Forum => Lounge => Entertainment => Topic started by: Sutekh on August 22, 2020, 04:51:53 pm

Title: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on August 22, 2020, 04:51:53 pm
This is a 2 hour interview with a successful Satanist/businessman/musician and former vocalist of Vital Remains. This is pretty political, while I personally find politics including political ideologies to be a waste of time, their are some solid points that are pointed out and that can be personally agreed on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3XZYzp3nUU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3XZYzp3nUU)
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Onyx on August 22, 2020, 06:52:08 pm
Thanks @Sutekh (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9)  8)

Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Mindmaster on August 23, 2020, 12:51:01 pm
This is a 2 hour interview with a successful Satanist/businessman/musician and former vocalist of Vital Remains. This is pretty political, while I personally find politics including political ideologies to be a waste of time, their are some solid points that are pointed out and that can be personally agreed on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3XZYzp3nUU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3XZYzp3nUU)

Friend of mine, but yeah he's a great dude... in regard to all aspects...

If more people like him were walking around the world would be better place.

He's alright though despite all that and has a lot of other businesses. He's mostly working on MMA atm.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on August 23, 2020, 01:11:12 pm
Surprised antifa is as influential in Brazil and that they bother with protesting concerts. Considering the government and what I hear about things there in general, I would think they have more important battles to fight.

But considering that antifa is not one organization but just a banner under which people group, no surprise. And I encountered similarly thoughtless reactions here in Germany, with concerts being cancelled because antifa people considered anyone nazi who made medieval folk metal because of course only nazis can be interested in paganism or medieval literature.

Interesting view of the 7 tenets being in line with LaVeyan Satanism.

His complaints regarding certain actions of TST aren't something I find as convincing - I could see how the respective actions are done based on motivations quite in line with what he describes as Satanism. Yet he probably knows the people who were involved, or at least some of them, so he can judge their motives better than I may. Similarly, I would have some different political opinions (e.g. regarding 2nd amendment, and I'd also not be as convinced that starting one's own business is guarantee to success) but I can't really argue for or against some stuff of what he says as it's about US-specific issues and person-specific issues so he obviously knows more about it.

He also says a couple stuff that could be taken the wrong way. And I wouldn't agree that Satanism is only for "alphas", which might also be something I took the wrong way. But overall seems like quite a decent guy. I remember watching some other, shorter interview by him a few years back getting a different impression, so either he changed or that one didn't bring his point across well.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on August 24, 2020, 07:24:39 pm
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He's alright though despite all that and has a lot of other businesses. He's mostly working on MMA atm.

So Iv'e heard, I actually follow him on Instagram.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on August 25, 2020, 05:36:09 pm
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And I wouldn't agree that Satanism is only for "alphas", which might also be something I took the wrong way.

I personally believe strongly in Satanic elitism, I am not implying however on the kind of elitism where the Atheist is smarter and better than the Theist. But on the Elitism vs. the rest of the (herd) or non elect. I regard the elect you might say as the watch dogs of the herd, including society or the (Aeon, you might say). Being that Elect is not only being the Prince of Darkness's kind, but also by bettering yourself as that elect outside of the rest of the non elect.

I strongly agree that collectivism has no business with Satanism or the LHP, all you are primarily doing is being stuck on the right side of the Path. I laugh at the things I find on political ideologies being combined with Satanism, whether its on the far left or the far right, both of these politics have contradictions with the religion of darkness.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on August 26, 2020, 05:21:25 pm
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And I wouldn't agree that Satanism is only for "alphas", which might also be something I took the wrong way.
I personally believe strongly in Satanic elitism, I am not implying however on the kind of elitism where the Atheist is smarter and better than the Theist. But on the Elitism vs. the rest of the (herd) or non elect. I regard the elect you might say as the watch dogs of the herd, including society or the (Aeon, you might say). Being that Elect is not only being the Prince of Darkness's kind, but also by bettering yourself as that elect outside of the rest of the non elect.

Bettering yourself yes, that's certainly part of Satanism. And I agree, one doesn't have to start at an elite position in order to be a Satanist.

Regarding the watchdog metaphor, I don't think you need to be invested in herding other people in order to be a Satanist.

Also, you seem to equate Satanism with atheism?

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I strongly agree that collectivism has no business with Satanism or the LHP, all you are primarily doing is being stuck on the right side of the Path. I laugh at the things I find on political ideologies being combined with Satanism, whether its on the far left or the far right, both of these politics have contradictions with the religion of darkness.
Depends on what you call collectivism. When TST is criticized as being collectivist, it's usually for helping underprivileged parts of society, which can easily be completely in line with the personal values and goals of the TST-members supporting it. If someone helps because "that's what good people do" or out of peer-pressure, I'd agree calling that RHPy. If someone does so based on their personal values, that's a different thing.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on August 26, 2020, 08:51:57 pm
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Regarding the watchdog metaphor, I don't think you need to be invested in herding other people in order to be a Satanist.

Also, you seem to equate Satanism with atheism?

I wasn't necessarily implying "herding" other people to be exact. What I mean as a watchdog is one who is outside of the society within that physical Universe. One you might say that primarily sits on the throne and watches the events unfold and how the herd primarily clashes within those events in which the Satanist/LHPer laugh's at.

I also wasn't trying to equate Satanism with "Atheism." Apologies for the misunderstanding.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on August 27, 2020, 02:47:59 am
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Depends on what you call collectivism. When TST is criticized as being collectivist, it's usually for helping underprivileged parts of society, which can easily be completely in line with the personal values and goals of the TST-members supporting it. If someone helps because "that's what good people do" or out of peer-pressure, I'd agree calling that RHPy. If someone does so based on their personal values, that's a different thing.

I still may disagree with you on that, personally if an organization has a collectivist approach whether it be viewed as "personal values" in which its every members mission, that would still be in conforming with that line. I come from a LaVeyan/Setian School of thought, in which I have a traditional approach to the Left Hand Path. I have no interest in sharing the so called equality or being like everyone else/helping parts of society, since I personally find it illogical in my own personal goal within the Path of Darkness. You can argue that certain organizations that you might consider on the Left Hand Path to be collectivist and that this idea fits perfectly etc. But at the same time, if you look at Organizations including ours we do not hold the collectivist view. Since many of us are individualistic in our approaches.

