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Messages - Liu

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1
Satanism / Re: making a list of notable Satanist organizations/sects
« on: September 16, 2018, 06:53:48 pm »
Perennial philosophy is the understanding that theistic belief systems share a single, universal doctrine. This doctrine posits that the highest good that human life can achieve is through the union with a Supreme Being / Energy of the Universe.

The way in which this is achieved is through the deception of one's conscious awareness into believing that one has been accepted by this Supreme Being / Energy. To absolve one's self into this is antithetic to the western left hand path goals of individuation and autotheism. To become More Than Human should ase the goal.

I would posit the thesis that perennial philosophy is wrong in this gross generalization.

Also, not like you are claiming this, but if this doctrine of theistic belief systems should turn out to be true, then that would mean that becoming a god oneself is only possible by the grace of the divine. If that is the case, then as an LHPer one should try and convince the divine to make one a god.

In Satanism, the divine is often seen as at least partially identical with oneself, and finding union with and acceptance of that is certainly not incompatible with the LHP.

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Symbolically, this resistance to perennialism is the basis of such occult structures as the Tree of Daath and the ideals behind furthering the Fall of the Tree of Life because it is an imperfect Tree and in its place, a new and perfected Tree (that of your subjective universe with you as god) is nurtured.
Not that I'd be a gnostic, but I'm familiar with the concept of the Tree of Death mainly from gnostic Satanism, and in it, union with the divine is actually the goal.

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The word Lucifer can be traced to the ancient ideals surrounding the myths associated with the Morningstar and his brother the Evening Star. Early on these myths place the Morningstar into the role of the attempted usurper who is defeated and becomes a ‘fallen’ deity as in Sumerian and Assyrian cosmology. It would not be until the Gnostics of the 1st century A.D. and Milton’s ‘Paradise Lost’ (1667 A.D.) found Lucifer to be the Serpent in the Garden of Eden and transformed the myth of the Fallen Morningstar into that of the angel Lucifer the principle of compassion for life and creation, defiance of corrupt authority and the current of spiritual evolution.

Satan, on the other hand, is an Abrahamic invention of scapegoating.

Yeah, yeah, I know all that, but you don't seem to have understood my point: The origins of a myth don't need to have anything to do with current beliefs nor with metaphysical truths (if there is something like that), and while interesting and a possible source for inspiration are basically irrelevant, except for investigating general tendencies of human thought.

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Satanism / Re: making a list of notable Satanist organizations/sects
« on: September 15, 2018, 09:50:35 pm »
I too have been at this for some time, I can remember when it was, for the most part, myself and Michael Ford progressing non-theistic Luciferianism, I have a very distinct understanding of 'theistic' anything and do not find any of it resonating on the western left hand path whatsoever. In my studies, I have found Lucifer to have little to no association with Satan nor with the Abrahamic faiths of which too many seem to draw parallels with, thanks to Milton and Jerome's Vulgate.

Well, I'm a theist, so my impression is not based on historical, fictional, or intellectual diversions in that regard. My impression is based on how I feel that energy -- to me they're the same and synonymous. I recognize that others have different understandings of that, and I'm fine with it. As far as comparing atheistic to theistic expressions it's simply an invalid comparison. Atheist expressions of the left-hand path lean on objectivity and known history where our theist is working in a psycho-spiritual medium. Neither of those possess an authority over the other, but rather are suited to different sorts of people. Some people read the Wiki. some have to be there with it and feel it for it to be real and no amount of scholarly diligence is relevant.

Though admittedly, this confusion is the bulk of what I've been writing about as of late. So rather than bit-by-bit chug through a subject which rightly deserves a discourse, I've been putting my efforts to that end.

I'm not even sure whether I'm an atheist or a theist. I'm an agnostic basically - I believe that my deity exists, but regarding what exactly it is, I consider several options to be possible, some of which would make me an atheist, some a theist and some depending on the definition.

