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Re: Push Back from the OU Just a thought, but perhaps trying to distinguish yourself discrete from the objective universe might sometimes disconnect your spiritual self from your physical/mental needs as a human. Your mind/soul is, at least while you are alive, confined to your brain, which needs the rest of the body. So it makes sense that your mind and body would fight to stay connected to that which is preserving it and not take well to anything that creates in an incongruity with normal perception.

As humans we are inter-dependent on our environment for survival, so we should keep that in mind even as we explore the path of self deification.

April 28, 2017, 06:42:20 am
Re: The Prince of Darkness living separately from the OU My view is probably a little different, but I would say that it's reflected within ourselves and in the physical Universe as well. That it manifests in a variety of ways. I have an emenational model that explains how this all works, and the inter-dependence of the microcosm and macrocosm (subjective and objective universe, as you will).

With that said, I don't think that The Prince of Darkness, Satan, Set, whatever you want to call it, exists separate from anything but is the sum of everything as the total whole of the system. What I mean by that is, it on it's own is identifiable as discrete even though it is that which makes things indiscreet from each other, including itself.

I wouldn't say that it's a subjective universe/microcosm unto itself in the most primal form, as that would necessitate that it has to rely on, or had at one point, the/a physical universe. Rather I see this most primal level as the inherent aspects of reality that allowed the creative force to exist in the first place. It's essentially a foundation on which everything else is built.

Interestingly in my belief system, there is a potential point of liberation/realization that simultaneously cements the individual as having all these/the characteristics of The Prince of Darkness/Satan/ect while also individuating them as a distinct personality of it. In the most literal sense one actually becomes a literal god.

Which brings me to how we experience Prince of Darkness/Satan/Set ect, as a personality. I would propose that these are potentially subjective universes that we interact with and may of once been flesh and blood beings like ourselves. They would be equally distinct and indistinct from other things, even though they are infinitely more themselves as personalities than any normal consciousness. This is achieved by taking on the qualities of the most primal form of the Prince of Darkness/ect which transforms that limited individual consciousness into universal consciousness, but since it still maintains doership it is still a discrete personality even though it is aware of other personalities that also exist as universal consciousness. It's still totally itself, the same personality that it was as a limited consciousness but with "upgraded" characteristics that allow it to manifest it's will in the greatest way possible.

So to me, the Prince of Darkness when experienced as an intelligence is several such personalities that are either similar or have similar goals, and that they likely are microcosms/SU's onto themselves.

Them having universal consciousness actually explains their source of power, and is a potential way to explain almost-supernatural like phenomena of Greater Black Magick. What I mean is, when a god exerts their will or someone performs Greater Black Magick with great success it is because for a brief moment they slightly entered into universal consciousness and were able to warp physical reality to their will. This is because the Physical/objective/macrocosm is the expression of the will of things with that quality of universal consciousness.

I apologize if that sounds complex or my explanation was lacking, you kind of have to 'get' the entire system on a sufficient level to fully understand the implications of any  constituent part and so it can be a little dense approaching it from the outside. Reading on it sometimes even I get kinda lost. But once you start to 'get' it you realize that the difficulties of understanding is mostly issues of language, not of the ideas themselves, other than perhaps being alien at first to most people.

If anyone is interested, I can talk more on this subject, or reveal my sources, but I first want honest opinions. Not that I am accusing anyone here of it, but I know how opinionated us Left Hand Path folks can be myself included about other groups/sources and sometimes that causes us to dismiss something without taking the time to understand the actual content fully.

May 21, 2017, 03:07:03 am
Re: Creativity and Selfhood I do cool trippy Satanic music:

hm... do we not have HTML boxes or support for embedding soundcloud?

The Left Hand Path, Luciferianism, Satanism, ect are pretty big themes in my music. It's often a dark, ancient and forgotten like feeling so lots of mystery. Very Psychedelic, with industrial and metal influences. That one in particular is a good example of those themes.

May 21, 2017, 03:41:05 am
Re: Platonic Argument Against Materialism
1. Materialism requires Platonism to be correct.

2. Platonism proves materialism incorrect.

3. Therefore, it would be paradoxical for materialism to be correct.

Why number 1? Platonism recognizes things like natural kinds and the existence of Forms - objective characteristics that provide the essence of objects. If Platonism is not true then all characteristics, identification, etc are simple mental fabrications. Without it science itself would not be possible, for science relies on the being objective characteristics to study.

Why number 2? Rather obviously Forms and natural kinds and such are not material. If immaterial things are necessary for the world then materialism cannot be true.

Why 3? Because to reject Platonism would reject all that led to and supports physicalism. If characteristics and categories are only assigned by the brain, this is the exact opposite of materialism. And yet this is one of the most common objections to Platonism.

There's two major holes in this argument.

The first is that you don't explain why Materialism requires Platoism. I'm not sure why you say Platoism contradicts materialism while simultaneously claiming that materialism needs Platoism. If both are mutually exclusive then they do not require one another.

