Forum => General LHP Discussion => Satanism => Topic started by: Kapalika on October 09, 2018, 10:07:46 pm

Title: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Kapalika on October 09, 2018, 10:07:46 pm
Sometimes, when I play something like Dungeons and Dragons or I see a movie where something is ostensibly supposed to be the "satanic" religion of the setting, I wonder how it would play out if that religion actually was so.


So I ask, is there actually any fictional religion in any kind of game, movie or book that actually does represent something we could see as an actual form of Satanism as it is in the real world?
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Little Beast on October 15, 2018, 09:58:36 am
While not a fictional religion the Yogsothothery of HP Lovecraft - or the Cthulhu Mythos - is an obvious example. It's used within LaVeyan Satanism quite famously (eg; The Satanic Rituals) and is still a mainstay of Chaos Magic as well. I don't find any fault in this at all.

Lovecraft was an atheist, and even during his life had to convince others he was writing fiction. His use of existential dread and the gibbering madness of his cosmic pantheon of ancient uncaring gods - added to his own misanthropic tendencies - creates an occult atmosphere far more etheric than the density found within most online Satanic forums. Most of his protagonists are outright doomed due to entertaining any kind of intellect at all - nearly all of them more "educated and superior" than their lackies and contemporaries (who are usually inbred) - and then driven to madness or worse. Worse often being they're horrifically inbred as well.

Fhtagn!

Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Xepera maSet on October 15, 2018, 02:50:43 pm
There are a lot of LHP aspects of the Dark Souls series, especially Dark Souls 2 like the plot surrounding Lord Aldia.

The Sith and Greys in Star Wars.

The free people of middle Earth in Lord of the Rings.

Some of the Daedra in Skyrim and Oblivion.

Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Little Beast on October 16, 2018, 09:25:01 am
I could wax lyrical about the Sith and Lucas' work quite substantially.

I'd however include his Jedi into the vaguely LHP narrative as well, moreso because of his friend and mentor Joseph Campbell. As deeply flawed as they are in a cinematic sense, the prequel trilogy really does articulate well the corruption of the Jedi and their own self interest - in turn leading to the rise of the Empire via holding back their own Chosen One. I frequently find the symbolism of the mechanical right hand(s) of the Skywalkers overlooked in the myriad formats of SW fan analysis. This said, I'm really only interested in Star Wars from Lucas' own viewpoint, and regard as it the Tragedy of Darth Vader and that alone. The Sith vs Jedi shell is a cowboys and indians style narrative to sell the real Working...

...well that and the toys of course.

EDIT: For our more intuitive and musically inclined board members, this may more accurately portray the point I am attempting to make.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vPSdG1jU2g

Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Xepera maSet on October 16, 2018, 03:56:36 pm
Well Jedi like Qui Gon and Luke embody a fictional Prince of Darkness better than any of the Sith imo.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Little Beast on October 18, 2018, 09:02:17 am
    Obi-Wan: "Do not defy the Council, Master, not again."
    Qui-Gon: "I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan."
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Kapalika on October 19, 2018, 07:28:58 pm
The Sith are slaves to their emotions, and generally poorly written. That said, on paper some of their stuff is very LHP but the problem again is bad writing and depending on what decades and writer, portrayed wildly different with different levels of "evil stupid" and "chaotic stupid".


This might be controversial but Ren's depiction in The Last Jedi edged the most towards LHP of any of the movies at least and saw the Sith and Jedi as having the same kind of problems (both slavery of different kinds). All the other characters in all the movies fell within standard literature tropes. A redemption does not make one LHP imo. We see elements of the blurring of the lines in the whole movie but of course Disney wanted them to bring it back to status quo in the end, which really kind of ruined what might be a mature deconstruction of the Force. They should of saved the reconstruction for the last movie where it could actually be fleshed out.


So Kylo Ren might be kind of LHP but a Satanist I wouldn't call him.


I know some people think of r Vadar as LHP but I've always failed to see how, since what was pointed out is usually just normal character development. I don't think someone redeeming themselves from a fate that they saw no way out of before, really makes anyone LHP. I also have a poor respect for Vadar as a figure of sympathy considering all those kids he killed. Not very Satanic.


