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Messages - Liu

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Discordianism has been with me long before I had any idea of the LHP or even of spirituality in general.

I read the Principia first in my early teens I think, and now I come back to it every couple of years to refresh my memory.
It has contributed to my adogmatic worldview, and Discordia is one of the names I commonly use to refer to my deity.
What I like about it most is not even the tongue-in-cheek-approach, even though I love that, but the actual metaphysical parts about chaos being the fundamental principle.

But the writings themselves? They are a bit too dadaist for me to really do much anything with them. They are like that kind of art that one can appreciate for how it's done exactly, but which inspires not by its specific form but by the general idea behind it.
Also, while I have my fair share of religious titles I would use as self-description towards myself (from priest to devotee to monk etc.), calling myself a pope wouldn't cross my mind normally.

Satanism / Re: On the question of if CoS is LHP:
« on: June 20, 2018, 03:37:09 pm »
You beat me to it, @Kapalika. Full agreement.

Except for one point which I would like to elaborate on a bit more:

Second, LaVeyan Satanism goes out of it's way to DEBASE things like human consciousness and will, which it entirely RHP. Not to mention we see him upholding the statements like you'd expect in Catholic Church. With Gilmore himself saying this, and all the love to my CoS friends in the world, I have to say this kind of conclusively settles the debate.
Saying consciousness and will is a part of nature is not debasing it, and if they thereby say that everything that exists is a part of nature, then it logically follows that it's a delusion to believe in something that is not part of nature since it then per definition doesn't exist.
So, from that statement by Gilmore itself I wouldn't draw any conclusions on it being RHPy.

But from how he states it, namely as a dogma, and from how dogmatically the CoS behaves in general, that could be considered RHP by some definitions in that it seems to stifle individuality.

Lounge / Re: Introduction
« on: June 18, 2018, 07:27:48 pm »

As a pantheistic Satanist I can very much relate to your view of Satan being nature (while also considering the mind etc to be a part of nature).
I'm fluctuating between theism and atheism quite a bit.

And atheistic LHP certainly is a thing. But I don't intend to go down that road of defining the LHP again now...

@Olive Thank you very much for the explanation! I didn't give planetary hours much attention thus far, and I didn't realize that idea is that old. That makes a lot of sense. So it's not about jumping ahead 2 but going back 4.

@Liu pretty spot on associations.

Regarding Saturn, I associate it with binding contracts. I suppose that is somehow synonymous with a work or organizational role.

I don't associate Eris with much of anything. I suppose I've merged most of those associations with Mercury. Nice addition.
After writing them down like that I realized that they currently are a bit closer to the traditional associations than I had had the impression. It's very much by chance, though, as I didn't really give the original names much thought. For example associating Jupiter with health and transitioning (which still seems a bit outlandish to me) came about because I associated that one with Leviathan (as the subconscious and therefore bridge between body and mind). Don't ask me how I decided on that, I think it had something to do with the Chinese element associated with Jupiter (which would be wood), but it was like 3 years ago.

I mainly included Eris as an eighth because I was (and still kinda am) also using this system for some kind of calendar based on 8 seasons (based on the equinoxes etc.). And because Discordia.

@Liu not sure about the Chaldean order.

In what other ways do you associate the other planetary bodies (Saturn, Jupiter, etc)?

Moon: theoretical knowledge/reading/language learning

Jupiter: health (plus things related to gender transitioning)

Saturn: organizing/job/household

Sun: practical knowledge/sciences

Eris: gaming, movies etc. (earlier I associated that one with arts)

Most went through a lot of meaning shifts, as you can guess (would have to look through my old notes which meanings I gave them earlier), and I mainly also didn't refer to them by their planetary names but had a bunch of other mythological characters that I associated with them, and now I only use the colours. Didn't take it far spiritually, though, as I said, mainly for journaling and things like that (even though that of course can have a huge spiritual component).

