Forum => General LHP Discussion => Satanism => Topic started by: Setamorphosis on October 02, 2017, 01:51:22 pm

Title: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 02, 2017, 01:51:22 pm
The purpose behind this thread isn't to discuss MLO or anti-cosmic Satanism as it is, per se, but rather the anti-cosmic approach to the LHP as a possibility.

I was tentative about posting this thread, let alone put it in the right category. Given the nature of the approach, I would say that this can belong in either the Setianism or Satanism subforum.

Anyway, let's begin:

The most ultimate adversariality and isolation would no doubt be achieved by forsaking the cosmos altogether, and become something...other. A manifestation of primeval chaos, yet not merged with anything, perhaps? Something that is and isn't at the same time, something formless, independent, and alien...think of it as a Lovecraftian deity, as it were.

Through cultivating the Black Flame, one strives to transcend both the objective and the subjective universe (which is arguably very linked to the objective universe, although not as rigid in its mechanics). One becomes many, and none. It's the ultimate isolation, the ultimate rebellion against the mechanical, uncaring, mindless, and ruthless universe.

Many will say that the anti-cosmic philosophy is edgy, childish, or what have you. But I think there's something interesting in this approach. It's not that different from Buddhism, at its very rudimentary core. One could even argue that they're the same once you strip away the illusion of tradition, the imagery, etc.

Life indeed can be described by suffering - the one's own suffering throughout approximately a century, only to have all of his achievements (unless popular enough) turn to the dust. All in vain. There's also the suffering and death of another lifeform so that the other, seemingly greater lifeform can survive.

The universe itself, life in particular, may be beautiful to behold, but as I've said, it's rather uncaring, mechanical, and thrives on death and destruction, even on a small scale.

To transcend the objective universe, the casual, the cosmos, whatever you wish to term it, and be FINALLY free of its ruthlessness and imposing mechanics and rigid rules...there's nothing more Satanic than that.

And I don't use the word Satanic in LaVeyan terms either. Their very philosophy (submission to nature, discouraging to transcend it) is antithetical to the LHP.

So what do you think about this approach? I know it sounds rather negative, but I think this is an interesting topic to explore, and I can see how this can be integrated into Setianism, Satanism & the LHP in general, but can you?

I'm really curious what you folks think.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamontet on October 02, 2017, 02:06:17 pm
Setamorphosis, I think you have touched upon something of significance which will take some time for us to contemplate and collaborate upon.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 02, 2017, 02:13:34 pm
Then I will be eagerly awaiting your, and everybody else's responses. :)

Also, in the future, I will make a magical system which will incorporate elements of other traditions (without dogma) and philosophies, add some of my bits here and there, which I will post when it's in a suitable stage. The system itself, being accommodated to me, will evolve as I do, so I won't post a long, long essay on it, but I'll keep the text at a skeletal stage, as it were, so anyone can dive into it if they so choose, and add their own stuff to it. The hierarchy I posted will also be included, but it will be revamped.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Xepera maSet on October 02, 2017, 02:22:55 pm
This is very interesting, as I myself am not a big fan of the material universe. When I imagine my own individual Setian afterlife, there are a lot of material aspects to it. For example, I'd like to be up in my heaven and be able to eat as much good food as I want, play some video games, have sex with angles, fun stuff like that. Due to this I am not sure if I would really want to leave the material world behind, I'd simple want a type of control over it. Of course if such an afterlife in conscious/astral anyways, then perhaps this imagine stuff doesn't actually count as the material world. It's a question I now have to think on thanks to you!

In the Diabolicon, if I remember correct, Satan and his followers decide that they will keep certain things from the natural mechanistic universe, and use it as an inspiration for Self-Ordering.

"But those who were of the new mind now followed me, and I turned to outermost chaos, which none of
us had before presumed to dare. We were beset with doubt, for we feared that apart from God we would
all perish in chaotic oblivion. But as we were, we remained, and I called to my fellowship, See! We exist
and are essence in our own right. In truth we are beings independent of God, empowered to shape our
own destinies as we may elect. Between the two great poles of the Universe, order and chaos, we shall
stand to effect our several desires. Let us counsel how best to employ our art, for our experiment is a
perilous one, forgiving error neither of intent nor of accident.
Many works did we then pursue, and the cosmic mechanism was altered by evolution of the original and
unique, whose design was our decision. All that we wrought did not prove beneficent, for we did not
control the futures of our creations. We left untouched the great system of mathematical behavior that
gave to us a Universal reference and language, but it was our ambition that no two things should be of
single identity, and that no entity should lack conceptual essence independent of its substantial form."
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 02, 2017, 02:37:28 pm
I am no fan of the material universe either. Frankly, I love nature, but only to observe it. I don't want to be a part of it, because it thrives on destruction. I believe that there is a way to leave it, and become something like a Lovecraftian deity, or something like Set. It's really difficult to put it to words, but to become something which is and isn't at the same time, which cannot affect the physical and is not bound by the physical, but can interact with the astral, and the mental, like any other external entity (e.g. Set) would.

Now, I do like plenty of stuff in this world, but if I have to sacrifice all of it to become this godly type of entity, then so be it. After all, when we transcend our desires and wordly attachments, when we achieve the ultimate metamorphosis, we wouldn't even feel the need for the stuff we used to crave.

I myself have been working, and am still working to transcend my nature. I have, believe it or not, for the most part overcome my sexual desires - which is one of the core aspects of the human animal.

This project is very much possible; the rewards to be reaped are great, but they don't come without costs and tremendous effort.

Also, that bit from the Diabolicon, hmm...maybe there is a way to retain to mimic particular elements from the material if one so choose, eh?

PS. Such an afterlife as you describe wouldn't be material at all. It would mirror it in some regards, but it's ultimately immaterial. Although, and this is my opinion, because it mirrors the material, it's also a tad limiting. You don't have infinite potential and possibilities. But when you have something so alien and incomprehensible which can be something and nothing at the same time, then there are no limits to what can happen.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 03, 2017, 09:50:14 am
I'm probably the one who has read most on Anti-Cosmicism here due to having a background in Chaos Magick and delving into a lot of Thursatru and LHP Norse books lately. I still haven't checked out Pan Paradox but it's on my list.

It's really a satanic form of Gnosticism or view of Satanism, to me, honestly. It has it's merits. I do not know how I feel about the goals personally but I feel it is a valid approach for some who seek that. They feel that chaos is the true creator that the demiurge is keeping us from by lying to us.

One of the theories is that to become one with the chaos, you have to sacrifice yourself three times. The first time you do this. I can't recall the order of the first two but it's human and animal selves. This leads to deification and you will have to sacrifice your God self to achieve the goal of anti-cosmicism. It seems counter-intuitive but the previous self-sacrifices do gain in power.

I've seen another LHP oriented book(techinically a Middle Path with LHP leanings) state that those who pray to dark gods to get what they want are simply still in line with those who pray to the light gods for stuff they want. They haven't really evolved. They're still using the Gods as something to rely on instead of a force of self-deification or self reliance. Keeping this in mind, anticosmic forces might be something beneficial for a LHP for the solve part of solve et coagulate.

It's way too edgey to be RHP despite sharing some goals and I think there's some differences. I think Buddhists want to be one with the universe, and would see the abyss as a natural part of it, where as anti-cosmicists would see chaos as the only truth. It's focused on seperation from the demi-urge.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 03, 2017, 10:35:53 am
Intuitively, I knew that those 3 sacrifices are in order. I think it's:

Animal > Human > God-self > (return to chaos)

Makes the most sense, really. I'm already undergoing this process. I'm still indecisive about the God-self, though.

Now, the end goal is something I've been pondering. Suppose you return to the chaos, merge with it, it's a seeming RHP goal, BUT I might just be speaking in human words here. Maybe there is no merging after all. Since chaos is all possibilities and none at the same time, one could argue that you merge, but are your own independent entity at the same time.

Something akin to the 11 chaos gods of Anti-Cosmic Satanism. Although I do not agree with their ideas (nor do I really disagree. I'm ambivalent), the idea that a single god, let's say Satan, is a manifestation of chaos, a chaotic force in its own right, but it's also a part of something greater (chaos, again).

Maybe I'm misunderstanding their concept, but to me that's how it seems. If chaos is indeed everything and nothing and it contains all possibilities, then you get both outcomes:

You become independent (LHP goal) & You merge with something greater (RHP goal).

Best of both worlds, eh?

What are your thoughts on this, @King Mob (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=68)?
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 03, 2017, 11:52:26 am
That's a really interesting perspective and it reminds me of someone who gave me their view on Crowley being both middle path. While his aim was to cross the abyss and unite with the universe, there's still some self-deification his actions if not philosophy and this person speculated that he is probably around as some kind of God-form or something due to his occultism and delibarately building a myth around himself. He did everything he could to disolve into nothing including some questionable actions so maybe that could be an example of the everything and nothing of merging with chaos?

I want to say that it's animal>human>god>chaos  instinctively but I think that animal and human might be switched on the basis that human is a lot of desires we choose whereas animal is the incredibly ingrained instincts. I'm not sure, I'll pull up the book when I go to update my journal and let you know.

Back to the original point, both Judiaism and Heathenism as well as other religions believe in different aspects of the soul that go to different places. About 5 usually. I can't see why you couldn't have both a deified soul aspect and a merged soul aspect if those theories are indicative of any truths of the soul.

Chaos is usually defined as infinite possibilites including nothing so your interpretation is a fair one to make that I'm surprised I never put together with. I think the problem we get into here is that a lot of the edgier, more criminal off shoots of Anti-Cosmicism have equivalated to destructive forces thanks to their Lovecraft fetish. Lovecraftian stuff could be anti-cosmic but I find those aformentioned off-shoots have a poor philosophy when handling them. Even Thursatru falls into equating Thurses with destructive forces but I chose to view them as personifications of things in life rather than some eldritch abomination that literally wants to destroy the universe.

I think my view could reconcile your theory while the traditional views chaos gnosticism or anticosmic satanism and would make a lot of sense while prevent one from falling into the bad, extremist sects of this branch.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 03, 2017, 12:31:22 pm
The more I think about it, the harder it is to classify the chaos path. That's the beauty of it, in my opinion. It's neither the LHP, MHP, nor the RHP. It's all at the same, yet nothing at all. Infinite possibilities, and all that (soul becoming independent, AND merging at the same time).

Now, about the edginess. Perhaps anti-cosmic is too harsh, and misleading. I'm trying to create a path, and the name that popped to my head today was this:

Acosmic Demonolatry.

What do you think? Would this be more appropriate to name this path? I don't want to destroy the universe, but transcend it by embracing chaos. That said, order also must play a role because if we have infinite possibilities, ORDER is also a possibility.

The edgy people who commit crime, thinking it's Satanic or whatever are loony, to me. First off, you can get punished. Pursuing that what benefits you the most without a severe penalty (or no penalty at all) is far more logical than being a reckless fool getting into trouble and causing mayhem because you think it's cool and empowering.