And so I would use both of your approaches, but for different kinds of questions. Whether deities are the same in myths doesn't necessarily say anything about whether they are actually the same being, given that they actually exist, and finding that out is a matter of spiritual experiences if possible at all. And regarding the myths, they are not set in stone - we can surely say that at this and this time, in that and that culture, a name was used or not used for a given deity, or that a given deity was associated with or not with certain attributes, if we have that information, but it doesn't say anything about how people at other times and places think about these matters. And it certainly doesn't say anything about whether there is some underlying truth in these things or whether it's all just made-up bullshit.
I don't see how theism per se could be incompatible with the LHP if it's a theism based on experience, on seeing religion as the social construct that it is and making up one's own mind about spiritual matters. Even if the goal of the LHP is self-deification, if on that path one finds out that there most likely is one or more deities and that to venerate it/them is in line with one's will and beneficial to one's spiritual evolution, then doing anything else would be much less appropriate to the LHP.

Well, to come back to the question whether Lucifer is Satan:
For me personally, the only important deity is the devil.
Perhaps there is also an entity that might be called Lucifer and not Satan and/or the other way round, who knows. But I feel that both names are appropriate ones for my deity as the myths etc. associated with them point to certain characteristics I associate with it. For reasons of practicality I treat that as if it was the truth but I consider the actual truth to be basically unknowable.

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Satanism / Re: making a list of notable Satanist organizations/sects
« on: September 15, 2018, 07:56:18 pm »
Then why are other non-Satanic organizations being mentioned here? e.g. Luciferians are not Satanists.

I've been at this for awhile, I certainly consider Theistic Luciferians in the same vane as Theistic Satanists. Our beliefs, practices, and whatnot are similar. Generally what is different is aesthetic -- they prefer different names or different texts. I'd say they're nearly identical other than their rejection of Judeo-Christian names.
I wouldn't consider Lucifer a non-Judeo-Christian name. Of course it originally is Latin, but you then could say that "devil" is non-Judeo-Christian because it originally was some Greek word. (Disregarding the fact that all the names of our deity can be used in non-Judeo-Christian contexts anyway and the fact that "devil" is also used as a general term for other entities of any religion.)

Just a feeling, but I think Luciferians tend to put more stress on the Promethian aspects and focus on morality and justice whereas Satanists, at least compared to Luciferians, are more about amorality and self-centeredness.
Exceptions prove the rule: the MLO (at least by name Luciferian) is certainy not interested much in social justice, The Satanic Temple on the other hand certainly is.

Then why are other non-Satanic organizations being mentioned here? e.g. Luciferians are not Satanists.
Depends on whom you ask.
I'm not familiar with those two Luciferian groups - but wouldn't surprise me if the members of at least one of them actually identify as Satanists.

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Satanism / Re: making a list of notable Satanist organizations/sects
« on: September 15, 2018, 02:36:02 pm »
I think ONA basically just embraces any edgy manifestation, so that's all Satanism is to them. Many of them are playing with Islam. I wouldn't say their focus was ever on satanic religion. ONA lingo is an entirely different can of worms, and a belief system on top of all others.
When I read parts of Liber Azerate or some other TotBL-material a while ago some sections seemed to be inspired by writings of the ONA (in content and terminology). I don't remember which ones, though, but therefore my assumption of some relation between the groups.

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It's also probably worth mentioning but there is nearly no difference between Theistic Luciferians and Satanists. It's probably wise to combine them in most cases. (Probably to their frustration... :))
At least not more difference than between any two theistic Luciferians or Satanists.
Well, some Luciferians (and a few Satanists) stress how Satan and Lucifer are different entities, though.

What would define a Satanic group?
Consisting of more than 2 people that call themselves Satanists.

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Music / Re: Moderately cheezy 'occult' musicians
« on: September 13, 2018, 07:25:39 pm »
I'm not familiar with either of the artists. Might check them out.

In any case, I prefer it when artists who write spiritual lyrics also stand behind them. I mean, they don't need to mean everything in there literally, but it should at least have something to do with their philosophy.
But of course, if things are written well, then I might enjoy them nevertheless. I have even used parts of Ghost's lyrics in prayers before, regardless of what the author intended by writing them.