Ok. Thanks @Liu I see it now.
Welcome. Btw, that doesn't seem to be the only bug here - in my likes notifications, I see that I got a like by mesubetesh on each of the first 3 of my posts in this thread, but in this thread itself I only see "(1 person liked this)" beneath the first 2, not beneath the one in which I linked the sigil image.

But most commonly, I use and see planetary associations used. Saturn=black, Jupiter=blue, Mars=red, Sun=Yellow, Venus=Green, Mercury=Orange. Or you could do elemental, in which case green or black is often used for earth.

Just popping in to say - How could you list all other classical planets and leave out the Moon? For shame, Nemo!  ;)  I commonly use white candles to honor her, though other colors can sometimes be appropriate.

I have found over the years that planetary associations are much more potent than I originally gave them credit for when I started my practice. There really is very little difference between the ancient concepts of "Gods" and "Planets" when you get down to it. Here are the seven, in the Chaldean ordering of antiquity.

Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, The Sun, Venus, Mercury, and The Moon.

I noticed it before but I never found an explanation: Why is the Chaldean order so obviously related to the order of the weekdays that correspond to the planets, but always skipping one day?
Perhaps you who are a bit more knowledgeable about planetary symbolism know?

I perhaps should delve more into the traditional associations, too. A while ago I developed a personal symbolism, based one the 7 planets (+ an additional one) in combination to the 8 colours of magick, and a lot of personal reinterpretations. Mainly using it atm for colour-coding my personal notes/goalsetting, but it has developed quite a bit from the original meanings.
I mean, relating Venus to the arts, Mars to sports and even Mercury to spirituality kinda are close to the original, but the rest are all over the place and perhaps I might currently benefit from moving that back closer to the tradition in order to make it easier for me to benefit from traditional correspondences etc.

Any recommendations where to start?

General LHP Discussion / Re: I'm done with Horus/RHP (rant)
« on: June 13, 2018, 06:06:44 pm »
"How do you align "pleasure is just a product of evolution" with "bliss is the fundamental state of being of the divine"?[/size]I mean, I enjoy believing the latter, too, but who knows whether feeling ananda is just being high on bhakti and holds no metaphysical truth to it?"

pleasure =/= ananda

language fails to convey it, but ananda is a totally different experience. It's more like a peaceful, neutral calm. I think we naturally find this blissful but it's two part, one part our evolutionaryily geared reaction to aligning with nature, and another nature itself being purely neutral when not in movement, light or darkness. If our nature was fundamentally different, we might not experience ananda at these states, but we could still accomplish them. I could see for how some intelligent, totally foreign beings that are nothing like us either in mind or evolution they might find it like a deafening silence that drives them mad.

Perhaps then, in that light, it's just how you frame and feel about the nothingness and yet unlimited potential of the void and Abyss, of the unformed aspect of Shiva, Satan in it's pure state of opposition where it cancels out everything else into a pure sea of gray, ash and blackness. The cosmos empty of expression, right before the canvas is painted. Right as it is painted, after it is painted, and yet you see and experience all around you not as a subject or observer, but as part of the flowing existence of particles and energy and yet still conscious.

To just exist without influence or attachment. To simply be. Some surely find that terrifying. I don't. There is always the canvas to paint the universe or myself in any way once I reach that state, if I were to wish it in that moment of becoming God.
Strange that it then always gets translated as "bliss" or similar.
Also the translations here wouldn't lead me to understand it as what you describe:
I guess it's not even a lost in translation but a misnomer in the original language, but I see how that's difficult to put into words.

Thanks for the description in any case!
It kinda sounds like being in the flow but without actually necessarily doing anything. Or like being that vast nothingness of one's awareness, detached from all thought or experience, but instead of one's thoughts/experiences simply disappearing from one's awareness and one's focus shifting onto oneself, the focus instead remains on those thoughts/experiences streaming through without one having any attachment to them.

I can see how that could be likened to a metaphysical default state, even if, me being the skeptic I am, I suppose it still might be merely psychological.