Thus, I think anti-cosmic is misleading to what I have in mind. Thanks to you, I've considered it more now.

As for the path itself, I'm going to combine elements of many traditions, with my own spin on it due to my experience. It will include:

1. Demonolatry - choosing 1 particular demon or force to align yourself with, and work with it as partners/teacher-student dynamic/embracing the archetype if you're more secular.

2. Buddhism

3. Hinduism, possibly

4. Necromancy, in a more vague sense

5. Haitian Vodoun, possibly

7. Norse Magick, specifically rune magick - utilizing the Thurisaz rune, possibly embracing the acausal, chaotic power of the Jotun.

8. Setianism, Xeper and Remanifestation being important elements, as well as cultivating The Black Flame

9. Luciferianism - Cultivating The Black Flame, intellectual and spiritual progress in a broad sense

10. Satanism, in a broad sense

11. Chaos Magick, of course

12. Ancient Sumerian elements (linked to Demonolatry)

13. Ancient Egyptian elements


That's what's coming to my mind, I may revamp the list (making it longer or shorter, or roughly the same, but replace few things).

What are your thoughts on this so far? I'm glad I've bumped into someone who's well-read about the anti-cosmic, and chaotic currents.

Edits; typos
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Liu on October 03, 2017, 02:14:50 pm
Anti-cosmic Satanism is probably the first kind of Satanism I really learnt about in a more in-depth way.

I have my metaphysical problems with it - basically because I don't believe in body-mind duality, but in awareness-information duality. All these things that anti-cosmic Satanists tend to say would be the work of our origin in chaos seems to have utterly natural causes. But it's still a beautiful approach, so full of hope. I even enjoy using its religious hymns myself as, even though I believe that Satan very much is also a deity of the cosmos, the aspects of Satan which they praise are the same ones I would.

Also, much of it can be also taken metaphorically/psychologically.
One of the theories is that to become one with the chaos, you have to sacrifice yourself three times. The first time you do this. I can't recall the order of the first two but it's human and animal selves. This leads to deification and you will have to sacrifice your God self to achieve the goal of anti-cosmicism. It seems counter-intuitive but the previous self-sacrifices do gain in power.
That notion of self-sacrifice is not new to me, but do you remember where you found this three-part version of it? I don't think I encountered it before.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding their concept, but to me that's how it seems. If chaos is indeed everything and nothing and it contains all possibilities, then you get both outcomes:

You become independent (LHP goal) & You merge with something greater (RHP goal).

Best of both worlds, eh?
Not to bring up that discussion here, but basically one of the reasons why I don't use that criterion to distinguish between the paths.
Also the Indian LHP's goal could basically be summarized (in a very simplfying manner) as consisting of these two parts.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 03, 2017, 02:20:01 pm
"awareness-information duality. "

Mind expanding more on this? Do you believe that we are all expressions of an infinite awareness, each and every one of us. Our individual consciousness being a point of focus, and that our brains decode the information around us, thus perceiving the world around us? That the world doesn't really exist, but it's just a product of us decoding information?

If not, I'd like to know more on this approach.

If so, that view doesn't necessarily contradict the anti-cosmic approach. It can still be reconciled.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Liu on October 03, 2017, 02:38:45 pm
"awareness-information duality. "

Mind expanding more on this? Do you believe that we are all expressions of an infinite awareness, each and every one of us. Our individual consciousness being a point of focus, and that our brains decode the information around us, thus perceiving the world around us? That the world doesn't really exist, but it's just a product of us decoding information?

If not, I'd like to know more on this approach.

If so, that view doesn't necessarily contradict the anti-cosmic approach. It can still be reconciled.
Not like I'd describe it, but that goes at least in the right direction.

Basically I believe that there are only 2 things one can know: One's own awareness, and the stuff one is aware of.
And awareness in and of itself seems to be so utterly different (if just by being without any real attributes) from what it is aware of, that I don't think it could in any way be a result of that which it's aware of. In other words, I don't believe consciousness is caused by matter but instead is its own something. Since there seem to be many conscious beings I would assume that their consciousness has some common origin, and maybe is still interrelated on some level. It possibly also means that consciousness is a general property of everything in the world, not just of living organisms - but I'm unsure about that point.

However, the rest, i.e. stuff one can be aware of, would include both the mind and the outside world. Whether that means that it doesn't "really" exist, is a matter of definition. But one's thinking seems to be based on the same laws/mechanisms that also rule the physical world, just in a much more complex manner, and viewed from a different perspective.

Because of this belief of mine I have my issues with claims found in anti-cosmic texts like if someone has anti-social or perverted or in any other way anti-nomistic urges or simply a  tendency for critical thinking then that would be caused by our origin in chaos.
Sure we can attribute all this to Satan, and sure we can decide to make use of it and enjoy it instead of suppressing it. Doesn't make it unnatural, though.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 03, 2017, 02:48:40 pm
@Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) I read it in either Gap: A Left Hand Approach to Odinism or Myrkthursablot: The Nightside of Norse Mythology. Books sold by Fall of Man.

This model is inspired by the rune old english rune for Eihwaz which makes sense given the rune's associations.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Liu on October 03, 2017, 03:06:41 pm
@Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) I read it in either Gap: A Left Hand Approach to Odinism or Myrkthursablot: The Nightside of Norse Mythology. Books sold by Fall of Man.

This model is inspired by the rune old english rune for Eihwaz which makes sense given the rune's associations.
Ah, thanks - those two are new to me.

But I agree, that fits Eihwaz not too badly from what I recall. Especially considering its Skandinavian shape ᛦ (with completely different sound value but etymologically the same name).
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 03, 2017, 03:26:50 pm
@Setamorphosis (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=56) We'll have to keep each other updated on our practices, the approach you're forging seems to have a lot in common with what I want to do. I want to work with ascosmic forces while embracing the fact that order is a possibility and the the physical world and manifestations arent profane as it's a possibility of chaos. I didn't really have the exact wording or approach what I wanted, just an intuitive feeling of what felt right to me. Chaos is important and a cornerstone of my practice and I neither want to deny light or dark or work against either.


I think you'd benefit profoundly from looking into Daoism as the Dao is very similar to chaos.

As for the specificcs.

1. Demonolatry I like your approach. It's very Faustian but I would say to not limit yourself to demons. There are plenty of Acosmic forces you can work with, Thurs, Lovecraft Mythos, etc. You can also use chaos magic to identify and bind your own personal demons.

People write off Lovecraft but Peter J. Carrol's Esotericon has the best grimoire for Lovecraft I've ever seen that actually makes the reward of working with them tempting enough to take the risk and gives you enough protocols to do it as "safely" as possible. It's something I want to work my way up to eventually.

2. Buddhism- As I mentioned earlier, I'd suggest Daoism over Buddhism unless you are interested in the cosmology/mythology in which case study both. They're incredibly linked mythologically now.

3. Hinduism- I can't really give you any feedback here.

4. Necromancy- Necromancy is something I find interesting, in a vague sense.

5. Haitian Vodoun-The Voodoun Gnostic Workbook seems incredibly fascinating to me. There's a specific exercise in it that I bought the book for that involves use the web to astrally "time-travel" but I've yet to find the time or motivation to look over the system. It's a rather huge book.

7. Norse Magick- This is why my current paradigm is being focused on. I'm still very early on in my Rune studies but there are SO many benefits to just meditating on the Runes, let alone practice. If you really delve into the paradigm and do rune work and harvesting the traditional way, you'll gain an appreciate for nature and the physical world. Thursatru religion/books is probably of interest to you(but they're pricey) as they work with the Jotun and Thurs and have the concept of the Acosmic flame which appears to be similar to the concept black flame. There's also a gateway to some traditional folk magic through a couple of systems in the belief.

8. Setianism- I really like the Setian philosophy from what I've learned from this forum and it's newsletters. I plan on reading it more myself once I get a foundation and my current paradigm.

9. Luciferianism- I don't know enough to comment though the basic philosophy is something I agree with- Lucifer/Set/Loki as the light bringer archetype. A research into these archetypes might be beneficial in the demonalotry faustian sense as well.

10. Satanism- Seems natural.

11. Chaos Magick- If you go the chaos magic route, I highly suggest a focus on paradigm shifting. The ability to shift beliefs and personalities. It gives you a great personal understanding of what chaos means by the possibility of everything and nothing but embrancing it's full potentials in your own microcosm. It is a very stressful exercise as you will get lost in your beleifs until you tear it all down.

I'm in a rebuilding process myself which is necessary but as I said, messing around with your psychological microcosm to those extreme ammounts that frequently can have some adverse effects and isn't for everybody.

12. Ancient Sumerian elements- Seems pretty natural. I always thought working with Sumerian gods would be better than the goetic demons if you know which one corresponds to what.

13. Ancient Egyptian elements- I practed Kemeticism for quite a while and while I still believe in it, I'm letting it take a back seat temporarily but a ton of my patron/matron deities are from that belief system. It seems more beneficial to the order sign.

Also, I would recommend you look into The Typhonian Order. Crowley took a lot of influence from Buddhism and Daoism before creating Thelema and chaos magic was created by people who studied directly under Crowley and liked his general approach but disagreed with him on a lot so there's crossover there. You can gain a lot just from a study of Crowley and but I'm biased a loosely identify as a Thelemite.

However, The Typhonian Order fully embraced the Left Hand Path side of the Thelemic current and Lavenda, who lead the order, became famous for his experiments with Lovecraft mythos and either the creation or prominent use(can't remember which) of the Tunnels of Set. He also popularized the Aeon of Ma'at which is probably not of interest to anyone here but still an interesting paradigm. He also popularized the association of aliens with occultism.


I really look forward to how your path progresses because your statement of  "I don't want to destroy the universe, but transcend it by embracing chaos. That said, order also must play a role because if we have infinite possibilities, ORDER is also a possibility" is something that aligns with my current goals. I'm also really happy to meet someone who has an interest in anticosmic and chaos magic focused satanism that rejects the extremism often associated with it.

Best of luck to you, keep me updated.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 03, 2017, 03:31:36 pm
@Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61)  Yep, the book had a diagram of that Skandinavian shape laid over the human body and it piercing the groin, chest, and head to show the sacrifice and it stuck with me. I'll see if I can find it later for this thread.

They're pretty decent books. I find fallofman to have some good left hand path books especially for those of the pagan variety but they certainly don't live up the prestige of Ixaaxar.

I much preferred Myurkthursablot, it was short but much closer to my beliefs/analysis whereas GAP lost me in a few areas.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 03, 2017, 03:54:52 pm
The way I view demons and define demons differs from what people usually think of when they hear said word. To not get into the semantics and bore you with unnecessary details, I'll say that:

Due to their historical background in various myths and cultures, as well as what they represent and my experiences with these forces, I must say that demons are indeed ancient gods. Figures such as Amon from the Goetia make it fairly obvious. Or Astaroth.

