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Messages - Liu

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16
Entertainment / Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
« on: September 05, 2020, 03:18:05 pm »
This is the fundamental flaw with the (western) left hand path people, the lack of a definitive outline as to what IS the (western) left hand path. The 'label' has become whatever you 'need' it to be and doesn't stand on its own, which is antithetical to the actual (western) LHP philosophy.

To me, that's not a flaw but entirely in line with (western) LHP philosophy - it's about finding an approach to spiritual development that works for oneself as an individual, so clearly many people will have different forms of it based on their needs.

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This is the definition of the Western Left Hand Path as the Herald of the Dawn defines it and to me represents the Path in its clearest, truest, and nonlinear form.

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The Western Left Hand Path is the conscious effort to realize and embrace one's Greater Self and to bring this Self into one's mundane self as often as possible thus coming to know one's true Self while incarnate.
Hm, if we for a moment ignore our metaphysical differences, I could rephrase that as:
"The Western Left Hand Path is the conscious effort to realize and embrace Oneself and to bring this Self into one's mundane self as often as possible thus coming to know one's true Self while incarnate."
I.e., no matter whether that Greater Self is something distinct from an objective universe that one's mundane self would be part of, or whether it's simply the core of one's personality, that shouldn't affect the techniques or even the goal in practical terms as it's still about the same kind of self-actualization, isn't it?

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Entertainment / Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
« on: September 04, 2020, 06:44:44 pm »
Thanks!

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How would you distinguish between someone who is on the path from someone who isn't?

1) Critical and Independent Thinking

2) Being non collective/non conformist

3) One who does not seek any union/dissolving the self or (ego) to god or to the Universe, but instead cherishes that ego and remains separate from the laws of the Objective Universe.

4) Xepering/Remanifesting/Creating action or power and manifesting it as a will/Bettering yourself/Becoming as the Übermensch (or godhood)

That is my definition of the Left Hand Path
Pretty sure that's common also among non-occultists.

Most people I usually have to do much with in real life are 1) academics, who are 3) atheists and 4) lifelong learners - whether they are also 2) non-conformist is a bit harder to tell, but considering that they chose a profession that is based on their personal interests and where the point is progress would point to that.
And I would assume that hardly any of them has ever even heard of the LHP.

So all in all that doesn't seem too unusual to me. It's all a matter of degree, though, how high you put the bar in regards to fulfilling these criteria.

Myself, I would argue to fulfill criteria 1), 2) and 4), or at least aiming to, and 3) resolves to not applicable when I try to apply it to my metaphysics. (one is already a part of "god" anyway).

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Someone who is not on the Left Hand Path- 1) One, who is and thinks as the herd thinks
What does the herd think, though? Which people are the herd? Pretty much anyone I know fulfills at least half of the criteria based on my estimation.

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5) One who chooses to seek a Union with god by dissolving the self and the ego (meaning by conventional religious means).
I don't know many Christians but none of them seemed to have that as their religious goal.

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Entertainment / Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
« on: September 02, 2020, 06:33:26 am »
Huh? I didn't mean that as an offense against you or your order. I'm actually surprised that it wouldn't be a (not official but de facto) requirement to have beliefs similar to that as it seems such a fundamental part of your order-related writings, but as I said, even if it were the case I wouldn't really mind. Sorry I got the wrong impression, though, except for your postings on this forum I don't really know much about your order so I should have looked into it more before assuming that to be the case.

Well regarding humans differing ontologically from other animals I guess we best agree to disagree. I don't consider it impossible, I just don't think we have clear enough evidence to base our metaphysics on that alone.

The LHP is a social construct, so there is no true definition of it, only what people make of it. What seems dogmatic to me is that you say that these other forms of approaching the LHP are invalid and that you base that on metaphysical beliefs - fairly reasonable ones, admittedly, even if I don't find them convincing, but still beliefs that can't be proven.