If one has a group of same minded people with the same views/goals, you would be in the conformist bubble. And at the same time, if you have someone or an organization who says that they are going with the antinomianistic/heterodox approach and at the same time believes in equality for all, where is the logic in that?
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on August 27, 2020, 11:22:23 am
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Regarding the watchdog metaphor, I don't think you need to be invested in herding other people in order to be a Satanist.

Also, you seem to equate Satanism with atheism?

I wasn't necessarily implying "herding" other people to be exact. [...]

I also wasn't trying to equate Satanism with "Atheism." Apologies for the misunderstanding.
Yes, I wasn't sure whether you meant things that way, thanks for clarifying.
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What I mean as a watchdog is one who is outside of the society within that physical Universe. One you might say that primarily sits on the throne and watches the events unfold and how the herd primarily clashes within those events in which the Satanist/LHPer laugh's at.
Sure watching events unfold from outside can be fun, and just watching what will happen instead of fighting against it is more relaxing.
And while spending time outside of society is nice, there is much opportunity for personal growth found in interacting with society.

But could you give some examples? I think you mean something different.

I still may disagree with you on that, personally if an organization has a collectivist approach whether it be viewed as "personal values" in which its every members mission, that would still be in conforming with that line. I come from a LaVeyan/Setian School of thought, in which I have a traditional approach to the Left Hand Path. I have no interest in sharing the so called equality or being like everyone else/helping parts of society, since I personally find it illogical in my own personal goal within the Path of Darkness. You can argue that certain organizations that you might consider on the Left Hand Path to be collectivist and that this idea fits perfectly etc. But at the same time, if you look at Organizations including ours we do not hold the collectivist view. Since many of us are individualistic in our approaches.
Well I also don't have much investment in equality for all. I don't mind it, and usually I benefit from it, but it's nothing I would list as a value of mine. But many people feel quite strongly about it, or at least about supporting certain groups of people or fighting against certain forms of inequality. Now you can either say that this means they can't be Satanists or that it means that they need to overcome that part of their psyche to become proper Satanists. But if it's a central part of someone's psyche, then it would seem much more in line with Satanism to me to accept that and act in line with it.
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If one has a group of same minded people with the same views/goals, you would be in the conformist bubble.
If you want to put effort into a goal, being in an organization with other people with the same goal as your own seems very helpful. Just because people share one goal they don't necessarily share their whole worldview, so there is still room for discussions between different perspectives. Also, one needn't be in only one group.

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And at the same time, if you have someone or an organization who says that they are going with the antinomianistic/heterodox approach and at the same time believes in equality for all, where is the logic in that?
Improvements regarding equality for all may enable people to pursue an antinomianistic/heterodox approach in the first place. So some people might feel grateful for having that opportunity and may want to make sure other people have it as well.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on August 29, 2020, 05:35:12 pm
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And while spending time outside of society is nice, there is much opportunity for personal growth found in interacting with society.

But could you give some examples? I think you mean something different.

I believe that once you are journeying within the Path of Darkness you already know that you are outside of the cosmic flow in this Objective bubble permanently. As strong a word "permanently" is, once you Journey within the Left Hand Path you start to of course come to two conclusions, 1) The Path is for you 2) The Path is not for you. The way I see it, is that once you realize that the Path of Darkness is for you. You notice that you are unique in a sense, "what separates you from the rest." And you will remain as that separate part from the rest, for all eternity. As extreme this sounds, I regard this as the reality once you step on that Darker Plane outside of this existence.

I hope this can clarify a bit from what you are looking for.

Quote
Well I also don't have much investment in equality for all. I don't mind it, and usually I benefit from it, but it's nothing I would list as a value of mine. But many people feel quite strongly about it, or at least about supporting certain groups of people or fighting against certain forms of inequality. Now you can either say that this means they can't be Satanists or that it means that they need to overcome that part of their psyche to become proper Satanists. But if it's a central part of someone's psyche, then it would seem much more in line with Satanism to me to accept that and act in line with it.

If you want to put effort into a goal, being in an organization with other people with the same goal as your own seems very helpful. Just because people share one goal they don't necessarily share their whole worldview, so there is still room for discussions between different perspectives. Also, one needn't be in only one group.


Improvements regarding equality for all may enable people to pursue an antinomianistic/heterodox approach in the first place. So some people might feel grateful for having that opportunity and may want to make sure other people have it as well.


On organizations, what I was trying to get (this might sound as a repetition) at is if you have a group of people with a collectivist viewpoint, an organization would become conformist in that regard. The Church of Satan is a perfect example, you have people that would share the same collective philosophical viewpoint/goal and transform it into a conformist bubble which goes against LHP philosophy. The Order of the Serpent and the Temple of Set are perfect examples of an organization that does not adhere to the full on 100% same goals that other organizations have or have become.  Meaning what this Order including the TOS is doing, is placing the forbidden apple in practice, of what this forbidden apple means. (my own metaphor of the LHP)  Yes, we may share a 1 common goal as Magicians and philosophers, but at the same time we have our different approaches of how we view and do things. That is another perfect example of what an LHP organization composes of.

My take, going back on your other answer of the "benefits in interacting with society" including your other responses on the benefits of "equality for all," may differ. The way I view it, as a person who is on the Left Hand Path I only have one goal, and that is the concept of "Self Directed Self Evolution." Meaning my only focus is on the Self, not on the empathy for the herd or making sure the herd has the same "opportunities as I do." This may mean on going to the extremes in order to evolve that self, which is in my opinion the basis of the LHP, to focus and care only on that self in order to further your own personal will, not the will of others.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on August 29, 2020, 06:27:24 pm
[
Quote
And while spending time outside of society is nice, there is much opportunity for personal growth found in interacting with society.

But could you give some examples? I think you mean something different.