When I see these figures, I do not accept the limiting view of the Christian demonology or any myth really. I think that these beings, or whatever you wish to term them, are quite complex in nature, and have many masks and faces, all representing the same principle(s) or force(s).

What I agree with in some of the texts I've been reading (of ONA and MLO, for example) is that names don't really mean much when we're talking about demons. Names such as Baal, Astaroth, Amon, etc are just esoteric names given by man (most likely) to describe particular things they've encountered.

One of my first posts here was about the god Kek, how 4chan used chaos magick to actually employ it, and some strange synchronicities that happened prior and after the birth of Pepe = Kek. One of the themes that reoccur is this light emerging from the darkness which is represented by Kek. Also by Baal. Also by Set. Also by Lucifer. Coincidentally, these figures were mixed together quite a few times by 4chan, and some magicians I know, myself included, experienced (without knowing much of 4chan) that these figures represent roughly the same thing.

In other words, a demon is way more powerful and encompasses more things than what the demonologists, Christians or otherwise, have written in their books.

To connect this to the Sumerian gods -- by working with, say, Astaroth, or Baal, you're also tapping into the same current, same force, as you would when working Ishtar, or Marduk, you just have to make the right connections. After all, Astaroth is just Ishtar/Astarte/Innana,etc demonized, while the demon of goetia Bael is an amalgam of many Baals, including Marduk (whose title was Bel), and other pagan figures.

Now, with that said, I agree that one should not limit himself. In fact, I think one has the freedom to work with as many forces as he wants, but should choose one as a primary one. A patron/matron who will let you interact with other forces/figures, basically.

I will most definitely look into Daoism, and the Typhonian Order! Thursatru, too (I did a little bit of reading on this one, but I'll save it for later) Thank you for the recommendations!

As for Haitian Vodoun, I only have the book Spider & The Green Butterfly by E.A. Koetting. I'll have to do more research, but I think there's some good information there.

In regards to Norse Magick, yes meditating on runes is awesome! I love meditating on the Dagaz, Othala and the Fehu runes.

Ah, I'm so excited now. But I must rest. I'll definitely keep you posted; I still have quite a lot of research to do. The next thing on the list is definitely Daoism. After that, I'll look into Haitian Vodoun even more. The ritualism which don't include the Loa, mainly.

As far as necromancy goes, though, I'm still not quite sure how far I'd go down that route. Inner alchemy by embracing death (in a metamorphic sense) could be quite potent, as well as dabbling into some cosmic/acosmic vampirism, eh?

Thank you, and keep me updated as well!

PS. I myself practice what the ONA would call "insight roles" - well, something akin to that. Taking on a role that's opposite of how I usually am. I also have various practices with include improving physical strength and endurance - some of which can be quite unpleasant but necessary (for me, at least). I believe that this project, this transformation, is not acquired through meditation only, but through accumulating power in the cosmic, the casual, and then use that power to amplify your magick. This is what I've been doing for a while.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Xepera maSet on October 04, 2017, 03:09:52 pm
I suppose I'm curious how anti-cosmic esotericism can necessarily be LHP. I understand from the perspective that it's against the natural order, but chaos also doesn't allow for individual self identity. It seems like a dark type of monist dissolution into an "all", except the all is chaos. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 04, 2017, 04:44:00 pm
You're partially correct. There is going against the natural order and dissolution involved, BUT:

Since chaos is all possibilities manifesting all at once you get BOTH outcomes at the same time:

You become an independent entity AND merged with the chaos, thus you achieve an equilibrium in a way. Ironically, embracing the chaos is the road to ultimate equilibrium, in my opinion, because you have infinite possibilities and infinite outcomes - all happening at the same time.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 04, 2017, 08:01:53 pm
@Xepera maSet (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3)  It's definitely a greyish area. The one reasoning is the one that Setamorphasis gave. He interpretation sounds pretty accuracte according to my view of Chaos. I feel that even if you don't disolve yourself into chaos you can resemble chaos in that you always have the possibility of no ego or creating the ego that you want; ie paradigm shifting or insight roles. I suppose this would be middle path and has it's own criticisms but I see it more as a tool strengthening the self. I guess it all depends on how one defines "self" and "strength." A right hand path follower would seek to stay constantly disolved.

Another is that but I think Anti-Cosmicists would define the Left Hand Path as rejecting God. The traditional God that one would disolve into in the RHP would be the demi-urge. A lot of Christians I know define hell as an absence of God.

Even if they're disolving into someting, they're still rejecting God and following the light of the Luciferian archetype.

It seems to me that Left Hand Path becomes incredibly hard to define, the more you study the off-shoots. This is one example. Another one I found in The Middle Path is basically that as long as you are praying to light or dark Gods to get what you want which makes you weak, you are practicing Right Hand Path and true LHP would be defined as praying to them for adversity that gives you your own strength.

I personally reject viewing dissolution as a RHP thing only as it's a weakness I feel should be purged from my own experience. I like that 3 mode model I shared earlier. I may not ever sacrifice the God portion when I get there but it is incredibly important to disolve your "false self" that prevents you from furthering your will on either path.

I guess my personal two cents is that to be consumed by the black flame/acosmic flame that Set/Loki gifted us is to be consumed by chaos and realize our complete freedom of "existence precedes essence" which means are are not defined by anything and are free to be who we want and define ourselves as we will at any time. As Setamorphasis said, infinite possibilites including the possiblity to not exist, to exist, or both at the same time.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 07, 2017, 06:47:48 am
@King Mob (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=68) , I have an update for you:

The Draconian Path is very much connected with our path, so I recommend checking that out. The books "Apophis" & "Aegishjalmur The Book of Dragon Runes" seem worth looking into, especially if you're interested in Norse Magic, which I know you are.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 07, 2017, 08:00:38 am
Update #2:

The Path of Chaos encompasses not only ritualism, specific spiritual goals and beliefs, but also a way of life. To truly embrace chaos, one should learn how to be spontaneous, how to adapt quickly to different situations, to realize there is no personality, and no true-self.

What we call "I" is not an illusion, as right hand path people would like to have us believe. The "I" is the conscious agent experiencing the world. To call this an illusion would be foolish and laughable.

What IS an illusion is what we call "true-self" or "the real me" or "personality." Our personalities are simply information which we carry around and project in particular situations. What's more is that we don't project all of it, but a small aspect. When another person meets you, they DON'T really meet, YOU, the conscious agent. Instead, they meet a small aspect of who you are, an image, some information you decided or was forced to project in that particular situation.

As someone who is on The Path of Chaos, I acknowledge that there is no true-self or personality, but rather that I am a consciousness having an experience - which is all information based. As such, I as a person am malleable. I can be who I want to be whenever I want. This allows me to perform insight roles rather easily.

To live the life of chaos is not to be a vandal or some edgelord butthurt emo kid who wants to kill and destroy everything. Rather, it is to acknowledge all possibilities, all outcomes (the cost and benefits being crucial), be spontaneous, to understand that you, and this reality, are more malleable than we're told to believe.

I will post more on the ritualism and magic soon, but I just wanted to cover the chaos-lifestyle behind my path. There's more to it, but what I posted is a skeleton - my chaos-lifestyle in its rudimentary form.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 07, 2017, 12:58:21 pm
I been recommended Apophis before so it seems like I will definitely have to look into that book.

I am skimming through it now and saw the following:

"The first thing that the Initiate learns, however, is that
he knows next to nothing of himself. The personality is a
hotch-potch of parental and societal conditioning, shaped and
reshaped by the media, advertising and selective education.
The first tasks for the student are to strip away the accretions
to finally reveal his own unsullied central core. This process
of self-revelation is the first opening of the Eye of Leviathan,
learning to see things - and particularly oneself - as they really are. Even this first realisation is difficult and time- consuming, much harder work than the majority of modern
people - and certainly the majority of occultists - are
prepared to commit themselves to. Add to this the fact that it
is always a frightening and disorienting experience that will
change the Initiate in irreversible ways and you don't really
need to wonder too hard why the Left-Hand Path is shunned
and feared. "


I agree with this sentiment and feel this demonstrates the power of chaos and the abyss and their role in the Left Hand Path. The following as well:

"In all cases, however, it will be found that three major
archetypes or Forms predominate within the Draconian
initiatory process and none of these may be safely excluded
from the Work. Indeed, there will be no Work at all unless
the Initiate can forge a vital personal link with each of these
divine beings, learning to recognise their promptings without
self-delusion, and to act decisively upon the guidance
received.

The first of these Forms is the Lord of Darkness, the
God of Consciousness. The second Form is the Scarlet
Woman, the Goddess of Desire. The third Form is the
Serpent, the Force for Remanifestation. Each of these is
discussed in some detail below. Through the Initiate's
interactions with these Deities, a new personal God will
ultimately arise if all is well done. This is the personal
Daemon - also called the Holy Guardian Angel by other
nomenclature - which will be discussed later in this book in
its proper place. "


This has become my philosophy when starting a LHP. However, I would add in a Luciferian archetype into this as well. If there is a God of Conciousness, there should also be a God of Gnosis. For me, Loki fits this role as God of the acosmic flame.

A lot of stuff in this stuff seems in line with my intuitive philosophy on Left Hand Path so I'll definitely download the book and read it in full sometimes.

Thanks for the recommendation, I can definitely see how it relates to our paths.

As for your other comment, I completely agre with this:

"As someone who is on The Path of Chaos, I acknowledge that there is no true-self or personality, but rather that I am a consciousness having an experience - which is all information based. As such, I as a person am malleable. I can be who I want to be whenever I want. This allows me to perform insight roles rather easily."

In my experience though, your created selves can gain a strong hold and convince you that they are your "true selves" if not kept in check. It's a danger of insight roles but insight roles are also a great way their own form of magic. I've heard them called para-personas or fiction suits as well which I prefer because I feel insight role implies it it to be used only for insight where as one can create a whole persona as a magical act to accomplish a goal.

This is why I said it depends on you define your "self" or "ego" earlier. I agree with you in that their is no true self except for the conciosness. The conciousness is the ego that the LHP seeks to develop in my opinion. The only to to realize the true strength of your conciousness is to realize the abyss. To become one with chaos, is to realize the symbiotic relationship between conciousness and the void. It the alchemical mix of the two that produces the gnosis neseccary to charge magic, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Liu on October 07, 2017, 01:06:19 pm
The Draconian Path is very much connected with our path, so I recommend checking that out. The books "Apophis" & "Aegishjalmur The Book of Dragon Runes" seem worth looking into, especially if you're interested in Norse Magic, which I know you are.
Seconding this, I read Apophis and the beginning of Aegishjalmur a couple years ago, and they have some pretty sound practice recommendations. I was too much of a beginner at that time to get myself to actually do much of it at all, but I kinda want to start working through Aegishjalmur once I'm done reading a couple other books I have on my list.

Btw...
"awareness-information duality. "

Mind expanding more on this? Do you believe that we are all expressions of an infinite awareness, each and every one of us. Our individual consciousness being a point of focus, and that our brains decode the information around us, thus perceiving the world around us? That the world doesn't really exist, but it's just a product of us decoding information?