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Entertainment / Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
« on: September 01, 2020, 05:16:32 am »
Proto-man was just one of many animal species fighting for survival over the millennia. If his brain could evolve through processes of natural selection, then why did the brains of other creatures not similarly evolve - at least a little? The fact is that the brains of other creatures have remained practically the same size while man’s has “evolved”. By the law of averages - which applies to natural selection as much as to anything else - there should have been at least some species other than man evolving in intelligence at least partway to the human level. There is none.

So what has taken place?

We are left with the explanation: Deliberate Cause
And this implies an Isolate Intelligence working through our physical being (brain/body)

Human intelligence is a violation of Objective Universal Law. That evidence for the existence of an intelligent entity distinct from the objective universe has instilled in humanity the potential to enjoy the same external perspective, as well as the intelligence to do so with a deliberate, creative purpose.
There's enough other species who have evolved to a certain degree of self-awareness - if that degree is possible with just the objective universe, why need another ingredient for humans?

The distance to other species could be simply explained by e.g. ratchet effects - once a certain change has occurred, there's no easy going back and other changes build on it.

Also, even if we were the only species with any form of intelligence - there are also explanations for that. E.g. it could simply be extremely unlikely for a species to be in the right circumstances for evolutionary pressure to push into this direction.

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This Higher Self / GodSelf does not behave as though it were merely a “sum total” of the brain’s sensory and manipulative capacities, combining and recombining inputted information as though it were an “organic” electronic computer. It has a sense of identity, a sense of uniqueness, a sense of distance, and differentiation from everything else that exists.
Why would those things not be caused by the brain?

Even if your beliefs would turn out to be right: As I said on previous occasions, I don't think it's a good idea to make the definition of the LHP dependent on specific metaphysical beliefs that we have no way of proving. Otherwise you make the LHP dependent on believing in a dogma, which doesn't seem very LHPy to me at all.

I don't mind you having these beliefs or even if you make them a requirement for joining a spiritual group of yours. But I don't see why believing them would be a necessity for being on the LHP (or rather, for being a satanist, as was what Suthek and me were discussing).

20
Entertainment / Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
« on: August 31, 2020, 05:11:48 pm »
From my experience, one is either on the Right or the Left Hand Path, it is illogical to be on both at once.
From my experience, you can ask 10 people who identify as LHPer or RHPer for a definition of either and get 10 different replies.

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When I use the word 'self' (small 's') I am referring to the local mind self, our conscious mind in the objective universe. When I use a capital 'S' I refer to our nonlocal mind, the one which is that of our Greater Self and which is not part of the objective universe.

This non-local mind (Self) and our ability to become consciously aware of it, is integral to the Western Left Hand Path. Many refer to it as apotheosis or autotheism, I understand it as something similar to, but different in many ways regarding those two definitions.
The local mind would be those aspects of the mind dependent on (or interdependent with) physical things (i.e. brain states or the body in general) whereas the nonlocal mind would exist independent from that?

I haven't seen reason to assume the existence of a nonlocal mind of that definition, except for the fact that subjective awareness seems like something ontologically distinct from the world of matter. Yet that would be merely awareness in and of itself - all the content of awareness seems to be caused by the interaction between awareness-per-se and matter. Sentience doesn't exist in either sphere alone, just in the combination of both. At least that's what makes most sense to me based on introspection.

21
Entertainment / Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
« on: August 31, 2020, 08:00:59 am »
Thanks for the replies!
Perhaps this explanation is closer to what you are looking for . . .
The objective universe is simply a self-perpetuating mechanism. The majority of religions and faiths believe they are tapping into some kind of Universal Mind, yet they are simply aligning their conscious awareness with a mechanism which in truth is of non-mind and is not cognizant sentience. They flood their brains with happy waves of theta and are thus deceived into the feeling of being connected to something greater than their local mind. The Work of the Mystai (western left hand path) is not directed towards this, this is not our path. Our path is that of developing our proto-conscious field and connecting with our nonlocal mind (Self). By doing so we create a bridge from this reality to our Greater Self's reality and thus we are changed from human to something more than human.
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- from the Texts of H☿D
My beliefs are somewhere between what you describe as the practice of the majority of religions and what you describe as western left hand path:
I consider the self a part of that mechanism that also the objective universe is part of.
What would be the reason to distinguish between a local and a nonlocal mind?