I believe that once you are journeying within the Path of Darkness you already know that you are outside of the cosmic flow in this Objective bubble permanently. As strong a word "permanently" is, once you Journey within the Left Hand Path you start to of course come to two conclusions, 1) The Path is for you 2) The Path is not for you. The way I see it, is that once you realize that the Path of Darkness is for you. You notice that you are unique in a sense, "what separates you from the rest." And you will remain as that separate part from the rest, for all eternity. As extreme this sounds, I regard this as the reality once you step on that Darker Plane outside of this existence.

I hope this can clarify a bit from what you are looking for.
Hm, not really, I was rather looking for a more concrete explanation than a metaphysical one.
Also, I'm a pantheist, so I obviously have some different opinions from yours regarding separateness from the cosmos.
Or do you really mean just societal? If anything I've moved closer to society since converting (by getting to know people and making friends) than away from it, as this path has been helping me with social anxiety. My impression of my uniqueness has also rather decreased than increased.
I mean, I'm still ultimately only heeding to myself, but that was already the case long before I ever heard of Satanism.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on August 30, 2020, 08:30:27 pm
[
Quote
And while spending time outside of society is nice, there is much opportunity for personal growth found in interacting with society.

But could you give some examples? I think you mean something different.

I believe that once you are journeying within the Path of Darkness you already know that you are outside of the cosmic flow in this Objective bubble permanently. As strong a word "permanently" is, once you Journey within the Left Hand Path you start to of course come to two conclusions, 1) The Path is for you 2) The Path is not for you. The way I see it, is that once you realize that the Path of Darkness is for you. You notice that you are unique in a sense, "what separates you from the rest." And you will remain as that separate part from the rest, for all eternity. As extreme this sounds, I regard this as the reality once you step on that Darker Plane outside of this existence.

I hope this can clarify a bit from what you are looking for.
Hm, not really, I was rather looking for a more concrete explanation than a metaphysical one.
Also, I'm a pantheist, so I obviously have some different opinions from yours regarding separateness from the cosmos.
Or do you really mean just societal? If anything I've moved closer to society since converting (by getting to know people and making friends) than away from it, as this path has been helping me with social anxiety. My impression of my uniqueness has also rather decreased than increased.
I mean, I'm still ultimately only heeding to myself, but that was already the case long before I ever heard of Satanism.
Perhaps this explanation is closer to what you are looking for . . .
The objective universe is simply a self-perpetuating mechanism. The majority of religions and faiths believe they are tapping into some kind of Universal Mind, yet they are simply aligning their conscious awareness with a mechanism which in truth is of non-mind and is not cognizant sentience. They flood their brains with happy waves of theta and are thus deceived into the feeling of being connected to something greater than their local mind. The Work of the Mystai (western left hand path) is not directed towards this, this is not our path. Our path is that of developing our proto-conscious field and connecting with our nonlocal mind (Self). By doing so we create a bridge from this reality to our Greater Self's reality and thus we are changed from human to something more than human.
__________________________________
- from the Texts of H☿D
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on August 31, 2020, 12:38:04 am
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I believe that once you are journeying within the Path of Darkness you already know that you are outside of the cosmic flow in this Objective bubble permanently. As strong a word "permanently" is, once you Journey within the Left Hand Path you start to of course come to two conclusions, 1) The Path is for you 2) The Path is not for you. The way I see it, is that once you realize that the Path of Darkness is for you. You notice that you are unique in a sense, "what separates you from the rest." And you will remain as that separate part from the rest, for all eternity. As extreme this sounds, I regard this as the reality once you step on that Darker Plane outside of this existence. I hope this can clarify a bit from what you are looking for.

Quote
Hm, not really, I was rather looking for a more concrete explanation than a metaphysical one.
Also, I'm a pantheist, so I obviously have some different opinions from yours regarding separateness from the cosmos.
Or do you really mean just societal? If anything I've moved closer to society since converting (by getting to know people and making friends) than away from it, as this path has been helping me with social anxiety. My impression of my uniqueness has also rather decreased than increased.
I mean, I'm still ultimately only heeding to myself, but that was already the case long before I ever heard of Satanism.

The way I see it is both ways, stepping onto the Path of Darkness would be that realization of the distinction from you and the societal herd. In which I believe in expanding that separateness/isolation in order to achieve the means on the Path (non metaphysically speaking). You and I both agree that Satanism is about bettering yourself as that individual or Elect. That is how I personally view it, isolating yourself from the mainstream society of the masses is that step of bettering yourself. The reason why I frown upon the collectivist or egalitarian nature of things is 1) I find it non achievable to my own personal individuality/individual quest on my Path. You can of course argue that some people find egalitarianism/collectivism to be a betterment upon themselves, nothing wrong with that, everyone's different to that extent. As a Black Magician, yes I do strongly believe in metaphysics and Magic. It might seem as if my life revolves around it, but not necessarily. My own personal goal is achieving my own means Magically/Non Magically, I am practical on my approach as a Magician. On my previous statement in which you were expecting a concrete answer, it may had seem complex of what my statement was implying. I was speaking both non metaphysically and metaphysically on that separation from the cosmos.

Yes I still personally find certain interactions with people in a society to be interesting and fun to that regard, but at the same time I'll always know that I am superior than the rest. As arrogantly as this may sound, that is a part of my elitist view as the one who is superior than the rest, I am not implying of course the dumb argument that the "Satanist is better than the other Satanist" nonsense. I regard those who are on the same path as I am, as a fellow Elect. (If you have trouble understanding, since English is probably your secondary language. I can try my best to clarify those misunderstandings)




Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on August 31, 2020, 08:00:59 am
Thanks for the replies!
Perhaps this explanation is closer to what you are looking for . . .
The objective universe is simply a self-perpetuating mechanism. The majority of religions and faiths believe they are tapping into some kind of Universal Mind, yet they are simply aligning their conscious awareness with a mechanism which in truth is of non-mind and is not cognizant sentience. They flood their brains with happy waves of theta and are thus deceived into the feeling of being connected to something greater than their local mind. The Work of the Mystai (western left hand path) is not directed towards this, this is not our path. Our path is that of developing our proto-conscious field and connecting with our nonlocal mind (Self). By doing so we create a bridge from this reality to our Greater Self's reality and thus we are changed from human to something more than human.
__________________________________
- from the Texts of H☿D
My beliefs are somewhere between what you describe as the practice of the majority of religions and what you describe as western left hand path:
I consider the self a part of that mechanism that also the objective universe is part of.
What would be the reason to distinguish between a local and a nonlocal mind?