If not, I'd like to know more on this approach.

If so, that view doesn't necessarily contradict the anti-cosmic approach. It can still be reconciled.
Still not sure how to reconcile this, though.
Reading your last post I kinda think I know which solution you mean, but it's quite a bit different from what I normally associate with the anti-cosmic approach, so I'd like to ask you to explain that more specifically.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 10, 2017, 01:26:28 am
Sorry for the lack of responses, @Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) , I'm still developing and molding my "beliefs" on this matter. I want to respond when I have a solid grasp and most of the things worked out.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 10, 2017, 01:30:47 am
@King Mob (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=68) ,

"To become one with chaos, is to realize the symbiotic relationship between conciousness and the void. It the alchemical mix of the two that produces the gnosis neseccary to charge magic, in my opinion. "

That's a beautiful way of putting it. I really couldn't have said it better myself. I think that The Void isn't a place per se, so one doesn't "go to The Void and live there" as an afterlife or something. Rather, I think a person develops, as you've said, a symbiotic bond with The Void, which consumes the person (the merging, or "ego death," in some sense) only to remanifest as a primordial, an expression of chaos. The person will still be conscious, but it won't be a person anymore. It'll be something akin to a demon, or a Lovecraftian entity.

It's an expression of chaos which is conscious, yet at the same time "one with the chaos." This expression can and will manifest in causal and be filtered through the Laws of Physics, but also exist outside of the causal.

At least, this is how I interpret it thus far.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 10, 2017, 11:33:24 pm
@Setamorphosis (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=56) I'd love to team up and compare personal gnosis after I do some practical work and we finish developing some of our beliefs, if you'd be up for that.

I feel like our Occult views line up extremely well and every text I have read thus far has not 100 percent satisfied me. There's a lot of great information out there but I feel like it's all missing a huge aspect of the over-all path/"truth"*. Anticosmicism rejects materialism. Most LHP reject disolvement. Draconic seems great but it seems more like opening your eye in the void with conciousness than merging with it. Someone correct me of I'm wrong. Temple of Set's Black Magick is great foundational concept with the microcosm/macrocosm split.

I like the name of Ascomicism you came up with. It seems to embrace the Lovecraftian indifference the perfected initiate of this path would embody in their perfected selves and perfecetly represent the path. Again, another issue I have. Lovecraftian stuff embraces working with these entities in Faustian terms. Which is great and I like, but I have some training to do before I reach that level realistically. Esotericon is sitting the corner of my room always tempting me though.  :o  But I've never seen anything indicating you could become a Lovecraftian deity in your own right. Only a avatar of an existing one which I don't care for as it gives up free will. 


I feel like if we both commit to this for a few months, we could come up with a detailed foundation for a really fresh, interesting, and original concept. I'd love to publish this in The Imperishable Star when that time comes. 

Oh, I also highly suggest Liber Nox in Liber Null & Psychonaut. I'd like to do some work with their Alphabet of Desire that enables Hedonism. I think this is the key to embracing both the physical world and keeping a cold detachment from it.

*meaning my subjective view of the truth
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 10, 2017, 11:34:31 pm
@Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61)  If you begin working in the Draconian current, we would greatly appreciate your input as well!
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 11, 2017, 12:19:05 am
Quote
I'd love to team up and compare personal gnosis after I do some practical work and we finish developing some of our beliefs, if you'd be up for that.

@King Mob (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=68) , definitely up for it!

Quote
Draconic seems great but it seems more like opening your eye in the void with conciousness than merging with it.

I followed my intuition on this matter; I refrained from exploring the Draconian path any further. It repelled me for whatever reason.

Quote
Lovecraftian stuff embraces working with these entities in Faustian terms. Which is great and I like, but I have some training to do before I reach that level realistically.

That's fine. The Faustian approach I proposed early on in this thread was because of my own "contract" with a particular being, who insisted on working with me, contacting me via synchronicity, dreams, etc. It was pretty mind-blowing to say the least, as these weren't your regular coincidences. These events were very specific, some of which include dreams of names I had never heard in my life, as well as receiving information I couldn't have possibly known.

Quote
But I've never seen anything indicating you could become a Lovecraftian deity in your own right. Only a avatar of an existing one which I don't care for as it gives up free will.

Maybe I'm just dismissive of Lovecraft, maybe not. But I acknowledge his work as fiction, and don't bother mixing it with occultism. Now, I know chaos magick's approach on this, but I don't like working with fictional entities, whether for symbolic purposes or otherwise. Going a step further, I dismiss any myths and legends related to said fiction. I think it's very much possible to become something akin to a Lovecraftian entity. By this, I mean developing a symbiotic relationship with The Void, and essentially being The Void incarnate.

Quote
I feel like if we both commit to this for a few months, we could come up with a detailed foundation for a really fresh, interesting, and original concept. I'd love to publish this in The Imperishable Star when that time comes.

Agreed. I say we post regularly in this thread, so that others can see. Of course, we could take it elsewhere if you have gnosis or information to share which is not supposed to be too public.

Quote
Oh, I also highly suggest Liber Nox in Liber Null & Psychonaut. I'd like to do some work with their Alphabet of Desire that enables Hedonism. I think this is the key to embracing both the physical world and keeping a cold detachment from it.

I read Liber Null & Psychonaut. It's what got me into chaos magick, actually.





Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 11, 2017, 09:28:52 am
@Setamorphosis (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=56) I had that initial reaction to the Draconic path for whatever reason then my intuition and synchronicity told me to follow it at a later time and it just feels compeltely right for me. Do what thou wilt.

Ah, yeah the Faustian stuff seems of value to me. I'd like to do it as well just not at the moment. I need to awaken a few heads. It's more than valuable. I mean, it's needless to say as two LHP practioners we are going to have some disagreements or different styles and that's completely fine. It's great even. We can have some middle ground or even write our own papers regarding the different approaches to the Acosmic path. I, would over-all, like to have an outline like you have already came up with that simply has suggestions for the follower to pursue in any direction they'd like. For example, in Demonaltry you could write the over-all philosophy and I could write the Lovecraftian section for those who wish to follow it since it is not your thing. As a more practical example now, you will be following this path in your way, and you may have different and similar gnosis to me while I practice Draconic path. As a result, we'll have a more concrete foundational frame work with different suggestion on how to handle it as well as prove that you can tailor this system to your own individual preference which is necessity for any LHP system in my opinion.

I've actually never gave Lovecraft much thought or credence in the Occult either but Grant Morrison's NAMELESS is what lead me to consider LHP and Peter Carrol's Esotericon describes them as Transplutonic forces in Planetary magic. I like his grimoire of it. His biplanetary system for planetary magic as well as his Liber 555 for Elementary magic. It's such a useful book. It's the really only valid form of Lovecraft I've seen. I wouldn't give it much thought if it didn't indicate amazing forbidden knowledge in Faustian terms and have traditional grimoire workings in it. It's the chaos magic version of the Goetia to me, really. It's such a beatiful system he created. I think it's worth something that Lovecraft came up with most of his stories inspirations in his dreams and most Lovecraftian work occurs in the dream-scape. Either way though, I find the Lovecraftian diety the best symbolic example for what one would achieve in this path. They don't want entire destruction of the universe like anti-cosmic dieties. They just become indifferent as seeing it as insignificant compared to them as they have a much different understanding of it. Now, my concern here is I don't want to incorporate criminal behavior into it in any way which I know you don't as well. I feel all destruction should be limited to situations and the self for personal growh ala Liber Nox's Transmogrification. I mean, people might be emotionally hurt in the process as collateral damage but that's quite different than what the O9A encourages. We may have to put a disclaimer in when we officially publish this due to the less than reputable anticosmic branches that encourage it.

I've read Liber Null a long time ago but I like to revisit it every now and then to refresh my memory. I just did with Liber Nox last night and it aligns close with the LHP path view of Chaos naturally.

Also, it's needless to say that not ALL our magical workings have to be related to or recorded into this path if we explore other avenues at the same time. Which we should if Acosmicism and becoming one with chaos entails manifesting in multiple different possibilities.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 11, 2017, 10:16:59 am
@Setamorphosis (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=56)  This is my attempt to restructure your framework into necessary and window dressing and add my own. Let me know what you think. This is not structured in order of importance btw.

GOAL: To self-deify as an Acosmic deity. One that is simultaneously one with the void and a self-diefied ego/conciousness that may choose to manifest however it wishes due to it's alchemical marriage with the void.

CORE PHILOSOPHY


1. Demonolatry - choosing 1 particular demon or acosmic force to align yourself with, and work with it as partners/teacher-student dynamic in Faustian sense. Aligning your personality with the Archetype to understand Remanifestation and Merging. You must simply attain "Forbidden Knowledge" in this path.

2. Buddhism/Daoism-To understand the nature of chaos from a RHP perspective. Also, RHP work is useful for shedding what we tell ourselves are our egos falsely.

3. Necromancy. In order to overcome the boundaries of death. "That which is dead can not eternal lie but in strange aeons even death may die."

4. Antinomianism- to overcome worldy boundaries.

5. Setianism- To understand Xeper and Remanifestation. Also, their model of Macrocosm/Microcosm and black magick. Their perspective on ethics also would prevent people from going overboard on antinomianism as well as prevent problems caused by hedonism and transmogrification.

6. Chaos Magick-work with Liber Nox seems like it would be essential. Also, in general to understand Chaos from an disattached perspective that could be either LHP or RHP. Liber Nox also gives a LHP perspective of chaos. Transmogrification(creating situations that transform you based on your own will power) and Alphabet of Desire(Hedonism to fully embrace the material world) seem key. Both of these will create a Buddhist sense of detachment while still embracing LHP philosophy in whatever way you choose to remanifest yourself at that time.

7. Luciferianism/Thursatru-Courtesy of Thursatru, I see Satanism as awakening the conciousness ie the black flame where as I see Lucifer as the gaurder of the Anticosmic/Acosmic flame. Lucifer might be a bard archetpye for this but he's the closest to Loki who serves the same role. My previous thought on magic gnosis+conciousness=magick comes into play here.

8. Draconian. In philosophy only; you must simply open your eye to the void if you ever want to become chaos. Their transendence of time seems necessary if you wish to become an Acosmic diety. Also, what do you think of their view on working with: A god of Conciousness(Odin/Satan), a great mother (Babalon/Lilith), and Serpent(Apophis/Orobous). Orobous seems central to the transcendence of time as well. Also, what do you think of my adendum of God of Gnosis(i.e; Loki) so that anti-cosmicism is represented and we have a complete achemical marriage. Those who do not wish to work with Gods can convert this to an alchemical formula easily.