The way I see it is both ways, stepping onto the Path of Darkness would be that realization of the distinction from you and the societal herd. In which I believe in expanding that separateness/isolation in order to achieve the means on the Path (non metaphysically speaking). You and I both agree that Satanism is about bettering yourself as that individual or Elect. That is how I personally view it, isolating yourself from the mainstream society of the masses is that step of bettering yourself. [...] As a Black Magician, yes I do strongly believe in metaphysics and Magic. It might seem as if my life revolves around it, but not necessarily. My own personal goal is achieving my own means Magically/Non Magically, I am practical on my approach as a Magician. On my previous statement in which you were expecting a concrete answer, it may had seem complex of what my statement was implying. I was speaking both non metaphysically and metaphysically on that separation from the cosmos.

Yes I still personally find certain interactions with people in a society to be interesting and fun to that regard, but at the same time I'll always know that I am superior than the rest. As arrogantly as this may sound, that is a part of my elitist view as the one who is superior than the rest, I am not implying of course the dumb argument that the "Satanist is better than the other Satanist" nonsense. I regard those who are on the same path as I am, as a fellow Elect.
Well no, I already felt separate from society much earlier, converting didn't make a difference really.

And I don't have the impression of being superior to the rest overall, many people have skills of daily life that I'm still developing. How would you distinguish between someone who is on the path from someone who isn't?

Also, society isn't one coherent group of people anyway - my academic colleagues are different from my relatives (which also vary a lot), which are different from my teachers of yoga, qi gong and the like, which are different from my neighbors... and based on what I see in the news, there are parts of society that I have no connections to whatsoever.

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(If you have trouble understanding, since English is probably your secondary language. I can try my best to clarify those misunderstandings)
Not sure whether that plays a role - yes English isn't my native language but I use it more often than my native language nowadays, especially at work. But thanks for your willingness to help.

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The reason why I frown upon the collectivist or egalitarian nature of things is 1) I find it non achievable to my own personal individuality/individual quest on my Path. You can of course argue that some people find egalitarianism/collectivism to be a betterment upon themselves, nothing wrong with that, everyone's different to that extent.
Yes, that was basically my point. Whenever I hear an explanation by TSTers of how their socialist approach fits in with Satanism, it's basically this one.

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Entertainment / Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
« on: August 29, 2020, 06:27:24 pm »
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And while spending time outside of society is nice, there is much opportunity for personal growth found in interacting with society.

But could you give some examples? I think you mean something different.

I believe that once you are journeying within the Path of Darkness you already know that you are outside of the cosmic flow in this Objective bubble permanently. As strong a word "permanently" is, once you Journey within the Left Hand Path you start to of course come to two conclusions, 1) The Path is for you 2) The Path is not for you. The way I see it, is that once you realize that the Path of Darkness is for you. You notice that you are unique in a sense, "what separates you from the rest." And you will remain as that separate part from the rest, for all eternity. As extreme this sounds, I regard this as the reality once you step on that Darker Plane outside of this existence.

I hope this can clarify a bit from what you are looking for.
Hm, not really, I was rather looking for a more concrete explanation than a metaphysical one.
Also, I'm a pantheist, so I obviously have some different opinions from yours regarding separateness from the cosmos.
Or do you really mean just societal? If anything I've moved closer to society since converting (by getting to know people and making friends) than away from it, as this path has been helping me with social anxiety. My impression of my uniqueness has also rather decreased than increased.
I mean, I'm still ultimately only heeding to myself, but that was already the case long before I ever heard of Satanism.

23
Entertainment / Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
« on: August 27, 2020, 11:22:23 am »
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Regarding the watchdog metaphor, I don't think you need to be invested in herding other people in order to be a Satanist.

Also, you seem to equate Satanism with atheism?