The way I see it is both ways, stepping onto the Path of Darkness would be that realization of the distinction from you and the societal herd. In which I believe in expanding that separateness/isolation in order to achieve the means on the Path (non metaphysically speaking). You and I both agree that Satanism is about bettering yourself as that individual or Elect. That is how I personally view it, isolating yourself from the mainstream society of the masses is that step of bettering yourself. [...] As a Black Magician, yes I do strongly believe in metaphysics and Magic. It might seem as if my life revolves around it, but not necessarily. My own personal goal is achieving my own means Magically/Non Magically, I am practical on my approach as a Magician. On my previous statement in which you were expecting a concrete answer, it may had seem complex of what my statement was implying. I was speaking both non metaphysically and metaphysically on that separation from the cosmos.

Yes I still personally find certain interactions with people in a society to be interesting and fun to that regard, but at the same time I'll always know that I am superior than the rest. As arrogantly as this may sound, that is a part of my elitist view as the one who is superior than the rest, I am not implying of course the dumb argument that the "Satanist is better than the other Satanist" nonsense. I regard those who are on the same path as I am, as a fellow Elect.
Well no, I already felt separate from society much earlier, converting didn't make a difference really.

And I don't have the impression of being superior to the rest overall, many people have skills of daily life that I'm still developing. How would you distinguish between someone who is on the path from someone who isn't?

Also, society isn't one coherent group of people anyway - my academic colleagues are different from my relatives (which also vary a lot), which are different from my teachers of yoga, qi gong and the like, which are different from my neighbors... and based on what I see in the news, there are parts of society that I have no connections to whatsoever.

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(If you have trouble understanding, since English is probably your secondary language. I can try my best to clarify those misunderstandings)
Not sure whether that plays a role - yes English isn't my native language but I use it more often than my native language nowadays, especially at work. But thanks for your willingness to help.

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The reason why I frown upon the collectivist or egalitarian nature of things is 1) I find it non achievable to my own personal individuality/individual quest on my Path. You can of course argue that some people find egalitarianism/collectivism to be a betterment upon themselves, nothing wrong with that, everyone's different to that extent.
Yes, that was basically my point. Whenever I hear an explanation by TSTers of how their socialist approach fits in with Satanism, it's basically this one.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on August 31, 2020, 03:20:06 pm
Thanks for the replies!
Perhaps this explanation is closer to what you are looking for . . .
The objective universe is simply a self-perpetuating mechanism. The majority of religions and faiths believe they are tapping into some kind of Universal Mind, yet they are simply aligning their conscious awareness with a mechanism which in truth is of non-mind and is not cognizant sentience. They flood their brains with happy waves of theta and are thus deceived into the feeling of being connected to something greater than their local mind. The Work of the Mystai (western left hand path) is not directed towards this, this is not our path. Our path is that of developing our proto-conscious field and connecting with our nonlocal mind (Self). By doing so we create a bridge from this reality to our Greater Self's reality and thus we are changed from human to something more than human.
__________________________________
- from the Texts of H☿D
My beliefs are somewhere between what you describe as the practice of the majority of religions and what you describe as western left hand path:
I consider the self a part of that mechanism that also the objective universe is part of.
What would be the reason to distinguish between a local and a non-local mind?
From my experience, one is either on the Right or the Left Hand Path, it is illogical to be on both at once. When I use the word 'self' (small 's') I am referring to the local mind self, our conscious mind in the objective universe. When I use a capital 'S' I refer to our nonlocal mind, the one which is that of our Greater Self and which is not part of the objective universe.

This non-local mind (Self) and our ability to become consciously aware of it, is integral to the Western Left Hand Path. Many refer to it as apotheosis or autotheism, I understand it as something similar to, but different in many ways regarding those two definitions.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on August 31, 2020, 05:11:48 pm
From my experience, one is either on the Right or the Left Hand Path, it is illogical to be on both at once.
From my experience, you can ask 10 people who identify as LHPer or RHPer for a definition of either and get 10 different replies.

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When I use the word 'self' (small 's') I am referring to the local mind self, our conscious mind in the objective universe. When I use a capital 'S' I refer to our nonlocal mind, the one which is that of our Greater Self and which is not part of the objective universe.

This non-local mind (Self) and our ability to become consciously aware of it, is integral to the Western Left Hand Path. Many refer to it as apotheosis or autotheism, I understand it as something similar to, but different in many ways regarding those two definitions.
The local mind would be those aspects of the mind dependent on (or interdependent with) physical things (i.e. brain states or the body in general) whereas the nonlocal mind would exist independent from that?

I haven't seen reason to assume the existence of a nonlocal mind of that definition, except for the fact that subjective awareness seems like something ontologically distinct from the world of matter. Yet that would be merely awareness in and of itself - all the content of awareness seems to be caused by the interaction between awareness-per-se and matter. Sentience doesn't exist in either sphere alone, just in the combination of both. At least that's what makes most sense to me based on introspection.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 01, 2020, 01:36:25 am
From my experience, one is either on the Right or the Left Hand Path, it is illogical to be on both at once.

I haven't seen reason to assume the existence of a nonlocal mind of that definition, except for the fact that subjective awareness seems like something ontologically distinct from the world of matter. Yet that would be merely awareness in and of itself - all the content of awareness seems to be caused by the interaction between awareness-per-se and matter. Sentience doesn't exist in either sphere alone, just in the combination of both. At least that's what makes most sense to me based on introspection.

Proto-man was just one of many animal species fighting for survival over the millennia. If his brain could evolve through processes of natural selection, then why did the brains of other creatures not similarly evolve - at least a little? The fact is that the brains of other creatures have remained practically the same size while man’s has “evolved”. By the law of averages - which applies to natural selection as much as to anything else - there should have been at least some species other than man evolving in intelligence at least partway to the human level. There is none.