WINDOW DRESSING. (These may influence the path tangentially or might be how we achieve goals in the path but is not necessary to follow it)

1. Haitian Vodoun, possibly. The Voudoun Gnostic workbook seems to hold some great exercises related to time and you have personal interest

2. Norse Magick, specifically rune magick - utilizing the Thurisaz rune, possibly embracing the acausal, chaotic power of the Jotun. Thursatru goes here as well. My work with the Dragon Runes. This will probably be my speciality in this path.

3. Hinduism, possibly. I don't work with Hindu Gods as we don't get along too well. They're too Right Hand Path for me. But you could understand how one can have multiple manifestations from it's study and you seem interested.

4. Ancient Sumerian elements (linked to Demonolatry)

5. Egyptian Elements- As a Thelemic Black Brother, this is naturally going to influence my own personal approach. I like the Temple of Set's Order of Horus philosophy in using the Hawk God as a symbol of personal power. The only key element here is the pursuit of Power. I could write an essay on the First Pharoah who united Lower and Upper Kingdoms of Egypt maybe as an example to follow for unification in this path but eh, I wouldn't say someone needs to use Egyptian elements to pursue it.



So what do you think?

My only other note you seem to reject the destructive forces of the universe. I think they're key in a metaphorical sense. You need to self-destruct in order to re-manifest. Here, destruction is not seen as the end of everything but a shedding of old skins that make way for something stronger.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 11, 2017, 12:19:46 pm
@King Mob (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=68) ,

Quote
GOAL: To self-deify as an Acosmic deity. One that is simultaneously one with the void and a self-diefied ego/conciousness that may choose to manifest however it wishes due to it's alchemical marriage with the void.

Yes.

Quote
1. Demonolatry...

Yes, although the merging of the archetype should be optional, in my opinion. Those who don't believe in archetype, or view these forces and beings as something more than archetypes (again, it depends how you define the term) could refrain from the alignment. Another cool approach would be to choose a demon or an acosmic being that's different from you (doesn't match your personality), so that you can learn more. Choosing an opposite being, for instance, could be of great benefit. Let's say you have a person who's rather hateful, and a misanthrope. This person could form an alliance of a being which represents love - the rewards to be reaped from this arrangement are great. The person can and will grow so much from the experiences with said being. All the person has to do is be open-minded. Combine this with insight roles, and you get some powerful stuff.

Quote
2. Buddhism/Daoism

Yup, although I'd do some cherry-picking, so to speak. Take ideas that are great from these two paths, and discard the rest. Also, meditations are important. I recommend doing them, if you don't already. Funny enough, the meditation where you strive to quiet/empty your mind is called "Void Meditation" by some.

Quote
3. Necromancy.

I propose a different type of necromancy. Instead of communication with the dead, graverobbing, and other things necromancy implies, I would focus on a more proper spiritual aspect - and that is Necromantic Alchemy. That is to say, embracing death in the sense of destroying your "old self," only to be born anew. I don't define death as the end of organs' function. Rather, I define death as the end of the person or a persona, in a physical and/or spiritual sense. Death, in this sense, fits Xeper and Remanifestation processes quite nicely.

Quote
Antinomianism

Yes, but this should not be taken to extremes. This can easily be interpreted as "Fuck the laws, time to commit some beautiful slaughter!" No, one should look at the costs and benefits before acting.

Quote
5. Setianism

Definitely.

Quote
6. Chaos Magick

Yup. I should really read Liber Nox, though.

Quote
7. Luciferianism/Thursatru

Of course!

Quote
8. Draconian. I

To me, that's essentially the same as opening the third eye. Some might disagree, but I'd argue that the third eye is a very vague concept, and can apply to many different things, contrary to popular belief.

About the workings, though - Are you suggesting that one should align themselves with ALL 3 of those types of entities, or pick 1 one of those?

Quote
1. Haitian Vodoun,

I highly recommend reading The Spider & The Green Butterfly by E.A. Koetting. I'd utilize the following concepts of Haitian Vodoun:

1. "Possession." Instead of opening yourself up to the Loa, one could open themselves up to be "possessed" by the powers of The Void. Let yourself be consumed by the maddening darkness.

2. You can draw some nice inspirations for curses.

I know Haitian Vodoun is so much more than what I just wrote above, but frankly, I'm not a religious person, and I don't want to be a part of any religion. That's why I discard most of Haitian Vodoun. I take ideas I like, discard what I don't like.

Quote
2. Norse Magick

Isn't Thurisaz a negative rune, though? It represents the uncontrollable forces, which cause harm to someone, no? If so, it'd make for a great curse, but for self-empowerment, not so much.

Quote
3. Hinduism

Let's leave Hinduism out of this. I don't work with their gods either. As you've said, too RHP. And I have no interest in exploring it, after all.

Quote
4. Ancient Sumerian elements

Linked to Demonolatry, yeah. Many, if not most, demons are Sumerian gods, anyway. ALSO, I'd like to add this: Working with 50 Names of Marduk could prove very rewarding. 50 Names of Marduk are very much like Goetia. If you work with the Goetia whenever you have certain ends you need to achieve already, you can work with the following names:

1. Marduk (magic)
2. Marutukku (protection)
3. Zulummar (physical strength)
4. Lugalabdubur (attacker/defender)
5. Aranunna (gates, covenant)
6. Tuku (baneful magic)

These names are nothing like the spirits of Goetia; that is, their functions and attributes are not the same.

Quote
My only other note you seem to reject the destructive forces of the universe. I think they're key in a metaphorical sense. You need to self-destruct in order to re-manifest. Here, destruction is not seen as the end of everything but a shedding of old skins that make way for something stronger.

I've thought about this. I think I'm more learning to accept them now. In fact, I wouldn't totally be against the idea of destroying the universe itself either, but not in the ways MLO or similar groups imagined. I'm against vandalism, as I think it's barbaric. But, suppose that you could destroy the universe via spiritual means, and thus ensuring the freedom of every living thing in this universe, freeing them from their own nature & nurture programming. It's, in a way, abolishing of slavery. In this sense, I wouldn't be totally against the idea of anti-cosmicism.

I'll still stick with the concept and the name of Acosmicism. I'm just entertaining the ideas of destruction, that's all.

Thoughts?

PS. Working with a consciousness god could be very rewarding. You know, I read somewhere that Satan might have actually come from the word Wotan/Wodan. Wotan/Wotanaz is far closer to the word Satan/Satanaz/Satanas than Odin, funny enough. Not because of the spelling, but because of the root words and letters. If I find the source, I'll let you know. What do you think about this as well btw? Could it be the same entity?
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 11, 2017, 01:03:33 pm


Demonology:

I agree with this but I think for those who don't believe in archetypes, they should at the very least practice insight roles which seems to be what you are suggesting. I simply use archetypes as it is the language I use as someone very into Jung.

Buddhism/Daoism:

We've done some meditations in the corpse pose in my yoga class that are very RHP. She places emphasis on the ego being important and the purposes of these meditations is forming a "compassionate witness" so they you can look at yourself as objectively as possible without reacting. She also emphasises that we shouldn't destroy the ego. What do you think of this philosophy? I agree with cherry picking but if we ever come up with a recommended reading list(which is enitrely optional) Tao Te Jing seems like it would be a good fit.

Necromancy.

Yes and no. I agree with you on Necromatnic alchemy but I think necromancy is valuable as well. I don't support grave robbing. However, graveyard dirt is common in a lot of hoodoo spells. Nordic Paganism's ancestor work can be viewed as socially acceptible form of necromancy as well. Same thing with Chinese Ancestor Worship. As within, so without. Exploring it without could help with Necromantic Alchemy. I recommend the Necromantic Handbook for some ideas on this, if you haven't read it. It's rather grim, it suggests sleeping next to a corpse in pitch black tomb over night to overcome your fear of death. I don't recommend this personally so find my version of necromancy less barbaric than traditonal Necromantic Alchemy. However, I love this concept of Necromantic Alchemy and what I was trying to hint at in my lovecraft strange aeons quote. I trust you to develop some practical methods for this more than I can.

We can agree to disagree and you can emphasise the Necromantic qualities and I can emphasize the Necromancy qualities, if you want.

Antinomianism.

Yes, I agree with you. Liber Nox's Alphabet of Desire and Temple of Set's view on ethics should provide a good counterbalance to Antinomianism in my opinion. And again, I'd like to put in a disclaimer we don't encourage or accept extremes.

Chaos magic.

You already did, it's part of Liber Null. It should be good to refresh your memory. It has the basic of a lot of approaches in it.

Draconian.

To me, the awakening of the third eye equates to clarovoiancy. Draconian to me seems more akin to a HGA experience that they call Daemon. It's more akin to their self-realization. We don't follow this strictly for our path(though my gnosis will come from this, I'm sure) but place emphasis on stuff like void meditation and developing that. I would say the first three heads of the dragon are the traditional "third eye opening" rather than their abyss. The transcendence of time seems important in their philosophy and Peter Carrol himself hinted at this possibility in Psybermagic. We don't have to follow either of their examples but I feel we should explore the mysteries of time. A lot of Thursatru and Rokktru communicate with Jorgummandr for this which is a norse version of Orobous. I'm sure we have various options

As for the 4 Gods. Apophis suggests working with all three. I had the fourth. I will be working with in God forms and people can do that if they wish, but I'm esentially suggesting at an alchemical formula. Strengthened Concioussness+Identification with Void Gnosis+Great Mother archetype(I don't know what this translates to- sex magick and necromatnic alchemy?)+Orobous mysteries(mysteries of time and reicarnation in how we describe)=Ascomic Deification.

I'm sure I will have more specifics as I work with them. What your thoughts?

Hatian Voudoun:

Invocation is useful. I've done it with Godforms and dead rock-stars. From percieving other people who have invoked abyssal energies and the warnings of a few texts, I find this extremely risky. It is not my place to do it and I think it should be an option for those who wish to but I will find myself practicing it only in certain extreme circumstances.

I agree that it has nice ideas for curses and I personally classify this under hoodoo and sympathetic magic. It can apply to all kind of spells, not just curses.

Norse Magick.

Nope, it's a common misunderstanding though. It also represent's Thor's Hammer! It's vital energy. Uncontrolled and raw. Put two back to back and you have the Nordic version of a ying/yang symbol. as well as a Thurs/Ng/Isa bind rune! It can be incredibly destructive and is suited for curses but also for protection(self empowerment). Thursatru works with anticosmic forces. Some like Gullveig seem destructive and dark, she's similar to Lilith and Hekate. However, Loki is a Thurs and is a very complicated figure who plays a role in Ragnarok but loves to partake in the world as well. However, if you work with runes- you should work with all the runes. It's a system that requires a study of the whole. Thursatru my preferred version of anticosmicism is it is less extreme, especially in how I interpret it.

Ancient Sumerian Elements.