I'll have to think about some of the other stuff mentioned before I offer thoughts on them as well.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Xepera maSet on October 19, 2018, 08:58:00 pm
I honestly think Qui Gon and Luke are the most LHP, especially with The Last Jedi.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Kapalika on October 20, 2018, 05:27:36 pm
I honestly think Qui Gon and Luke are the most LHP, especially with The Last Jedi.


I'm not sure about Luke, there's subtext to him coming around to realizing the Jedi need to change but again it's mixed. Example is Yoda puts that tree on fire with the books inside but then we later get a glimpse of the books on the Falcon.


I'd have to watch the movie again to be sure, but Luke seemed more like a reformer to me, in both the new movies and original. In that way I kind of see him as a Martin Luther that almost killed a priest for fear that selling indulgences would return lol
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: W_Adam_Smythe on October 24, 2018, 02:18:22 am
This is an excellent question IMO.

Perhaps it is also something that I will include in a subsequent article for The Imperishable Star as a part of my ongoing series.

To answer your question, I will begin by asking another: What is a fictional religion?

All religions have their own mythology that they draw from. Satanism is no exception to this rule. For Satanism as it has been known since 1966, I will get more specific to your point.

Depending upon who you talk to as well as clips that can be found on Satanis, the Church of Satan was started as a publicity vehicle designed to make money for Anton LaVey that was in part conceived by a Hollywood publicity man named Edward Webber. This was of course banking off of the already happening occult scene in San Francisco at the time. Furthermore, it rode the very fictional coattails of Rosemary's Baby by Ira Levin later turned into a film by Roman Polanski, in which fictional claims such as Anton LaVey making a cameo of the Devil were made.

With that as with anything else, the question centers around reality. What reality is and what it isn't.

If something is unreal, no one would ever know of it as unreal does not exist.

Any thought, idea, dream, etc are in fact very real. For anyone who says, "Ah, but a dream is only a dream.", My question would be, "Do you then deny that you really had the dream?"

All of this will get into a topic that I eventually will cover in the Vampyre Child Boards, which centers around reality. The point here that I will get to, is that it is vitally important to remember that all experience is real. Having said that, you are not the experience.

Enter now into Thoughtform.

Ideas and thoughts are started within the SU and then sent out into the OU which will then have the capability of reaching other SU's and having a changing effect.

That is LBM...and without saying, when effective these thoughts or ideas take on a life of their own.

In order to have a continued existence though these TF's must be fed. From the stand point of religion, belief is the blood that feeds. Once such a TF has been fed sufficiently, it becomes a vital existence, after years, decades, or centuries, they have been fed enough to be realities. This is also similar to Carl Jung's Collective Conscious.

Finally, any fiction has the capability of becoming an existing and consistent reality.

When you study the Magic of cinema and how it molds and creates the rest of the world at large, you have a real case of the Dragon chasing it's tail. Where does one start and the other begin and who initiated the process...or when it gets to a certain point does it even matter?

At one point there indeed was a fictional religion that represented Satanism. Enough people fed it, that it has existed for over fifty years and is a reality. Has there been others that resemble it?

Absolutely.

I hope that this helps. 
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Little Beast on October 25, 2018, 12:33:22 pm
This is an excellent question IMO.

Perhaps it is also something that I will include in a subsequent article for The Imperishable Star as a part of my ongoing series.

To answer your question, I will begin by asking another: What is a fictional religion?

IMO the Bene Gesserit are very real. I say that because it's a good thing.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Liu on October 27, 2018, 08:20:03 pm
Fictional religions that resemble real life Satanists like us are very rare, can't really think of any example, at least none that are not actually supposed to depict actual Satanism (and also call it that).

Regarding fictional religions that are closer to the stereotype, what comes to my mind are the cultists in Warhammer 40K, which worship one or more of 4 deities that represent such "Satanic" things like
- forbidden knowledge that may lead to madness
- decay and the circle of nature
- violence and death
- kinky sex and sado-masochism

Those 4 deities are also fairly popular among actual LHPers, e.g, chaos magicians.

IMO the Bene Gesserit are very real. I say that because it's a good thing.
Who knows - wasn't familiar with Dune, but from reading the Wikipedia article about them, that kind of training and especially the kind of abilities the Bene Gessererit have would certainly appeal to a lot of us.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Etu Malku on October 28, 2018, 12:29:24 am

- forbidden knowledge that may lead to madness
- decay and the circle of nature
- violence and death
- kinky sex and sado-masochism
How does any of this pertain to satanism?
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Kapalika on October 28, 2018, 01:16:39 am
Fictional religions that resemble real life Satanists like us are very rare, can't really think of any example, at least none that are not actually supposed to depict actual Satanism (and also call it that).