So what has taken place?

We are left with the explanation: Deliberate Cause
And this implies an Isolate Intelligence working through our physical being (brain/body)

Human intelligence is a violation of Objective Universal Law. That evidence for the existence of an intelligent entity distinct from the objective universe has instilled in humanity the potential to enjoy the same external perspective, as well as the intelligence to do so with a deliberate, creative purpose.

This Higher Self / GodSelf does not behave as though it were merely a “sum total” of the brain’s sensory and manipulative capacities, combining and recombining inputted information as though it were an “organic” electronic computer. It has a sense of identity, a sense of uniqueness, a sense of distance, and differentiation from everything else that exists.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 01, 2020, 05:16:32 am
Proto-man was just one of many animal species fighting for survival over the millennia. If his brain could evolve through processes of natural selection, then why did the brains of other creatures not similarly evolve - at least a little? The fact is that the brains of other creatures have remained practically the same size while man’s has “evolved”. By the law of averages - which applies to natural selection as much as to anything else - there should have been at least some species other than man evolving in intelligence at least partway to the human level. There is none.

So what has taken place?

We are left with the explanation: Deliberate Cause
And this implies an Isolate Intelligence working through our physical being (brain/body)

Human intelligence is a violation of Objective Universal Law. That evidence for the existence of an intelligent entity distinct from the objective universe has instilled in humanity the potential to enjoy the same external perspective, as well as the intelligence to do so with a deliberate, creative purpose.
There's enough other species who have evolved to a certain degree of self-awareness - if that degree is possible with just the objective universe, why need another ingredient for humans?

The distance to other species could be simply explained by e.g. ratchet effects - once a certain change has occurred, there's no easy going back and other changes build on it.

Also, even if we were the only species with any form of intelligence - there are also explanations for that. E.g. it could simply be extremely unlikely for a species to be in the right circumstances for evolutionary pressure to push into this direction.

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This Higher Self / GodSelf does not behave as though it were merely a “sum total” of the brain’s sensory and manipulative capacities, combining and recombining inputted information as though it were an “organic” electronic computer. It has a sense of identity, a sense of uniqueness, a sense of distance, and differentiation from everything else that exists.
Why would those things not be caused by the brain?

Even if your beliefs would turn out to be right: As I said on previous occasions, I don't think it's a good idea to make the definition of the LHP dependent on specific metaphysical beliefs that we have no way of proving. Otherwise you make the LHP dependent on believing in a dogma, which doesn't seem very LHPy to me at all.

I don't mind you having these beliefs or even if you make them a requirement for joining a spiritual group of yours. But I don't see why believing them would be a necessity for being on the LHP (or rather, for being a satanist, as was what Suthek and me were discussing).
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 02, 2020, 01:15:49 am
Proto-man was just one of many animal species fighting for survival over the millennia. If his brain could evolve through processes of natural selection, then why did the brains of other creatures not similarly evolve - at least a little? The fact is that the brains of other creatures have remained practically the same size while man’s has “evolved”. By the law of averages - which applies to natural selection as much as to anything else - there should have been at least some species other than man evolving in intelligence at least partway to the human level. There is none.

So what has taken place?

We are left with the explanation: Deliberate Cause
And this implies an Isolate Intelligence working through our physical being (brain/body)

Human intelligence is a violation of Objective Universal Law. That evidence for the existence of an intelligent entity distinct from the objective universe has instilled in humanity the potential to enjoy the same external perspective, as well as the intelligence to do so with a deliberate, creative purpose.
There's enough other species who have evolved to a certain degree of self-awareness - if that degree is possible with just the objective universe, why need another ingredient for humans?

The distance to other species could be simply explained by e.g. ratchet effects - once a certain change has occurred, there's no easy going back and other changes build on it.

Also, even if we were the only species with any form of intelligence - there are also explanations for that. E.g. it could simply be extremely unlikely for a species to be in the right circumstances for evolutionary pressure to push into this direction.

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This Higher Self / GodSelf does not behave as though it were merely a “sum total” of the brain’s sensory and manipulative capacities, combining and recombining inputted information as though it were an “organic” electronic computer. It has a sense of identity, a sense of uniqueness, a sense of distance, and differentiation from everything else that exists.
Why would those things not be caused by the brain?

Even if your beliefs would turn out to be right: As I said on previous occasions, I don't think it's a good idea to make the definition of the LHP dependent on specific metaphysical beliefs that we have no way of proving. Otherwise you make the LHP dependent on believing in a dogma, which doesn't seem very LHPy to me at all.

I don't mind you having these beliefs or even if you make them a requirement for joining a spiritual group of yours. But I don't see why believing them would be a necessity for being on the LHP (or rather, for being a satanist, as was what Suthek and me were discussing).
We're not talking about animals being 'somewhat' self-aware though, are we? Conscious Awareness is something quite different I would think. I suppose it possible that the brain is deluding us into a sense of 'otherness', it can and often does produce a sense of agency, yet that is again something quite different.

Unfortunately, the definition of the (western) left hand path has suffered from controversy, everyone making it what they hope it to be, and utter confusion. I don't see where I introduced dogma into the play, my intention was to address it from a philosophical and neurotheological stance.

Your indirect snub was not called for however, there are no requirements to believe what I believe in order to work within the Herald of the Dawn. I was simply offering further thought to your inquiry . . . by all means, continue your discussion with Suthek about being a satanist.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 02, 2020, 06:33:26 am
Huh? I didn't mean that as an offense against you or your order. I'm actually surprised that it wouldn't be a (not official but de facto) requirement to have beliefs similar to that as it seems such a fundamental part of your order-related writings, but as I said, even if it were the case I wouldn't really mind. Sorry I got the wrong impression, though, except for your postings on this forum I don't really know much about your order so I should have looked into it more before assuming that to be the case.

Well regarding humans differing ontologically from other animals I guess we best agree to disagree. I don't consider it impossible, I just don't think we have clear enough evidence to base our metaphysics on that alone.