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General LHP Discussion / Re: So far successful sigil for faster work days.
« on: September 13, 2018, 06:20:33 pm »
Finally tried it out today, it worked well, maybe too well and I didn't get as much done as I had hoped lol.
Yeah, pretty much why I'm really reluctant to use it. My work isn't about clocking in from 9 to 5 but about doing research and writing publications, so having less time would actually be disadvantageous. Perhaps I should try the opposite one before a deadline ^^

7
Great! Yeah, with it being a contest and all, in next rounds we might want to have someone who doesn't participate to whom we send our submissions so they get all published simultaneously, but it's fine this way, too.

In any case, I did a thing:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j1u1tsaxky8txpi/World.svg

I decided to combine the personification of the world, the serpent around it and the elements into one being. The result looks basically like a tortoise with really long neck and tail. On its shell, head and neck, you find symbols corresponding to the 6 elements: The 5 platonic bodies standing for fire, water, air, earth and spirit (active), and the heptagramm representing spirit (passive). That last one is not the traditional representation as far as I know (no idea what would be the traditional one), but it fits into the number row well enough and 7 traditionally represents purity, unchangeability etc.

There is lots more symbolism in it (e.g. in the choice of where the elements are placed on the body), but I'll let you think about that yourselves for now.

In total, it represents how the seemingly objective and subjective parts of existence form one whole.

Btw, the second time I ever used a vector software, so no idea how to make the lines any smoother, and I also didn't put that much effort in making the geometrical shapes fully regular. The heptagram is just copy-pasted from Wikipedia. If anyone has any tips for me, they are appreciated!

(embedding a dropbox-link as picture doesn't seem to work:

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Announcements / Re: Problems with the forum
« on: September 11, 2018, 04:25:01 pm »
I like how we can get notification emails when someone tags us.

But there seem to be two bugs with the notification system:

In the email it doesn't mention the current username but the original one of the one tagging you - so when @Kapalika tagged me, the email said I was tagged by Shamira.

And when I go to Profile -> Mentions (i.e. http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=mentions;u=61), it says
"Database Error
Please try again. If you come back to this error screen, report the error to an administrator."

Since I saw the same error already a few weeks back I guess I should report it now ;)

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Lounge / Re: Hello-INTRO (dedicated Aquarian)
« on: September 11, 2018, 04:18:15 pm »
Welcome!
Seems like you have quite a bit of life-experience for your fairly young age (and a ton less care for what other people think than I tend to have).

Kundalini is also something that I think I have experience with - or perhaps it's something different, what I feel has some parallels to what I read/heard about it, but also some differences. And for me, it doesn't seem related to how I breathe whatsoever.

Kundalini is the Hindu anthropomorphized description of the spiral dorsal energy flow up the back of the spine from the perineum. If youve unblocked your dorsal channel and thus had a "kundalini awakening" its usually almost always a life changing NDE/OBE that mindfucks the person for a while. Lol. Its almost always related to your breath! Thats what moves the blood! Powers the CNS! Its all in the breath
Well, what I experience has a lot to do with energy along the spine, and while it does fairly often feel pretty intense I would guess I hadn't had a full awakening yet. Perhaps you wanna start a thread on that where we could discuss this more in detail?

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Lounge / Re: Hello-INTRO (dedicated Aquarian)
« on: September 10, 2018, 06:24:26 pm »
Welcome!
Seems like you have quite a bit of life-experience for your fairly young age (and a ton less care for what other people think than I tend to have).

Kundalini is also something that I think I have experience with - or perhaps it's something different, what I feel has some parallels to what I read/heard about it, but also some differences. And for me, it doesn't seem related to how I breathe whatsoever.

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Satanism / Re: Official Warnings on Fundamentalist Pseudo-Satanism
« on: September 10, 2018, 04:21:52 pm »
You should add The Satanic Temple to that list, they're about politics/activism not Satanism. :D
I beg to differ - from my impression of interviews etc. by some of their members, at least some of them are religious (even if atheistic with few exceptions).
Sure we could argue to no end whether they are "true Satanists" or not. But in any case, I don't think they need to be avoided, at least by far not as much as other examples in this thread.

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I finished mine 8)
Should I just post it in this thread?