The second is related; you have some circular logic by using Platoism as both an axiom and the conclusion, and you don't have any other axioms.

But if Platoism is an axiom, there really isn't anything further than recognizing that materialism contradicts Platoism.

If Platoism is the conclusion, then you need to start with your axioms and see if they naturally and logically lead to Platoism, then once that is proven then you can easily deduce that materialism is false like noted above except that Platoism wouldn't be an axiom, but a statement previously proven.

More practically speaking, confirmed evidence of non-physical phenomena in repeatable, double blind experimentation would be all that is needed to disprove Materialism. I'm not sure specifically would would be needed to give direct evidence of Platoism in the same way. As I understand it Platoism isn't falsifiable and so it can't be proven or disproven. That would make it purely in the realm of the philosophical and it would only be useful to argue about it with logic alone, but that runs into the problem that axioms are assumptions and so you can't convince anyone with different axioms.

May 21, 2017, 04:36:28 am
non-metal occult music The reason I wanted to make this topic is, because admit it, the majority of Satanic, occult, LHP whatever music is Metal which is really popular and so that's gonna be virtually all that is posted in the main music thread.

Not that anything is wrong with metal, I love metal. But I just got burned out on it somewhat after listening to it my entire life, and electronic music isn't so highly distorted that I have issues making out the individual musical ideas even in good conditions. Plus metal tends to be overtly angry or aggressive, and as I've gotten older I've not related to those feelings as much anymore.

I only really know of various electronic dance genres and hip-hop / rap acts outside of metal, for Satanic music. So that will be what I put here but feel free to post anything from any genre outside of metal here. Consider this the place to listen to something different, like a hot-tub soak before jumping back in the pool that is the other topic. Or reverse that if you're someone like me.

One group I've kept an eye on, Beyond the Fallen, is a good example to start off, their genre is Aggrotech. They are like metal so you can get your feet wet first comfortably... "Unleash The Beast":

One act in dark psychedelic trance, Baphomet Engine has some hits like "Satanic Temple" and Flower of Pain" but my favorite by them has always been Mechanism of Infection:

A third and final one (for now) is Asphyxia, who are electro-industrial. A lot of their stuff isn't specifically occult or Satanic, but it essentially is in spirit (to me). And add on that themes like occultism are VERY common in electro-industrial:

May 21, 2017, 05:02:34 am
Re: non-metal occult music Sweet, I'll check those out.

I was looking on my computer just now, and now listening to it, found it and had totally forgotten about it:

With a name and title like God Destruction and Prometheus you know it's gonna be a good time. Based on just the song it's electro-industrial for sure but slightly on the atmospheric side (and so melody is less prominent). It's still very cyber gothic though.

May 25, 2017, 01:07:22 am
Re: Atheism and Physicalism have become a joke (semi-rant) I don't usually get into debates like that in any serious capacity. There is a certain standard though that if broken enough causes me to just ignore them entirely. I try to put myself in their shoes though, and be slow to judge and quick to have some compassion but sometimes someone is set on never even so much as making some slight revisions to what they were taught or believe. You know an intellectually honest person when you know they have changed at least some of their views on things in the past.

Also I dislike saying that people troll, unless they are insincere and are trying to stir up trouble. Troll has kind of lost it's meaning the last few years I feel like.

June 15, 2017, 08:42:02 pm
Re: Not a Setian?
The term "Ophic Platonism" is growing on me for an official, unofficial O.S. self designation.
I'm with Onyx that it shouldn't necessitate beliefs or practices. I'm not too familar with Platoism but from what I understand, the order of the abstract realm is on "the other side" so to speak, in terms of what came first, in my view.

For me I've never really found an organization that really attempts to do what I do. Most historical lineages that do what I'm after, are long dead by centuries although a few ones claiming a link to a few holdouts exist but even they are narrow in scope, not seeing the bigger picture IMO.

What I mean is, at least as far as what I want to share at the moment is concerned, a group or order or organization that is grounded in understanding mysticism, the Left Hand Path and spirituality in a historically and objectively rooted process of continual learning. Simply put, too many LHP groups just make up stuff and run with it, and if they know anything about the roots or history, have only a superficial grasp on it. It isn't enough to just create as you go. No science, no study, no discipline, no art form and no religion comes out of nowhere. Everything is built on the shoulders of others and there is a culmination of practices, traditions, history, mythology and methodology that is slowly wasting away because too many new-age types want to promote their own biased views at the cost of eroding the authenticity. There is enough revisionist history and theology as it is, I've yet to find a group that can approach these topics neutrally and respect the various developments through the ages as the discrete albiet related viewpoints and religions as they are and derive from them a commonality that defines the realm of the left hand path.