Regarding fictional religions that are closer to the stereotype, what comes to my mind are the cultists in Warhammer 40K, which worship one or more of 4 deities that represent such "Satanic" things like
- forbidden knowledge that may lead to madness
- decay and the circle of nature
- violence and death
- kinky sex and sado-masochism

Those 4 deities are also fairly popular among actual LHPers, e.g, chaos magicians.

ha! I remember getting a little involved in a 40k tabletop, and I was drawn to Slaanesh for some of those reasons. I just couldn't get behind the grim dark aspects of like magic being inherently corrupting you or the 'evil' deities just being malicious for no reason (IIRC).

I could get behind all three of those but the violence and death, I think. There is imo hidden knowledge that causes people to go crazy, I mean look at some unprepared for the LHP. Why are there so many nutty Satanists? Even in Hindu LHP we have practitioners who went off the deep end because they didn't have any guidance.

And death, decay and the circle of life is part of nature. Nothing to really argue against there. And who doesn't love kinky sex and some BDSM?

The only one I don't like is again the malice, just violence for violence's sake or out of pure (non consensual) sadism. Like, why? It's senseless.

How des any of this pertain to satanism?

Well, he said:

Regarding fictional religions that are closer to the stereotype

Actually reading might help  ;)
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Etu Malku on October 28, 2018, 01:54:36 am
Fictional religions that resemble real life Satanists like us are very rare, can't really think of any example, at least none that are not actually supposed to depict actual Satanism (and also call it that).

Regarding fictional religions that are closer to the stereotype, what comes to my mind are the cultists in Warhammer 40K, which worship one or more of 4 deities that represent such "Satanic" things like
- forbidden knowledge that may lead to madness
- decay and the circle of nature
- violence and death
- kinky sex and sado-masochism

Those 4 deities are also fairly popular among actual LHPers, e.g, chaos magicians.

There is imo hidden knowledge that causes people to go crazy, I mean look at some unprepared for the LHP. Why are there so many nutty Satanists? Even in Hindu LHP we have practitioners who went off the deep end because they didn't have any guidance.
The threat of madness regarding magick and such has nothing to do with some 'hidden knowledge', the possible threat comes from the constant shifting between objective and subjective reality.

Quote
And death, decay and the circle of life is part of nature. Nothing to really argue against there.
So, then what is the association with Satanists that is different than anyone else? That's like saying, 'we all like a good dump, so everyone taking a dump must be a Satanist.
Quote
And who doesn't love kinky sex and some BDSM?
aside from 'I don't', again what has this to do with satanism?

It seems that 'your' version of Satanism is garbled in pageantry and naughty drama for naughty drama's sake. I thought most Satanists grow out of this petulant infantile grandiosity?
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Little Beast on October 28, 2018, 02:09:39 am
Who knows - wasn't familiar with Dune, but from reading the Wikipedia article about them, that kind of training and especially the kind of abilities the Bene Gessererit have would certainly appeal to a lot of us.

I was just referring to "reverend mothers" who are selective about who they breed with. I kind of have a problem with people breeding just because our genetics are programmed for reproduction.

My own mother likes to make a point out of the virgin Mary, although she's not a Christian. Virgin doesn't have to have its usual sexual meaning, and can simply mean pure. She likes to work Extra Virgin Olive Oil into this little analogy. "Props to mum" indeed.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Xepera maSet on October 28, 2018, 02:32:22 pm
Quote
petulant infantile grandiosity

This stuff is picking up and we have to stop.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Kapalika on October 28, 2018, 04:29:49 pm
BDSM is pretty popular, and I'm into it. Satanists in general are more likely to explore novel sexual practices than suppress their curiosity. Safe, sane and consensual as the saying in BDSM goes.


So a fictional religion that has those themes, that is also 'dark' and other wise has some satanic like flavor, I'm going to appreciate.


I know a lot of fictional hedonism religions have these themes, someone already mentioned some of the daedra in the Elder Srolls series, I can't remember all their names but thinking about it taking parts of various ones you could probably remake Satanism. But unfortunately their depiciton in recent games have been dumbed down to just be 'evil' in a lot of cases
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Etu Malku on October 28, 2018, 04:47:11 pm
BDSM is pretty popular, and I'm into it. Satanists in general are more likely to explore novel sexual practices than suppress their curiosity. Safe, sane and consensual as the saying in BDSM goes.