And while I wouldn't say I ever reached it, I have felt what seems to me glimpses of it, and this letting go of everything is quite cathartic and relaxing, so I kinda understand why it would be called ananda.

Strange, can see it in two different browsers.
Well, I had posted it here once: (3rd post from the bottom).
and took the image link from there.
So you can see it also in that thread.

A quite related symbolism to the broken Ouroboros would also be this one, the eleven angled sigil:

@mesubetesh Yeah, Watain have some pretty awesome art in some of their booklets.

Damn, I thought this one was from "The Devils Blood". Im seeing just now the other artworks from Lawless Darkness, beeautiful stuff!
Yeah, especially the two depictions of Cain are great, and that Kali-Baphomet:

The Devil's Blood have also awesome booklet designs, but pretty different style:

@mesubetesh Yeah, Watain have some pretty awesome art in some of their booklets.

The most extreme but somehow justifyable form of those who call themselves LHPers and still seem to want to dissolve themselves into the divine would be those chaos-gnostics who literally believe in chaos, and even those seem to believe that ultimately that chaos is their own true self and so even they are not really anti-self. Most of them at least.

The work in like Liber Isfet very much believe chaos had objective existence.
Wasn't claiming anything else. What I was saying was that some believe that (according to their beliefs) objectively existing extra-cosmic chaos to be their true self.
There always are also those who just interpret it all psychological, too.
Whatever works for them.

Not trying to nit-pick, but that really sounds like "LHP is occultism in general, as long as its not dogmatic."
That is how that term is often used.

I get that one can be into focusing on the psyche without being sure of its immortality. But deciding that the individual psyche isn't even real, or advocating for its dissolution into something impersonal, and calling that a way to exalt or develop that psyche is a bit much. And that's been my whole main point: advocating for the destruction of the individual Self (either by postulating that as a goal, or by simply destroying it from the get-go by saying it never was at all to begin with) as a form of "LHP" practice is a way of defining "LHP" in such a way that it's incompatible with any sense I (and I'm assuming the person who first asked how such a thing could be "LHP") use the phrase.
It still boils down to what we define as the individual self in any case, though.
I can still believe, as I do as a pantheist, that everything I am is merely a manifestation of the divine, and that the only truely permanent part of me (and of the divine) is awareness (plus probably some general laws of nature/logic).
I nevertheless would count myself as an LHPer as my spirituality is focused on shaping and exploring that psyche that I currently have and on doing so on my own terms, and since I even yet hope for some kind of immortality of that psyche.

The most extreme but somehow justifyable form of those who call themselves LHPers and still seem to want to dissolve themselves into the divine would be those chaos-gnostics who literally believe in chaos, and even those seem to believe that ultimately that chaos is their own true self and so even they are not really anti-self. Most of them at least.

Quote from: Liu
Ultimately you can't prove it either way with the knowledge we have.

I know I can't "prove" it to the satisfaction of those who demand empirical proof of such things. If I could, I'd be a rich and famous man.

All of this started by my response to someone asking how can a "LHP" group be against preserving the Self. After I gave a response to that, I've been giving my reasoning as to why I personally define "LHP" the way I do. And I still say that "LHP" should mean more than something that really amounts to saying "all non-dogmatic occultism is LHP." It should mean the decision to recognize and focus on the Individual Psyche. I joined these forums because I was under the impression that the forum was founded with the basic definition of "LHP" as understood in the works of Aquino and others from the ToS. If I had the wrong idea, and what the forum really means by "LHP" is "any and all forms of occultism that aren't traditional Abrahamic religion," then that was my mistake.
I would argue that non-dogmaticness and focus on the individual psyche are often quite related, though, even if both can occur without the other.

The forum was founded by Setians, but not all members are; it's open to pretty much anyone.

However, even without actively believing in the immortality of the psyche one can focus on its development, so I don't think we need to believe in the same metaphysics to have the same goals or at least methods.

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