The LHP is a social construct, so there is no true definition of it, only what people make of it. What seems dogmatic to me is that you say that these other forms of approaching the LHP are invalid and that you base that on metaphysical beliefs - fairly reasonable ones, admittedly, even if I don't find them convincing, but still beliefs that can't be proven.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on September 04, 2020, 05:32:52 pm
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How would you distinguish between someone who is on the path from someone who isn't?

1) Critical and Independent Thinking

2) Being non collective/non conformist

3) One who does not seek any union/dissolving the self or (ego) to god or to the Universe, but instead cherishes that ego and remains separate from the laws of the Objective Universe.

4) Xepering/Remanifesting/Creating action or power and manifesting it as a will/Bettering yourself/Becoming as the Übermensch (or godhood)

That is my definition of the Left Hand Path


Someone who is not on the Left Hand Path- 1) One, who is and thinks as the herd thinks 2) One who does not have any ambition or drive to become that Übermensch  3) One who does not have the Critical/Independent thinking, but instead chooses to be a follower who is docile. 4) One who chooses the easiest way out of life, instead of looking at the grim site of what life truly is. 5) One who chooses to seek a Union with god by dissolving the self and the ego (meaning by conventional religious means).

(By the way my saying of the Übermensch is taken from Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra)

These are my basic definitions, I am sure the rest you can figure out on your own.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 04, 2020, 06:44:44 pm
Thanks!

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How would you distinguish between someone who is on the path from someone who isn't?

1) Critical and Independent Thinking

2) Being non collective/non conformist

3) One who does not seek any union/dissolving the self or (ego) to god or to the Universe, but instead cherishes that ego and remains separate from the laws of the Objective Universe.

4) Xepering/Remanifesting/Creating action or power and manifesting it as a will/Bettering yourself/Becoming as the Übermensch (or godhood)

That is my definition of the Left Hand Path
Pretty sure that's common also among non-occultists.

Most people I usually have to do much with in real life are 1) academics, who are 3) atheists and 4) lifelong learners - whether they are also 2) non-conformist is a bit harder to tell, but considering that they chose a profession that is based on their personal interests and where the point is progress would point to that.
And I would assume that hardly any of them has ever even heard of the LHP.

So all in all that doesn't seem too unusual to me. It's all a matter of degree, though, how high you put the bar in regards to fulfilling these criteria.

Myself, I would argue to fulfill criteria 1), 2) and 4), or at least aiming to, and 3) resolves to not applicable when I try to apply it to my metaphysics. (one is already a part of "god" anyway).

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Someone who is not on the Left Hand Path- 1) One, who is and thinks as the herd thinks
What does the herd think, though? Which people are the herd? Pretty much anyone I know fulfills at least half of the criteria based on my estimation.

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5) One who chooses to seek a Union with god by dissolving the self and the ego (meaning by conventional religious means).
I don't know many Christians but none of them seemed to have that as their religious goal.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 05, 2020, 02:13:16 pm
This is the fundamental flaw with the (western) left hand path people, the lack of a definitive outline as to what IS the (western) left hand path. The 'label' has become whatever you 'need' it to be and doesn't stand on its own, which is antithetical to the actual (western) LHP philosophy.

This is the definition of the Western Left Hand Path as the Herald of the Dawn defines it and to me represents the Path in its clearest, truest, and nonlinear form.

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The Western Left Hand Path is the conscious effort to realize and embrace one's Greater Self and to bring this Self into one's mundane self as often as possible thus coming to know one's true Self while incarnate.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 05, 2020, 03:18:05 pm
This is the fundamental flaw with the (western) left hand path people, the lack of a definitive outline as to what IS the (western) left hand path. The 'label' has become whatever you 'need' it to be and doesn't stand on its own, which is antithetical to the actual (western) LHP philosophy.

To me, that's not a flaw but entirely in line with (western) LHP philosophy - it's about finding an approach to spiritual development that works for oneself as an individual, so clearly many people will have different forms of it based on their needs.

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This is the definition of the Western Left Hand Path as the Herald of the Dawn defines it and to me represents the Path in its clearest, truest, and nonlinear form.

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The Western Left Hand Path is the conscious effort to realize and embrace one's Greater Self and to bring this Self into one's mundane self as often as possible thus coming to know one's true Self while incarnate.
Hm, if we for a moment ignore our metaphysical differences, I could rephrase that as:
"The Western Left Hand Path is the conscious effort to realize and embrace Oneself and to bring this Self into one's mundane self as often as possible thus coming to know one's true Self while incarnate."
I.e., no matter whether that Greater Self is something distinct from an objective universe that one's mundane self would be part of, or whether it's simply the core of one's personality, that shouldn't affect the techniques or even the goal in practical terms as it's still about the same kind of self-actualization, isn't it?
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 06, 2020, 04:02:31 am
This is the fundamental flaw with the (western) left hand path people, the lack of a definitive outline as to what IS the (western) left hand path. The 'label' has become whatever you 'need' it to be and doesn't stand on its own, which is antithetical to the actual (western) LHP philosophy.

To me, that's not a flaw but entirely in line with (western) LHP philosophy - it's about finding an approach to spiritual development that works for oneself as an individual, so clearly many people will have different forms of it based on their needs.

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This is the definition of the Western Left Hand Path as the Herald of the Dawn defines it and to me represents the Path in its clearest, truest, and nonlinear form.

Quote
The Western Left Hand Path is the conscious effort to realize and embrace one's Greater Self and to bring this Self into one's mundane self as often as possible thus coming to know one's true Self while incarnate.
Hm, if we for a moment ignore our metaphysical differences, I could rephrase that as:
"The Western Left Hand Path is the conscious effort to realize and embrace Oneself and to bring this Self into one's mundane self as often as possible thus coming to know one's true Self while incarnate."
I.e., no matter whether that Greater Self is something distinct from an objective universe that one's mundane self would be part of, or whether it's simply the core of one's personality, that shouldn't affect the techniques or even the goal in practical terms as it's still about the same kind of self-actualization, isn't it?
As long as you are embracing the True you, the 'more than human' you, I suppose it works. There is no religiosity attached where one needs to believe in anything external to one's being.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 06, 2020, 07:28:26 am
As long as you are embracing the True you, the 'more than human' you, I suppose it works. There is no religiosity attached where one needs to believe in anything external to one's being.
"more than human" is again such a vague term. If something is possible for a human, why would it be more than human.