So a fictional religion that has those themes, that is also 'dark' and other wise has some satanic like flavor, I'm going to appreciate.


I know a lot of fictional hedonism religions have these themes, someone already mentioned some of the daedra in the Elder Srolls series, I can't remember all their names but thinking about it taking parts of various ones you could probably remake Satanism. But unfortunately their depiciton in recent games have been dumbed down to just be 'evil' in a lot of cases
Do you think the writers of these games, similar to some writers in film, are becoming hip to LHP philosophies and that is why there is more and more LHP philosophy intertwined in the game plots?
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Mindmaster on October 28, 2018, 09:44:54 pm
Quote
petulant infantile grandiosity

This stuff is picking up and we have to stop.

Argue the subject, but don't make the speakers the subject. It's just trolling anyway. :D
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Xepera maSet on October 28, 2018, 11:05:44 pm
I myself often use the Daedric planes of Oblivion from The Elder Scrolls to explain the Setian afterlife. Dark Souls 2: Scholar of the First Sin is one of the most meditative LHP stories of I have ever seen, from mythology and story to gameplay and progression. Pi Rameses himself wrote an article for The Imperishable Star volume III on the video game Nocturne and it's LHP implications.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Onyx on October 28, 2018, 11:38:09 pm
This is a little off-topic because it doesn't concern a fictional religion per se. I don't do games much anymore, but was into Quake for a very long time (particularly Quake III Arena, its free variant OpenArena, and Quake Live).

I mention this game because it is pure LBM. I played two modes: deathmatch and capture-the-flag. It was challenging in terms of thinking ahead, knowing your opponents, fast reflexes, etc.

Many of the capture-the-flag games were scheduled between "clans". You had to know both your own team and the others, lots of planning went on behind the scenes or during in-game chat to adjust the strategy.

But it all boiled down to the arts of deceit and skill like any other "sport". Despite the seemingly simple nature of the game, it was actually pretty complex and interesting to say the least.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Little Beast on October 29, 2018, 03:23:10 am
Do you think the writers of these games, similar to some writers in film, are becoming hip to LHP philosophies and that is why there is more and more LHP philosophy intertwined in the game plots?

I'd say myth is deeply embedded in storytelling, and that gaming is a form of storytelling with the added illusion of the player being in the narrative. Many popular games are fantasy and science fiction based, and the most popular stories of those genres are easily the works of JJR Tolkien and George Lucas. Both of these creators were consciously creating mythologies, and both borrowed heavily from pre-existing myth cycles. As another example; Batman is immensely popular, but a huge swathe of the characters fan base wouldn't recognise that Arkham Asylum and indeed the Joker himself are Lovecraftian in theme.

The ability to read, write and sing songs were once the most outlandish and arcane of all the arts of humanity. Some notable board games were used as ways to teach martial (military) arts. I'd even dare say that without the LHP entertainment would only exist as instructional booklets on how to pay your taxes and films about marching rank and file.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Xepera maSet on November 02, 2018, 12:29:17 am
A lot of Lovecraft is extremely Esoteric.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Little Beast on November 12, 2018, 03:19:44 pm
OCTOBER 16, 1985

42nd Street: Womens breasts draped across every billboard, every display, littering the sidewalk. Was offered Swedish love and French love...but not American love. American love; like Coke in green glass bottles...they don't make it anymore. Thought about Moloch's story on way to cemetery. Could all be lies. Could all be part of a revenge scheme, planned during his decade behind bars. But if true, then what? Puzzling reference to an island. Also to Dr. Manhattan. Might he be at risk in some way? So many questions. Never mind. Answers soon. Nothing is insoluble. Nothing is hopeless. Not while there's life. In the cemetery, all the white crosses stood in rows, neat chalk marks on a giant scoreboard. Paid last respects quietly, without fuss. Edward Morgan Blake. Born in 1924. Forty-five years a comedian. Died 1985, buried in the rain. Is that what happens to us? A life of conflict with no time for friends...so that when it's done, only our enemies leave roses. Violent lives, ending violently. Dollar Bill , The Silhouette, Captain Metropolis...we never die in bed. Not allowed. Something in our personalities, perhaps? Some animal urge to fight and struggle, making us what we are? Unimportant. We do what we have to do. Blake understood. Treated it like a joke, but he understood. He saw the cracks in society, saw the little men in masks trying to hold it together...he saw the true face of the twentieth century and chose to become a reflection of it, a parody of it. No one else saw the joke. That's why he was lonely. Heard joke once: Man goes into doctor. Says he's depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says he feels all alone in a threatening world where what lies ahead is vague and uncertain. Doctor says "Treatment is simple. Great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight. Go and see him. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. Says "But, Doctor...I am Pagliacci." Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.