I wasn't necessarily implying "herding" other people to be exact. [...]

I also wasn't trying to equate Satanism with "Atheism." Apologies for the misunderstanding.
Yes, I wasn't sure whether you meant things that way, thanks for clarifying.
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What I mean as a watchdog is one who is outside of the society within that physical Universe. One you might say that primarily sits on the throne and watches the events unfold and how the herd primarily clashes within those events in which the Satanist/LHPer laugh's at.
Sure watching events unfold from outside can be fun, and just watching what will happen instead of fighting against it is more relaxing.
And while spending time outside of society is nice, there is much opportunity for personal growth found in interacting with society.

But could you give some examples? I think you mean something different.

I still may disagree with you on that, personally if an organization has a collectivist approach whether it be viewed as "personal values" in which its every members mission, that would still be in conforming with that line. I come from a LaVeyan/Setian School of thought, in which I have a traditional approach to the Left Hand Path. I have no interest in sharing the so called equality or being like everyone else/helping parts of society, since I personally find it illogical in my own personal goal within the Path of Darkness. You can argue that certain organizations that you might consider on the Left Hand Path to be collectivist and that this idea fits perfectly etc. But at the same time, if you look at Organizations including ours we do not hold the collectivist view. Since many of us are individualistic in our approaches.
Well I also don't have much investment in equality for all. I don't mind it, and usually I benefit from it, but it's nothing I would list as a value of mine. But many people feel quite strongly about it, or at least about supporting certain groups of people or fighting against certain forms of inequality. Now you can either say that this means they can't be Satanists or that it means that they need to overcome that part of their psyche to become proper Satanists. But if it's a central part of someone's psyche, then it would seem much more in line with Satanism to me to accept that and act in line with it.
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If one has a group of same minded people with the same views/goals, you would be in the conformist bubble.
If you want to put effort into a goal, being in an organization with other people with the same goal as your own seems very helpful. Just because people share one goal they don't necessarily share their whole worldview, so there is still room for discussions between different perspectives. Also, one needn't be in only one group.

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And at the same time, if you have someone or an organization who says that they are going with the antinomianistic/heterodox approach and at the same time believes in equality for all, where is the logic in that?
Improvements regarding equality for all may enable people to pursue an antinomianistic/heterodox approach in the first place. So some people might feel grateful for having that opportunity and may want to make sure other people have it as well.

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Agreed. TST's 7 tenets inform morality enough for me to consider it a standalone religion, but there isn't as much of a focus on individual (or spiritual) development. Most actions appear aeonic in nature.

LHP traditions utilize the strength of the individual to strengthen tradition. TST uses the strength of its shared ideology. As time has gone on I've come to really appreciate the separation of my magic from my religious philosophies, and that very seperation is encouraged by the community.
Dunno whether TST itself provide much content for individual/spiritual development, I think you're right they don't. But among TSTy Satanism, it doesn't seem as neglected. I mean, as a group one usually does group rituals, but the rituals e.g. this group provides are for spiritual/psychological benefits, not political ones:
http://www.satanicbayarea.com/resources/satanic-rituals-guide-bay-area-black-mass/
While they are group rituals (even though one could adapt them to solitary rituals), the focus is on change in the individual.
It's fairly basic spiritual work, it doesn't need any previous skills basically. So it's not about spiritual development proper as in the form of a curriculum of pathworkings, shadow work, meditation skills etc., but it still contributes to spiritual development.

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Entertainment / Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
« on: August 26, 2020, 05:21:25 pm »
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And I wouldn't agree that Satanism is only for "alphas", which might also be something I took the wrong way.
I personally believe strongly in Satanic elitism, I am not implying however on the kind of elitism where the Atheist is smarter and better than the Theist. But on the Elitism vs. the rest of the (herd) or non elect. I regard the elect you might say as the watch dogs of the herd, including society or the (Aeon, you might say). Being that Elect is not only being the Prince of Darkness's kind, but also by bettering yourself as that elect outside of the rest of the non elect.