I agree with this as an option. There's also a grimoire out there based on working with the Sumerian Demon Kings. I've only really worked with Ishtar who I like. I think this is a great option for those who don't wish to work with Goetia. What I propose is that you develop Sumerian option of the Goetia with little input from it while I investigate the Lovecraftian version of it to make options open for everyone. At the basis, we'll have a system for someone to even put their own skin on it.|

I completely agree with your thoughts on destruction. Reject the extremes. Spiritual destruction seems okay. I like the Loki model which is akin to Liber Nox's Transmogrification. Create and destroy situations at the whim. I say emotional collateral damage is part of it because naturally some peopel will be hurt if they don't understand your sense of detachment. Again, why I harken back to Temple of Set's views ethics is to counteract this from devolving into a cruel person. Indifference is not sadistic. It may appear that way tp outsiders but there's an important distinction.

Your thoughts?




Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 11, 2017, 01:20:25 pm
Quote
ego being important and the purposes of these meditations is forming a "compassionate witness" so they you can look at yourself as objectively as possible without reacting.

I've encountered this philosophy before through some self-proclaimed New Agers. I agree with it.

Quote
We can agree to disagree and you can emphasise the Necromantic qualities and I can emphasize the Necromancy qualities, if you want.

Sure, I'll think of some practical methods of Necromantic Alchemy. I already have some ideas, but I'll first flesh them out in my head before revealing them, so they appear more coherent, specific, and unique.

Quote
You already did, it's part of Liber Null. It should be good to refresh your memory. It has the basic of a lot of approaches in it.

Herp, derp. Time to re-read.

Quote
It's more akin to their self-realization.

Ah, I see. I'll look into this technique, then. As for the gods, I'd say that consciousness gods would be Set, Enki, Odin, Satan (first that come to mind). Great Mother: Lilith, Astaroth/Astarte/Ishtar, and Freyja (she's also a goddess of war, AND a portion of souls do go to her. There is a dark aspect to, which very few people bother exploring). Serpent: Jormugand, Ouroboros, Leviathan.

I like the idea, I might get into this as soon as possible, actually.

Quote
Norse Magick.

Ah, my bad. Thanks for the correction. Then, yes, harnessing the power of this rune would be very beneficial.

Quote
Ancient Sumerian Elements.

Indeed, we need a variety. I'm interested in this grimoire, by the way. Do you know what it is its name?

Quote
Again, why I harken back to Temple of Set's views ethics is to counteract this from devolving into a cruel person. Indifference is not sadistic. It may appear that way tp outsiders but there's an important distinction.

Thanks for telling me this. Since I'm exploring the darkest depths of my psyche, it's good to be reminded that I'm not a sadistic psychopath. Just indifferent to quite a few things, as well as possessing ideas which would definitely be considered demonic and evil by the majority (e.g. destruction of the universe (spiritual)).

By the way, you didn't answer my question about Wodan being Satan. It's the last paragraph in my previous post, if you've missed it.



Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 11, 2017, 01:40:57 pm
Ah, sorry the question got lost in my attempt to answer everything.

Your correspondences(minus Ishtar) are actually the exact ones given in Apophis and the Book of the Dragon Runes! So I agree with this and also nominate Gullveig as a darker aspect of the Great Mother in the Nordic current. As for Wotan/Odin, that's interesting. I don't know enough gramatically to verify this but I'm pretty sure they are the same archetype. I'd love to see the sources that explain gramatically. I've seen them linked as similar figures in many books. There's three different dragons listed in the book of dragon runes though that make up the whole aspect.

I actually suggest using both Liber Lux(RHP) and Liber Nox(LHP) from Liber Null for this. Liber Nox is more relevant but there's some invaluable tools in Liber Lux such as divination and invocation. Pick and choose from Liber Lux and adjust it obviously.

It's the Grimoire of Tiamat. Here's the description from Amazon:

"Tiamat is the Primal Dragon Goddess, the first one, who gave birth to the gods of the universe", the Mother of Everything, the self-procreating womb, the source of all life and all manifestation. The work described in this book was inspired by the Babylonian epic known as the "Enuma Elish", one of the oldest Creation myths in the world. The Grimoire of Tiamat presents a complete system of magick based around the Mesopotamian primordial goddess Tiamat and the eleven demons she created to aid her in her fight against the new order of gods lead by Marduk. The book is divided into three sections: first, a lengthy introduction of the theme and cosmology, followed by individual workings for each of the eleven demon-gods, and then a concluding appendix of thematically related workings focusing directly on Tiamat and Kingu. The second section, The Children of Tiamat, presents ways of working with each of the eleven demon-gods, prefaced with an explanation of the techniques that follow and the use of the Key of Night, a master sigil that is employed throughout the workings as a way to access the Nightside. The final section of The Grimoire of Tiamat is an appendix that returns the focus to Tiamat as it takes the form of a guided meditation within the waters of Tiamat, a ritual for two participants invoking Tiamat and Kingu, a rite of malefica, and a discussion of the underworld in Mesopotamian belief, followed by a chthonic guided path working."

I feel like there's another one similar to this I might be thinking of instead. Also from my griomoire wishlist, Eye of the Oracle seems very relevant to our path and an option for exploring the void for this that don't wish to work with anything Draconian.

"Delving into the mysterious realm of of psionic power, the Grandmaster of the Maergzjiran Cabal, Somnus Dreadwood explains the works of psychic magick as would be taught to the Disciple ascending the Tower of the Void. It covers everything from basic meditations to the absolute transformation as an Eye of the Oracle; an individual who has mastered these magnificent and expansive arts. Such topics covered are meditation, remote viewing, telepathy, aura reading, divination and clairvoyance, Voidwalking, psychometabolic augmentation, the use of intention as a weapon, mantras, mundras, kuji-in-like energy channeling, servants of the astral plane, traveling beyond the mortal plane, transcending the flesh, a built-in void journal, and more. As a Cabal Grimoire, it is broken down by book to guide the Disciple from beginning to end as would be taught in the Maergzjiran Cabal's Tower of the Void."

It also seems to be related to Necromancy from the reviews. Hmm.

And yeah, I have a lot of indifferent tendences some that develop as I travel this path. It just comes from my personality type being more logical. I don't undestand a lot of things. It doesn't mean I'm cruel or sadistic. Most people who know me would describe me as an extremely nice guy, honestly. If you're close to me and a friend, then I'm pretty kind. However, I had a ex call my "Spock" as an insult because I didn't understand her over-emotionalnesss. What it does mean practically though is in situations where our spiritual views or selfishness is prioritized, we can be a little cold or detached and that can be hurtful. Doesn't mean we take pleasure in other's pain or seek it out. IMO, everyone does this to some degree. We're all a little selfish. I interpret destruction of the universe to be about the subjective universes by the way. Most, even LHP practicioners I feel, would disagree with as individual will is paramount but if someone is obviously not practicing their will, there's nothing wrong with shaking their subjective universe up a little.



Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Liu on October 13, 2017, 08:35:29 am

PS. Working with a consciousness god could be very rewarding. You know, I read somewhere that Satan might have actually come from the word Wotan/Wodan. Wotan/Wotanaz is far closer to the word Satan/Satanaz/Satanas than Odin, funny enough. Not because of the spelling, but because of the root words and letters. If I find the source, I'll let you know. What do you think about this as well btw? Could it be the same entity?
 (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=68)
I noticed the video you posted about this in the chat, and just a heads up by an actual linguist: it's full of bullshit.
Using the Greek spelling to derive a Hebrew word's relationship to a German one makes no sense in the first place. The Digamma-letter they mention wasn't used anymore since centuries at the time of the New Testament (except as a numeral), nor does it even appear in the Greek spelling of Satan. (Well, the last letter of "Σατανας" does look a bit like the numeral shape ϛ of digamma, but it's a different sign and is not even the letter they refer to in the video).
The Fehu rune is pronounced different from the Digamma (and wouldn't even appear in the runic spelling of Wotan). Not saying that there might be no relation between them as the letter shape of digamma (Ϝ) has some similarities to the Fehu rune ᚠ and yes, w and f have some phonological similarities. But actually, words that would have been spelt with a fehu in Germanic would have been spelt with a pi (π) in Greek, e.g. the Ancient Greek etymological equivalent to English "foot", Germanic "fōts" is Ancient Greek "πούς".

The etymology of Odin/Wotan is not completely certain (but well, nothing is completely certain in this science). But from what I read in actual scientific literature again and again, it goes back to a word probably referring to a change of consciousness, like rage or ecstasy, possibly one induced by shamanic practices.
It's etymologically related to for example German "wüten" ("to wreck havok"), or "Wut" ("anger"). That it's lacking the "w" in Northern Germanic languages is a completely normal pronunciation change that occurs in language history all the time. Also the vowel difference in the second syllable is not that uncommon.

I see no way how a Indo-European word for rage and a Semitic word for adversary could be likely etymologically related, especially due to the lack of language contact at the necessary points in time. Well, admittedly, there is one not so mainstream hypothesis that there were some Semitic tribes (e.g. Phoenicians) in western Europe which had a certain influence on the development of the Germanic language and from which several loan words were taken. I don't know enough about Semitic languages to tell how likely or unlikely that hypothesis is. But even if it's true, and the Germanic peoples actually adopted the name of Satan from some Semitic language, the sound shifts which this would have gone through would have most likely resulted in something very different from "Wotan" or "Odin", and it at least would have nothing at all to do with the "explanation" in that video.

Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 13, 2017, 11:08:11 am
Thanks for your input, @Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) .

I've read somewhere that the meaning of the word satan, 'adversary,' isn't supported by a lot of evidence either. Instead, the word suggests an attack, a violent attack. Not sure if it's correct, though.

As for Wotan-Satan, though the word may not be derived from Wotan, there's still a lot of similarities between the two. They could very well be considered different interpretations of the same thing.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Liu on October 13, 2017, 11:45:56 am
Thanks for your input, @Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) .
You're welcome.

Quote
I've read somewhere that the meaning of the word satan, 'adversary,' isn't supported by a lot of evidence either. Instead, the word suggests an attack, a violent attack. Not sure if it's correct, though.
I haven't heard of that before, but who knows. As I said, I don't speak any Semitic language.

Quote
As for Wotan-Satan, though the word may not be derived from Wotan, there's still a lot of similarities between the two. They could very well be considered different interpretations of the same thing.
That's for sure. As I'm agnostic to the metaphysical status of deities, I won't speculate on which level they are or aren't the same, but I see how aspects of those two can be easily interpreted to reflect aspects of the same force.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Xepera maSet on October 13, 2017, 11:50:41 am
I had a ton of Hebrew education growing up. So far as I know "adversary" is a pretty accurate translation of "ha-satan."
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 13, 2017, 12:51:06 pm
@Xepera maSet (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3) ah, alright.

@King Mob (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=68) , just dropping by here to say: the 3 god plan (Great Mother, God of Consciousness, and Serpent/Dragon of Chaos) is brilliant. I think I think I'll choose a very dark force for the serpent / dragon of chaos.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Kapalika on October 15, 2017, 04:25:52 am
I tried to read all the posts but skimmed pages 2 and 3 lol. I didn't know I was late to the party darn it.

Many will say that the anti-cosmic philosophy is edgy, childish, or what have you. But I think there's something interesting in this approach.