  - Rorschach's journal
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Myhla on June 28, 2019, 08:48:47 pm
Very nice topic, imo. Myself, I have toyed with the prospect of fictio-magickal LHP systems. While I think the Lovecraftian model is very cool (and one I have personal connection with), I do think it's been over-done a bit.

I've often thought of what a Tolkeinnian LHP system might look like, envisioning something like the Temple of Sauron, or Melkorite/Morgothian Black Magick, but I'm not sure I have the sustained belief in it to make it very actual. I do still toy with the idea though, thinking about how it might work according to a Chaos Magick paradigm.

I was also surprised (and thought it a wonderful synchronicity) that Aquino included a section on Melkor in his Satanic Bible.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Liu on June 29, 2019, 02:07:14 pm
I've often thought of what a Tolkeinnian LHP system might look like, envisioning something like the Temple of Sauron, or Melkorite/Morgothian Black Magick, but I'm not sure I have the sustained belief in it to make it very actual. I do still toy with the idea though, thinking about how it might work according to a Chaos Magick paradigm.
I had completely forgotten about that but I used to have a crush on and feel worshippy towards Sauron for a short while in my teens.
I think it ended when I read Feanor's Curse (or however that's called in English) - because if any then Morgoth would have been the proper choice as you mention but I couldn't really relate to him.

One of the problems I have with the chaos magick approach - or at least with how it's often presented - is that it assumes the psyche to be a blank slate that can adopt any belief system.

When devising a belief system I would base it on what fits me - i.e. what I connect with, and what goals I have. A belief system is unlikely to work that well for most other people as for its creator.

Well not interested in spiritually exploring Tolkien's myths for the time being.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Myhla on June 29, 2019, 05:49:20 pm
I had completely forgotten about that but I used to have a crush on and feel worshippy towards Sauron for a short while in my teens.
I think it ended when I read Feanor's Curse (or however that's called in English) - because if any then Morgoth would have been the proper choice as you mention but I couldn't really relate to him.

One of the problems I have with the chaos magick approach - or at least with how it's often presented - is that it assumes the psyche to be a blank slate that can adopt any belief system.

When devising a belief system I would base it on what fits me - i.e. what I connect with, and what goals I have. A belief system is unlikely to work that well for most other people as for its creator.

Well not interested in spiritually exploring Tolkien's myths for the time being.

Totally get you there. Myself, while I do have an interest in spiritually exploring Tolkien's mythos, it's more of a cursory thing. I sometimes wish I were more serious about it than I am, but I am not. I really can't see myself putting all of my energy into that sort of thing (although, when I watch LoTR and have enough beer, listen to the right albums... the prospect is like: "For f**king Sauron!" lol).

I guess if I were to do something like that, it'd be more of a hobby/side-project... but that alone makes it less real, and less of a priority for me.

I hear what you're saying, too, about Chaos Magick in general. Now, I haven't delved in too deeply into this idea, aside from being involved with some groups, and reading Peter J. Carroll's Liber Null & Psychonaut. While I may not agree with all the ideas within Chaos Magick (specifically for the reasons you mentioned, as well as others), I would definitely reccommend that book to anyone. Myself, I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it, ended up reading it twice straightaway!

Having said that, I don't think I will go too far into the Chaos literature from here on out; but it has been something to learn from.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Liu on July 02, 2019, 10:49:35 pm
I think I might have read at least one of the books you mentioned a few years back (can't check at the moment since I'm traveling and don't have all my PDFs with me). Thanks for the recommendation in any case.
Title: Re: fictional religions that resemble Satanism?
Post by: Myhla on July 03, 2019, 03:48:01 pm
Thanks for the recommendation in any case.

Absolutely, my pleasure.  ;)