Bettering yourself yes, that's certainly part of Satanism. And I agree, one doesn't have to start at an elite position in order to be a Satanist.

Regarding the watchdog metaphor, I don't think you need to be invested in herding other people in order to be a Satanist.

Also, you seem to equate Satanism with atheism?

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I strongly agree that collectivism has no business with Satanism or the LHP, all you are primarily doing is being stuck on the right side of the Path. I laugh at the things I find on political ideologies being combined with Satanism, whether its on the far left or the far right, both of these politics have contradictions with the religion of darkness.
Depends on what you call collectivism. When TST is criticized as being collectivist, it's usually for helping underprivileged parts of society, which can easily be completely in line with the personal values and goals of the TST-members supporting it. If someone helps because "that's what good people do" or out of peer-pressure, I'd agree calling that RHPy. If someone does so based on their personal values, that's a different thing.

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Reading / Re: Infernal Geometry
« on: August 23, 2020, 07:13:02 pm »
Thanks for the informative post about this book. This one is near the top of my to-get list. The theory of angles has piqued my interest as of late after reading the Book of Smokeless Fire. Angles are mentioned quite a bit in that book as well although I agree with you on the point that I've never felt "affected" by them before in homes and buildings.
Thanks, you're very welcome. Perhaps you wanna add your impressions once you got around to reading it. And it's good to know that you had the same (lack of) experience regarding angles.

S. Ben Qayin seems to also have some experiences with the Lovecraftian deities, so it's not surprising if he'd also use part of that system even in a fairly unrelated book.

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Reading / Re: The Book of Smokeless Fire
« on: August 23, 2020, 07:09:07 pm »
I do find it a bit skeptical though that he managed to summon all 72 of these Djinn within the book.
Qayin is a scary dude. I've watched a few interviews with him on YouTube and he seems to have a very certain aura to him...
Watched a few videos with him now (including interviews - must have been at least partially the same, there aren't that many on YT) and I didn't get the same impression.
Seems like a very level-headed person who stresses a lot the importance of harmonious relationships and a balanced path and of not using malicious magick without reason.
His work with the djinn seems to have been an exception based on that.

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Entertainment / Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
« on: August 23, 2020, 01:11:12 pm »
Surprised antifa is as influential in Brazil and that they bother with protesting concerts. Considering the government and what I hear about things there in general, I would think they have more important battles to fight.

But considering that antifa is not one organization but just a banner under which people group, no surprise. And I encountered similarly thoughtless reactions here in Germany, with concerts being cancelled because antifa people considered anyone nazi who made medieval folk metal because of course only nazis can be interested in paganism or medieval literature.

Interesting view of the 7 tenets being in line with LaVeyan Satanism.

His complaints regarding certain actions of TST aren't something I find as convincing - I could see how the respective actions are done based on motivations quite in line with what he describes as Satanism. Yet he probably knows the people who were involved, or at least some of them, so he can judge their motives better than I may. Similarly, I would have some different political opinions (e.g. regarding 2nd amendment, and I'd also not be as convinced that starting one's own business is guarantee to success) but I can't really argue for or against some stuff of what he says as it's about US-specific issues and person-specific issues so he obviously knows more about it.

He also says a couple stuff that could be taken the wrong way. And I wouldn't agree that Satanism is only for "alphas", which might also be something I took the wrong way. But overall seems like quite a decent guy. I remember watching some other, shorter interview by him a few years back getting a different impression, so either he changed or that one didn't bring his point across well.

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Lounge / Re: Meta discussion
« on: August 22, 2020, 11:43:58 am »
Thanks for the reply, Onyx.

Now I'm no lawyer, but I think the statement needs to be adjusted a bit: There needs to be some way for users to request deletion of data stored at any time.
You could of course say this is possible for anyone by clicking "remove" on all their comments, yet I'm not sure whether that legally suffices.

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Regarding TST as an organization, I agree.

But regarding TST and related groups as a group of people of the same religion, it also fulfills spiritual/psychological purposes for its members, as exemplified also by the ritual linked.

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