This necessarily means that, in my opinion, to truly be Left Hand Path means understanding the history, the implications and the mythology behind it authentically. So one needs to know about the history of and systems of the roots... really the current-day LHP thoughts in English areas, from what I understand, mostly actually draw from Thelma, Hermeticism, Satanism and western occult tradition more than say Tantra although you can still see some of that occasionally. Categorically I'd call anything working against the foundations of tantra to not really be left hand path, but for some the name is little more than a buzzword, one lost on the general population who doesn't understand that they are claiming to be part of a modern occult movement that is trying to be counter to mainstream religions.

To me it seems like there could be a better word for that, since many self called LHP groups don't know anything about eastern religions, to the point that LaVey or Gilmore, I forget who, said that they are Satanists because they are in a Christian dominated society, but said they would follow Shiva if they were in India, as if Shiva is somehow a devil or opposing figure. Although there are highly individualistic, "the heart is the way"  LHP sects within Tantra, it wouldn't fit well with something like LaVeyan Satanism. The point isn't that they have to be similar but just that the CoS, like many others, are so divorced from an intellectual or even basic understanding of history of the Left Hand Path that they just make really flawed claims. Strangely enough though most ritualized forms of Satanism actually will resemble Tantra, particularly the Shakta forms, as they both seek out powers and to influence the world through ritual and magical means. Actually in those dualistic Shakta schools as I understand it, one seeks to become an equal to Mahakali or in other words univerally powerful as a distinct "God" more or less, from what I understand.

But becoming equal to some ideal is a feature in many forms of eastern religions. Historifcally speaking western occultism just sought power, not deification, and western mysticism and esotericism sought more of understanding or union with a divinity as opposed to becoming it's equal. To my knowledge, until very recently with the advent of Satanism, has any religion in the west actually sought to do what has been attempted by people in the east for thousands of years; to become god.

June 15, 2017, 09:08:54 pm
Re: Very early idea: a better way to define the E/W R/LHP.
This is something I'm toying with, nothing solid. I'm personally fine with the current system of Eastern Right and Left Hand Path, and Western Right and Left hand Path. Others seem very confused on the topic however. Considering that there are two rights and two lefts, the confusion is understandable.

While logically valid, perhaps there is a better way to discuss these things.

East Path (ERHP): Follow a set blueprint in order to dissolve the Self into the All.

West Path (WRHP): Follow a set blueprint in order to enter the afterlife of specific a deity/deities, and remain submissive to them.

South Path (ELHP): Violate set blueprint to dissolve Self into the All.

North Path (WLHP): use or violate blueprint, create new blueprint, separate the Self from deities/the All.

As far as I am aware, only one school of Hinduism believes that you "dissolve into the all", and I'm not sure on the nuance of Buddhism's view but from what I do know there does seem to be some sort of perpetuating consciousness in many forms, as evidenced by the plethora of demi-gods and bodhisattvas who were once human in the Tibet/Nepal/Kashmir regions. I don't know anything about the Jains or any other groups so I can't speak on their behalf.

I think that these definitions don't really help you or us. Sure, it seems like it's nice to have but it over complicates things. The Left Hand Path is the Left Hand Path. Trika and Spanda in particular have many Left Hand Path cousins, who like them, see the self as upon reaching divinity having agency and retraining individualization. Then of course we have the ancient Kapalikas and a plethora of Shakta schools that do the same (as far as I am aware Shakta is almost always dualistic).

If we wanted to count self and doership as necessary, then there would be two Hindu schools that you dissolve into the 'all'. If we want to count out those dualistic schools where you don't become totally equal to the god, then we can knock out things like Viashnavas. I guess if you consider this life, the ego-self to be the true self, you count out most Dharmic religions but that still isn't all but I would find that weird since even Crowley basically said the same thing about True Will as being qualified as True.

The tendency to treat eastern religions specifically Dharmic ones as monolithic is a hold-over from Colonialism and Imperialism. You can't really write off them all that way, it just isn't true. They are several distinct religions and traditions. For example the Kashmiri originating things I referenced developed with influence from China, Tibet and the Mongols and, and mostly did so independently of the southern traditions such as Vaishnavaism, and Shakta has huge roots in Indonesia even though it's origins are in India.

With that said, there are some distinct differences between the Left Hand Path as it's practiced in the 'west' and as it's practiced in the 'east'. Some of those differences are superficial IMO but then others are not. I'd go on, but something else just now got my attention I got to get to and cut this short.

June 20, 2017, 11:22:06 am
Re: Mathematics and Physical Monism I'm not sure why you just don't refer to it as materialism. Also I kinda feel that a lot of the arguement was just changing around meanings as opposed to intent.

Also to get this contradiction the person has to believe that mathematics are their own abstract thing, which many materialists don't. Instead many view it as just like language, something invented to describe things.

I hold the view that math is a language but that what is abstract is the logical rules it follows, not math itself. It's one of the arguments I use against materialism since they are without form, locality, or mass and yet they seem to be omni-present (same as the laws of nature). There does seem to be some interaction between natural laws and physical nature, in terms of values, but I'm not sure that proves that they are physical, just that they have a close relation with the physical and so more interdependent rather than transcendent.

June 22, 2017, 03:52:48 pm