I've always said it seems weirdly semantical. Even if you became a love-craftian horror or whatever, they were cosmic horrors. I mean, there is no "outside" of the cosmos by definition. If you went "outside" of it you would just expand the scope of the cosmos. Simply existing within the cosmos.

It's way too edgey to be RHP despite sharing some goals and I think there's some differences. I think Buddhists want to be one with the universe, and would see the abyss as a natural part of it, where as anti-cosmicists would see chaos as the only truth. It's focused on seperation from the demi-urge.

2. Buddhism

As far as I am aware Buddhism doesn't believe in a soul. They believe in the "not-self" as far as I've ever been told. Make of that what you will.

Makes the most sense, really. I'm already undergoing this process. I'm still indecisive about the God-self, though.

Now, the end goal is something I've been pondering. Suppose you return to the chaos, merge with it, it's a seeming RHP goal, BUT I might just be speaking in human words here. Maybe there is no merging after all. Since chaos is all possibilities and none at the same time, one could argue that you merge, but are your own independent entity at the same time.

[snippet]

You become independent (LHP goal) & You merge with something greater (RHP goal).

Best of both worlds, eh?

I don't know about the other stuff in this post but you actually hit on something I didn't expect to find in here:

"Since chaos is all possibilities and none at the same time, one could argue that you merge, but are your own independent entity at the same time."

You've just very aptly described how Shivagama is described in Trika (Kashmir Shaivism, whatever). I'm actually pretty impressed. I wouldn't of called it chaos, maybe Shiva or Satan, but the thing there is the same, just different symbols and names.

I personally avoid the word "merge" due to connotations and being imprecise, but it gets the job done sometimes.

Anyways I find it really interesting that someone else thinks of it as such by way of Satanism. I actually stumbled upon Trika because it was so similar to the Satanic system I developed, much like you seem to be developing a system now.

However something important to note,  I wouldn't call Trika anti-cosmic... if anything this Universe becomes the vessel of one's expression, not something to shun. So maybe you would differ with me on that. If so I don't know what I could offer since the Universe plays a big role in becoming one's "Shakti" in that system. But it's nice to see something comparable.

In either case don't worry about it, it sounds perfectly LHP to me. Again I wouldn't of used the merge language but @Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) was right earlier in saying it's in line with the eastern view of LHP (or at least the nondual LHP I'm familiar with, not sure about dualistic LHP Shakta; I'm just a Shaivite, and my branch of shaivism has been near dead for centuries).
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Liu on October 15, 2017, 05:42:18 am
I tried to read all the posts but skimmed pages 2 and 3 lol. I didn't know I was late to the party darn it.
Welcome back ^^

Quote
I've always said it seems weirdly semantical. Even if you became a love-craftian horror or whatever, they were cosmic horrors. I mean, there is no "outside" of the cosmos by definition. If you went "outside" of it you would just expand the scope of the cosmos. Simply existing within the cosmos.
I would say that "out of the cosmos" here means "outside of the laws of nature, including time and logic". You could argue that such a "place" would still be part of the cosmos by simply existing, but actually this chaos is seen as "existing" beyond even the duality of existence and non-existence.
Make of that mystic babble what you will.

Regarding Lovecraftian deities, I have encountered interpretations that considered them to be extra-cosmic, but admittedly that doesn't seem to be canon.

Quote
"Since chaos is all possibilities and none at the same time, one could argue that you merge, but are your own independent entity at the same time."

You've just very aptly described how Shivagama is described in Trika (Kashmir Shaivism, whatever). I'm actually pretty impressed. I wouldn't of called it chaos, maybe Shiva or Satan, but the thing there is the same, just different symbols and names.
  :mrgreen: Thought about the same when I read that post.

Quote
However something important to note,  I wouldn't call Trika anti-cosmic... if anything this Universe becomes the vessel of one's expression, not something to shun. So maybe you would differ with me on that. If so I don't know what I could offer since the Universe plays a big role in becoming one's "Shakti" in that system. But it's nice to see something comparable.
I can't speak for @Setamorphosis (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=56), but I have the impression that his version is anticosmic in a different sense than from what e.g. the MLO seems to refer to in their writings. On the other hand, even they don't seem to always take their own claims that literally.

Quote
In either case don't worry about it, it sounds perfectly LHP to me. Again I wouldn't of used the merge language but @Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) was right earlier in saying it's in line with the eastern view of LHP (or at least the nondual LHP I'm familiar with, not sure about dualistic LHP Shakta; I'm just a Shaivite, and my branch of shaivism has been near dead for centuries).
Always nice when my vague understanding of Shaivism gets confirmed by an actual practitioner  :D
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 15, 2017, 10:17:56 am
@Kapalika (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=24)  That is extremely great insight about Shivaism.

Lovecraftian is a bit of weird description because I've used it a couple times here. O9A and Thursatru seem to believe in these forces that exist within the abyss, that are forces of the abyss, that only want destruction. O9A uses a lot of Lovecraftian-esque writing so I used it in there sense. I think there's a role of that in there but not in the extreme of O9A but more akin to Thursatru's work with giants which is far less extreme. Generally anticosmic forces exsit within the abyss which most people count as outside the cosmos.

I think this is accurate, the abyss is seen as the place in between this cosmos and kether by some RHP philosophies. One might see as it the bleed between the multiverse. A lot of interpretations. What existed before the big bang. Etc. Most interpret Cosmos to mean this specific universe in manifestation but I'm sure one could argue it to mean that includes everything including could bes, what-ifs, nothings.

When I use it in my own terms, I mean to describe something entirely indifferent to our understanding of things. I think Peter Carrol describes it best when he calls them Tranplutonary Forces. Or they could possibly be the darkest parts of our own mind.

We agree with you on not calling it anticosmic, we are calling it Acosmic in order to represent indifference. Yes, we would say the universe as something to be a vehicle of our expression. However, a follower would also be okay with destruction of the universe/a universe if it furthered their goals. I don't mean this in the sense of physical desctruction but that they would be okay interfering with someone's microcosm or destroying the multiple possible futures in order to cement the one they want, if that makes sense.

Working through Apophis now, my goals in this path seem to be closely aligned with the goals of Kelly's Draconic path and how they view things but I think this would take it a step farther, in my ideals, by redefining one's views of the Cosmos as something bigger an expanding their view of the void, as well.

Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 15, 2017, 11:53:20 am
The thought occured to me when reading Dreamlands for Halloween purposes and Apophis:

A central tennant to Lovecraftian's influence can be to explore your own dreamlands. Apophis recommends mapping out the landscape of your dreams. A lot of Lovecraftian occultists believed you could gain secret arcane knowledge from his Dreamlands. We could combine the two.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Liu on October 15, 2017, 01:38:08 pm
I think this is accurate, the abyss is seen as the place in between this cosmos and kether by some RHP philosophies. One might see as it the bleed between the multiverse. A lot of interpretations. What existed before the big bang. Etc. Most interpret Cosmos to mean this specific universe in manifestation but I'm sure one could argue it to mean that includes everything including could bes, what-ifs, nothings.

Since you mention Keter - I think those that combine qabbalah with chaos rather see chaos as being even beyond Keter (or Taumiel in qliphotic terms). More like the Ain Sof. The abyss would be somewhere on the way to it, but not it itself.

Quote
When I use it in my own terms, I mean to describe something entirely indifferent to our understanding of things. I think Peter Carrol describes it best when he calls them Tranplutonary Forces. Or they could possibly be the darkest parts of our own mind.
Yeah, that's always the question - are we describing something out there or something inside ourselves? And does it even make a difference?
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Kapalika on October 15, 2017, 10:21:32 pm
@Kapalika (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=24)  That is extremely great insight about Shivaism.

Lovecraftian is a bit of weird description because I've used it a couple times here. O9A and Thursatru seem to believe in these forces that exist within the abyss, that are forces of the abyss, that only want destruction. O9A uses a lot of Lovecraftian-esque writing so I used it in there sense. I think there's a role of that in there but not in the extreme of O9A but more akin to Thursatru's work with giants which is far less extreme. Generally anticosmic forces exsit within the abyss which most people count as outside the cosmos.

I think this is accurate, the abyss is seen as the place in between this cosmos and kether by some RHP philosophies. One might see as it the bleed between the multiverse. A lot of interpretations. What existed before the big bang. Etc. Most interpret Cosmos to mean this specific universe in manifestation but I'm sure one could argue it to mean that includes everything including could bes, what-ifs, nothings.

Thanks. As far as the cosmic stuff I guess to me, knowing the alienness that can exist just within this reality I find it hard to call truly alien "not of this reality" things acosmic since so much can be beyond our comprehension anyway but I get what you mean. The "inbetweenness" of different "realities" or Universes is an interesting one I've seen in some fictional world building before. Maybe "extracosmic" as a term would work betterm just because "extra-universal" sounds kinda weird... normally in say Cosmology the Cosmos is considered all Universes. However I suppose there could be something even "outside" of that that is immaterial that could be considered acosmic which is what someone could refer to.

This is all why I kinda find it semantical. It can mean so many different things depending on how far it's being taken, and I find it important to denote intention of thought and that not get lost in the connotations of the language and symbolism.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 15, 2017, 11:35:01 pm
@Kapalika (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=24)  Another reason I think Acosmic and Anticosmic are used is not to describe where they come from but how they react torwards this universe. Acosmic forces are completely different and Anticosmic are seeking it's destruction.

Nameless is a pretty amazing Lovecraftian comic written by a chaos magician who knows his shit about the occult and it's pretty much him exploring the tunnels of set. He posits these forces as coming from a "evil" Universe B.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 15, 2017, 11:36:53 pm
You can see a lot of Universe A/Universe B. Matter/Antimatter and so on in a lot of heady comics and sci-fi.

I thnk DC comics just updated their cosmic lore to have the Anti-matter universe as well as the Dark Matter universe.

Nameless is the only one I know that visited the topic drawing heavily from occultism instead of inevitiably drawing from some concepts almost by accident due to the nature of the plot.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on October 23, 2017, 03:53:44 pm
Hmmm, so I have a lot to say after this after my recent initation from personal gnosis allowing me to find the common thread in a lot of these systems. The Great Perfection Doctrine really helped me to put together some things. It's view on Right Hand Path and Left Hand path seem contradictory at first to what most people would believe but when it gets into chaos, I think the reconciliation here is gnosticism.

Kether is the demi-urge, ain-sof or whatever, chaos, is the ultimate creator. The primoridal borneless one. We've got the definition of chaos already put together but the whole issue here is how is merging with chaos left hand path. We've been over this mostly but I think finishing The Great Perfection Doctrine well help my realize it. It seems to advocate a true middle path.

I've got some thoughts on it from reskimming my Thursatru books, it goes back to that nature of threefold self sacrfice as symbolized by that one rune as well as Gullveig thrice burned. Also, the draconic path which sacrifices the dragon to the hero and the hero to the God. I have a lot of ideas whirling around in my head but I don't want to post more til I've sorted them out and refined them. Further more, I'll be busy for a whole week so I won't be around too much if at all. I've found a couple practical uses for the Acosmicism and Anticosmicism and how it can apply to one's ego in a self deifying way.
 