13
Satanism / Re: "Satanized" by King Satan, your thoughts?
« on: September 09, 2018, 11:19:47 am »
Took a look at a few of the interview's linked on the band's website.
This one is in Finnish (which I don't speak) but the Google translation is understandable for the most part: https://www.inferno.fi/uutiset/henkilokohtaisen-ranttayksen-ja-paholaiskuvaston-valista-vuoropuhelua-ennakkosoitossa-king-satan/
and contains some info on the meanings of the lyrics.

On the song discussed here:
Quote from: Google translate
- From the message of the song, to many satanists themselves, there seems to be a different view of Satanism among themselves. There are schools from Lavey Church Of Satan to theistic Satanism, etc. What connects them to all schools? What is the essence of "Satanism" when it removes, for example, the goddesses and symbol language, and what is left behind? What's the point? I claim that many who do not even know "Satanism," are more righteous Satanists than many "Satanists" themselves! (It's just a word that refers to something).
[...]
- The songs were made by DJ Instixx and DJ Mekhanik, and this is also the only song on this album, which I did not have a part or lot for the bi-teatar / drum section. Instead of the original plan, Kate signed the "die-hard" religious inspiration for orthodox Christianity to "submit to the Lord". At times, the tone of the whole declaration changes when gender changes but words do not.

So, guess I was correct in my impression that it's a (quite successful) try to combine different approaches.
The translation of the 2nd part is more difficult to understand, but seems like at least it was Kate's own decision to do her part of the song like that, whatever the actual motivation.

In some other interviews the main singer mentions that he's a chaos magician.

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Other Religions / Re: How would you describe the LHP?
« on: September 06, 2018, 07:26:08 pm »
I have no idea, for example, what a metaphorical "light and dark" are supposed to be.
The metaphorical light and dark I was mainly thinking of while writing my previous post is the idiomatic usage to refer to something your don't understand as obscure or dark, and something you understand as clear. And also of the related metaphor of the subconscious as dark as it's not visible.
Not the only metaphors in use, though, like the one you are referring to here:
It's sort of like stealing a tyrants words to express his tyranny... In this case, the tyrant being the religions which claim they are of the light, etc. To feel something is "dark" is simply to categorize yourself according to their chosen hierarchy. What use is that other than to play their game?
Good question. But do we really? When I would refer to a deity or a spiritual approach as "dark" I normally use criteria for that which to me seem to be not based on which deities are shunned in general by any specific religion, but which have certain characteristics that make them, basically, un-fluffy, for lack of a better term :D So I would also call Shiva a dark deity. It is a bit hard to describe what criteria I actually use for that, because normally I don't think about why a deity is dark or not. But I would e.g. not call Venus a dark deity, even if she is certainly shunned by major religions. Which is strange, now that I think of it, since she's also not exactly fluffy. Gotta put a bit more thought into that. Thanks for bringing it up.

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Other Religions / Re: How would you describe the LHP?
« on: September 06, 2018, 04:42:11 pm »
"The Will and Way of freeing one's self from all chains of bondage. All else is dogma."
Summary in order to not derail the thread too much:
A key point of the LHP is finding balance between extremes. That's part of the reason why the image of Baphomet, which represents this concept, is used widely by us.
Again within H☿D, a foundational philosophy we call the Primacy of Darkness maintains there are no dualities, extremes or opposites to bring into balance with one another. Rather everything is truly unique unto itself and not lacking anything else, e.g. Darkness is not the absence of Light rather it is the womb in which Light can be born.

The Baphomet, for us, also epitomizes this philosophy as it symbolizes the Harmony of All Things instead of a balance of opposites. Duality is a delusion of Yesod, and through
the gnosis of Lilith and Naamah, it is shown how there are really only singularities of which 'we' assign into pairs of perceived opposites.
I wasn't necessarily talking about dualities (except for very basic ones like doing something or doing something not), but about opposite ends of a scale, and about aspects of one's psyche/will that would exclude each other for practical reasons if one were to put too much focus on one of them e.g. since you then simply have no time for the others.

And you gotta elaborate a bit on how darkness isn't the absence of light. I mean, sure that's not the only thing to it, but even if we're talking not physical but metaphorical darkness and light, absence of light is one crucial aspect of darkness. (Unless you were to be into the theory that there are no photons but that light is the absence of darkness-particles, but well, let's not go there for now...)

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