But otherwise I think we do mean similar things if not even the same thing in practice.

Btw, regarding practices - I took a look at some of the articles on the blog of the Herald of the Dawn, especially those that sounded like they might elaborate on techniques used within the order, but it seemed all very vague and more focused on mythology and some speculations on psychology. So it's difficult to derive from that what spiritual work within your order looks like. So that makes it difficult to get a proper impression of what it is about.
I would guess that it's at least in part intentional that you only want to share your practices within your order?
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 06, 2020, 02:44:44 pm
As long as you are embracing the True you, the 'more than human' you, I suppose it works. There is no religiosity attached where one needs to believe in anything external to one's being.
"more than human" is again such a vague term. If something is possible for a human, why would it be more than human.

But otherwise I think we do mean similar things if not even the same thing in practice.

Btw, regarding practices - I took a look at some of the articles on the blog of the Herald of the Dawn, especially those that sounded like they might elaborate on techniques used within the order, but it seemed all very vague and more focused on mythology and some speculations on psychology. So it's difficult to derive from that what spiritual work within your order looks like. So that makes it difficult to get a proper impression of what it is about.
I would guess that it's at least in part intentional that you only want to share your practices within your order?
The actual work and philosophy is contained within the Order, outside of a few articles and things floating around, H☿D is primarily an Occult Order in its truest meaning.

The phrase 'more than human' isn't that difficult to understand. One becomes More Than Human when the human aspect of our existence is transcended. In other words, as we become more like our Greater Self, we become less like our mundane self, thus more than human.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 06, 2020, 03:52:08 pm
The actual work and philosophy is contained within the Order, outside of a few articles and things floating around, H☿D is primarily an Occult Order in its truest meaning.
Fair enough - if you're not interested in people outside your order getting a proper idea of it, or if you see more value in keeping stuff secret, then that's fine.
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The phrase 'more than human' isn't that difficult to understand. One becomes More Than Human when the human aspect of our existence is transcended. In other words, as we become more like our Greater Self, we become less like our mundane self, thus more than human.
Every human got a Greater Self, I suppose? So that's part of being human. Why would coming closer to one's true self mean becoming less of a human if that true self is an inherent part of being a human in the first place?
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 06, 2020, 05:45:31 pm
The actual work and philosophy is contained within the Order, outside of a few articles and things floating around, H☿D is primarily an Occult Order in its truest meaning.
Fair enough - if you're not interested in people outside your order getting a proper idea of it, or if you see more value in keeping stuff secret, then that's fine.
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The phrase 'more than human' isn't that difficult to understand. One becomes More Than Human when the human aspect of our existence is transcended. In other words, as we become more like our Greater Self, we become less like our mundane self, thus more than human.
Every human got a Greater Self, I suppose? So that's part of being human. Why would coming closer to one's true self mean becoming less of a human if that true self is an inherent part of being a human in the first place?
Well, first the phrase is 'More Than Human' not less than human. Think about the meaning when people say "I'm only human", it refers to our reptilian brain and our sub-human aspects. Even though there is a Greater Self attached to all of us, very few of us aspire to find it and fewer to embrace it. For me, that is the essence of the Western Left Hand Path and nothing more or less.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 06, 2020, 05:56:23 pm
Well, first the phrase is 'More Than Human' not less than human.
"Less of", not "less than" is what I was saying. "not completely human anymore".

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Think about the meaning when people say "I'm only human", it refers to our reptilian brain and our sub-human aspects.
Hm nah, I wouldn't necessarily consider that referring to that in particular. It can, but it can as easily also refer to our particularly human characteristics.

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Even though there is a Greater Self attached to all of us, very few of us aspire to find it and fewer to embrace it. For me, that is the essence of the Western Left Hand Path and nothing more or less.
Could you give an example of what aspiring to one's Greater Self would look like, to make sure we're on the same page?
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Mindmaster on September 06, 2020, 08:11:23 pm
He also says a couple stuff that could be taken the wrong way. And I wouldn't agree that Satanism is only for "alphas", which might also be something I took the wrong way. But overall seems like quite a decent guy. I remember watching some other, shorter interview by him a few years back getting a different impression, so either he changed or that one didn't bring his point across well.

Fundamentally, it sort of is. But, I say that with a caveat that if we look at the core of Satanic philosophy (say Nietzsche, Rand, Redbeard, etc.) it's more of the alpha that comes with the methodology of being true to one's fundamental nature and making no excuses. It's not the alpha associated with being a 'Chad' and so on. In that comment, I'm not trying to repackage it to be more acceptable just elucidating it a bit in the vein of pointing out the forest for the trees.

Re: His viewpoints, admittedly there is a bit of flux here and there in the last few years, but that happens to us all. It depends on what you will admit to yourself or whatever on that subject, but nothing prevents the change. We can choose to ignore it, but it still happens. It's not different in his case -- all ideas get expanded upon, resized, and adapted to one's own needs.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Mindmaster on September 06, 2020, 08:28:50 pm
This is the fundamental flaw with the (western) left hand path people, the lack of a definitive outline as to what IS the (western) left hand path. The 'label' has become whatever you 'need' it to be and doesn't stand on its own, which is antithetical to the actual (western) LHP philosophy.


This is the very definition of the left hand path, AKA, it's what _you_ fundamentally need, but not what anyone else needs. I have no idea what the 'actual' philosophy would be a reference to, but according to my understanding we have a few ideas on LHP that we can compare and contrast.

We could pick a spiritual frame of reference and simply limit the concept to that which is 'orthodox' is 'white/right' and what is heterodox is 'black/left'. (Generally, I feel that is too simple, personally.) The distinction here is on the practices and not the individuals partaking in them. This is generally the most accepted set of definitions.

