Guide to the Religious Worship of Satan and Demons . He's a bit more RHP/Dogmatic than I'd prefer but his podcasts are pretty decent.

4) https://www.spiritualsatanist.com

Venus' Satanas' site has been recently reworked and contains more resources. @VenusSatanas is also a member of these forums.

I have a book and an accompanying website in the works... When that goes live it'll probably be another useful resource.  ETA is probably early next year, but I'll take as long as it takes for it to be right. :D

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