I'm rather covinced that most of the practical sorcerous workings of this is to be found in The Book of Leviathan as well as the practical work in Apophis and Aegishjalmur. 

Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on October 27, 2017, 03:46:04 pm
First off, sorry about my inactivity. I'm quite busy these days as you can Imagine. :(

Secondly, I've an idea:

The consciousness is part of the void - it's partially 'chaotic.' The consciousness does not have to return to the void itself and dwell there. It can take on a new vessel. The void is the bornless creator - and by your request, it can create you a new "form." This form being your deified-self. Like an astral body. The transference of consciousness into this new form could be a form of self-defication which is true to LHP.

By presencing the power of the acausal void, you/it can create your own -- new astral body and be like the gods themselves.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on November 15, 2017, 02:43:12 pm
@Setamorphosis (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=56)  I agree completely! There's actually some controversial ideas in the Liber Nox section of Liber Null & Psychonaut involving this. It's the basis of chaos magick in general when it gets to creation of Egregores and such, at least in the beginning. I feel chaos magic has evolved into a more psychological explanation. Including one that advocates sucide with the intention of reincarnating as your child. There's a lot on soul transference.

Chaos is the bornless one, I would agree. Now, my question, is where does Crowley's Choronzon fit into this. I honestly don't have the courage to find out at this point, as his Choronzon invocation is perhaps the seemingly most dangerous expiriment he pulled in his career. Speaking of Crowley, I honestly feel Thelema's philsophy advocate doing exactly what you said. The star one takes its place as is a new godform and crossing the abyss is delving into chaos.

However, I don't believe you should give up everything. You need to strengthen your core self so that it will remain no matter what. You need to be prepared to shed everything but the core self as it is unessecary to a godform. Perhaps careful study of the soul transference rituals in Liber Nox can point torwards a way to do this. We'd have to create a completely new soul transference ritual and- there is literally no way to prove it works. It's even more of a gamble than using existing ones.

And I apologize for not being around as well. I've been busy with various things and my studies have led me other LHP philosophies and a focus on the material. I am still very much interested in developing this path as well.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on November 22, 2017, 12:10:20 pm
So update. If you give everything up to cross the abyss, you are only giving up false egos and selves. Your core conciousness will remain- I speculate this is the "true self/true will/ and possible even the HGA/Daemon or at least connected to it."

This is needed for the Acosmic path after studying the channeled text from Michael Kelly's Apophis as well as the Black Flame Tarot. This leads to remanifestation. Once you know your true self, you can allow your true self to play in the world in whichever way you want and then eliminate false selves when they become useless.

It's not to say this is the end goal. Even in Apophis, it's around the middle goal and the key is to remanifesting constantly to enjoy the material world.

That sounds a lot like Acosmic Path. However, I feel that the Acosmic Path should go beyond that. I need to do exercises that are on the existing paths before I break off. However, fleshing out various things such as demonalotry, wheel of desire, Scarlet Woman, heads of the dragon, etc, should bring my clarity to these paths.

Draconian is to exist as the eye in the abyss. The cold reptile that can create and uncreate reality. The goal of the Acosmic Path is to create and uncreate the self- not the false selves but our consciousness, right?
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Mindmaster on November 22, 2017, 03:00:12 pm
So update. If you give everything up to cross the abyss, you are only giving up false egos and selves. Your core conciousness will remain- I speculate this is the "true self/true will/ and possible even the HGA/Daemon or at least connected to it."

I've always found the acosmic stuff to be rather obtuse and sometimes I just can't vibe with its self-loathing / nihilistic destination. I still think every LHPer should research the subject, but I always question these sorts of things because they don't jive with my spiritual understandings.

For example, I'm aware of my connection to the divine and that of others directly. If it doesn't exist why do I have that perception? :D Then there is that whole misanthropic garbage that comes with it... Again, if I see other humans as kin albeit in a strange and mysterious way and am aware that "diety" is connected to me the same way why would I want it destroyed? I don't feel special in having these awarenesses, mind you, I think anyone of significant ability will eventually see the truth of it and have access to this as well. Satan for these guys, like LaVey Satanists, is merely a puppet they use to pitch their message. Satan to me is a creator, a force of intelligence, art, and aesthetics - the raw being of the energy of what makes humanity inspired. Does that sound like it jives at all with some idea that "gods must be destroyed"? From my perspective, that's some weird suicide spiritual deathwish... It's pretty nonsensical... In the end, the acosmic thing just seems like a bunch of edgelords who have no spiritual prowess whatsoever taking up time from any sucker stupid enough to hand them money.

I don't really buy into the HGA/true will tripe either... If it is useful, you'd already be aware of it. Your individuality is actually a divine mandate, a raison d'etre, a part of you through which like a mirror the divine can see itself and have unique experiences. Again, I don't speak of beliefs - I'm just talking of my experiences... Most of the people who say they've crossed the abyss or whatever exhibit the worst level of egotism I've ever seen... :D
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Setamorphosis on November 22, 2017, 03:08:09 pm
@King Mob (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=68) ,

Quote
The goal of the Acosmic Path is to create and uncreate the self- not the false selves but our conciousness, right?

Yep, and also (to me at least): to uncreate the universe, and create another, then uncreate that one, and create another. The Acosmic Satanist in the end becomes a conscious agent of Chaos who participates in the regulation of existence itself. A god, no less.

Of course, Acosmic Satanism is very individualistic. In the article that I have written for the Imperishable Star III, I've given out a mere skeleton, and left a lot to it to interpretation. I do not want any rigid dogma to be associated with Acosmic Satanism. If one wants to delve into demonolatry, then that is their choice. But by no means do I say "thou shalt work with demons." Hell, I've even mentioned TWO metaphysical entities one could work with.

@Mindmaster (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88) , clearly you have not been following the thread, and dare I say, you've also not read the original post. Your opinion is your own, at the end of the day. As I've said, this path isn't for everybody. No path is for everybody, in fact. There's always going to be someone out there who hates/dislikes/has a negative opinion of your path.

Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on November 22, 2017, 03:42:48 pm
@Mindmaster (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=88)

I see the true will trope as symbolism for something non-mystical. We change a lot through our lives. The true self is simply just concousness its self, the gift of Set, and our own unique conciouss that has the power to affect reality and is our true self of self, not the false selves that every magickal path, both LHP and RHP, promote letting go of.

Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: Cabshear on December 10, 2017, 01:17:58 am
An essential approach to the transcendence of Self beyond any perceived limitations, within the bounds of Satanism, could be possible. Certainly not seen as supernatural by any means. The Satanic Bible mentions that an Ego strong enough could possibly peer beyond the curtains of death, like a child eager to stay awake during a party, when something exciting happens. Now I don't want to take Dr. LaVey's words out of context here. A Satanist's "immortal" spirit lives on in the brains and sinews of the people they have gained respect. Consider the "immortality" of the de-facto Satanist Thomas Jefferson, who's statue stands proudly in D.C. and his noble decree that Church and State should be separate, lives on.

However, Satanism was never designed to be a religion seeking "riches in the next life" this was disregarded by Satanism. Satanism was to be the world's first and only purely carnal religion. While the pagans embraced the delights of the flesh they were not fully carnal and were steeped in all kinds of Mysticism. The best book for helping out your fellow Wiccan's on their "ancient" roots would be Razor for a Goat.

Essentially, we know nothing about what happens after death. I actually say this quite a bit in my discussions. When asked if I know what happens to me after I die I usually respond with: "I honestly have no clue what happens after I die. I don't assume anything does or doesn't happen." Maybe nothing. Maybe consciousness emerges from a continuum of CHAOS that, thru causes and conditions, re-manifest unrelated to prior lives.

I have been studying many forms of Egoism for quite sometime and the herd's individualism is easily controlled thru the idea that they need to "find themselves" rather than the Egoist/Satanic maxim that you Create yourSelf. I'll expand on this.

The herd "individual" doesn't know how to create, or forge, the self. They believe they need to find themselves. Which essentially is them picking from assorted pre-created identities formed from Social Consciousness and utilitarian values. Utilitarianism pushes the "do what feels right" for some. Slowly this "what's right for some" becomes the model of right for all, the lowest common denominator becomes the model truth and anyone that attempts to break away from that is silenced with false positivity. To continue the study on this idea see Brett Steven's book Nihilism.

IMO, to get away from this "find yourself" mold is to understand that YOU are not what you DO. This is essentially the incarcerating effects of the specter of moralism. Moralism asserts that YOU are a sinner because you sin. This limiting mindset is a big reason why many in the herd live in silent desperation for goals and dreams they will never achieve. They are wrapping up their identity in the things they do. They are their failures and mistakes, this will keep them from learning or gathering any wisdom from missing the mark.

------------------------------------

1. You are not what you do.

2. Every thing you now do, you at one point didn't know. You had to learn how to do it. So, if you had to learn how to DO something, that something doesn't make you who you are.

3. Society can easily assimilate people by associating people's actions with WHO they are. This has become a popular technique in leftist politics, identity politics.

4. You may screw up, this doesn't make you a screw up.

5. You can judge what you do, indeed judge what you do. Ask yourself if what you do is either effective or ineffective in achieving your goals. You can't judge who YOU are.

6. Thru this de-identification you learn that the Self is not the actions. Actions create results, the results for good or ill, can forge the Self.

7. The Satanist aspires to transcend Good and Evil.

The process of de-identifying the Self from the actions, can not only free the Satanist to actually forge the Self and not be left to pick from pre-packaged identities (unless the emulation of certain personalities can be used to their advantage) but it can have extending effects of self-autonomy.

Could the transcendence and expansion of the Unique One lead to a possibility of posthumous autonomy? Maybe? Is it the point of Satanism? I say no.
Title: Re: Need Opinions: Anti-Cosmic Approach to LHP
Post by: King Mob on December 10, 2017, 01:51:18 pm
@Setamorphosis (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=56) Sorry it's been a while, I've been busy with school and I had to step away from this paradigm briefly and focus on other ones. Oddly, going back to my roots has pointed me here.

Reading the Illustrate Goetia, Crowley indentifies god as the Borneless One which sounds a lot like chaos. Behemoth actually has a satanic version of this ritual as their lyrics in one song too which ties it more together for me.

Reading Peter J Carrol's later works have got me to considerably re-think the concept of chaos and how humanity and the niverse resembles it.

I'm gonna finally get around to reading your article in TIS III today(sorry, school and stuffs) and respond after I get where your current foundation is and process where mine is in relation.

Really look forward to developing this further  :mrgreen:

Also, I find something that is useful for me is following other traditions and stripping it down to the bare basics and pondering how it relates to chaos, and creation and destruction of universes. This thought will lead me down some interesting rabbit holes in the future.

Can't wait to see where this goes.