To contrast, we could take another approach and go to motive and action. The right being benevolent in nature, order-affirming, and mindful of the needs of others. In this definition, we could say the left is sinister, malicious, selfish, and the individual thinks only of themselves. Essentially, using this criteria establishes that acts not the beliefs and practices determine the 'path' one travels. Modern occultists love this one because they get to play with 'magick' and still keep most of the belief system from the first case.

But, another definition, the one I'd prefer, is based on the ideas of Peter Carroll is in reference to the end goal of either methodology being fundamentally the same. That's to say that the right is trying to achieve godliness (spiritual progress) through purity and obedience, where the left hand path is attempting to free oneself of the delusions which obscure the goal. The ultimate destination, illumination, is the goal in both cases. Not too many people hold this view -- I'm the only one I know personally.

The reason for the apparent debate here is that people haphazardly attempt to combine these ideas without any discrimination or realization of the fact that they haven't much to do with one another. This is what causes the perceived 'muddle' of the definition of the left-hand path, but there is actually no muddle just three completely different schools of thought supporting various arguments. Thus, if Lon Milo Duquette or ONA talk about the LHP they both speak in the context of the #2 case, but for very different reasons... Lon will speak of the fact that it's intent that matters and his actions are for good intents, and ONA speaks in terms of their 'sinister action' is what makes them left, etc. It's readily apparent how this can be an extremely confusing subject, lol.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on September 07, 2020, 12:21:38 am
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What does the herd think, though? Which people are the herd? Pretty much anyone I know fulfills at least half of the criteria based on my estimation.

If you look at the masses, they all adhere to the mainstream culture (atleast I refer to it as mainstream westernized culture where I live). You come from an entirely different country as do I, where I live (refering to the United States) their is a tremendous herd mentality, be it Political action, or the Nazerene Religion. The human population the way I personally view it, all think alike to that extent. Be it through the sides of Politics, Western Religion, and through the mundane, they lack to the independent critical thinking and choose to be stuck in the docile mut. The very essence of the Left Hand Path for me is to ground yourself out of that docile mut which in my personal opinion is the key component to slowly reaching as the Übermensch.

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Pretty sure that's common also among non-occultists.

Most people I usually have to do much with in real life are 1) academics, who are 3) atheists and 4) lifelong learners - whether they are also 2) non-conformist is a bit harder to tell, but considering that they chose a profession that is based on their personal interests and where the point is progress would point to that.
And I would assume that hardly any of them has ever even heard of the LHP.

So all in all that doesn't seem too unusual to me. It's all a matter of degree, though, how high you put the bar in regards to fulfilling these criteria.

Yes, I agree with you here. As you may have seen my other commentary on achieving those goals "Non-Magically," this is the very essence of the Left Hand Path. Achieving your own Great Work by reaching to that final Level both in this existence and in the Astral Plane. These people who you refer to, are the people that you might say are in similar to the Elect, or do not realize the gift that is bestowed upon them by the Prince of Darkness.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 08, 2020, 02:28:05 am
This is the fundamental flaw with the (western) left hand path people, the lack of a definitive outline as to what IS the (western) left hand path. The 'label' has become whatever you 'need' it to be and doesn't stand on its own, which is antithetical to the actual (western) LHP philosophy.


This is the very definition of the left hand path, AKA, it's what _you_ fundamentally need, but not what anyone else needs. I have no idea what the 'actual' philosophy would be a reference to, but according to my understanding we have a few ideas on LHP that we can compare and contrast.

We could pick a spiritual frame of reference and simply limit the concept to that which is 'orthodox' is 'white/right' and what is heterodox is 'black/left'. (Generally, I feel that is too simple, personally.) The distinction here is on the practices and not the individuals partaking in them. This is generally the most accepted set of definitions.
My only sniglet with this is, orthodoxy/heterodoxy is what the Eastern LHP is about, the same goal but different approach. To approach the LHP from heterodoxy is to confirm and accept that the religion you are opposing actually exists.

Western LHP is about antinomianism, the opposition and thus the rebellion is not against some religion, rather it is against your lesser self.

]quote]To contrast, we could take another approach and go to motive and action. The right being benevolent in nature, order-affirming, and mindful of the needs of others. In this definition, we could say the left is sinister, malicious, selfish, and the individual thinks only of themselves. Essentially, using this criteria establishes that acts not the beliefs and practices determine the 'path' one travels. Modern occultists love this one because they get to play with 'magick' and still keep most of the belief system from the first case.[/quote] Never got that the LHP had anything to do with 'sinister', or  'malice'. Also, the techniques one uses are merely tools for some intent, at least that's how I see them, one can practice magick whether they are on the LHP or not.

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But, another definition, the one I'd prefer, is based on the ideas of Peter Carroll is in reference to the end goal of either methodology being fundamentally the same. That's to say that the right is trying to achieve godliness (spiritual progress) through purity and obedience, where the left hand path is attempting to free oneself of the delusions which obscure the goal. The ultimate destination, illumination, is the goal in both cases. Not too many people hold this view -- I'm the only one I know personally.
I tend to see it like RHP teaches divinity through association with an external deity, while the WLHP teaches divinity through emulation of an inner deity (Greater Self)
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 08, 2020, 02:33:27 am

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Could you give an example of what aspiring to one's Greater Self would look like, to make sure we're on the same page?
If you understand Platonic First Forms, then you understand what the Greater Self is. One's Greater Self is an isolate intelligence void of the dualism present in the objective universe. As a singularity and separate from the objective universe, our Greater Self is us at our ultimate potential, a monad, the authentic psyche.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 08, 2020, 08:24:57 am
If you look at the masses, they all adhere to the mainstream culture (atleast I refer to it as mainstream westernized culture where I live). You come from an entirely different country as do I, where I live (refering to the United States) their is a tremendous herd mentality, be it Political action, or the Nazerene Religion. The human population the way I personally view it, all think alike to that extent. Be it through the sides of Politics, Western Religion, and through the mundane, they lack to the independent critical thinking and choose to be stuck in the docile mut. The very essence of the Left Hand Path for me is to ground yourself out of that docile mut which in my personal opinion is the key component to slowly reaching as the Übermensch.
We also have mainstream culture here, but whether you like those forms of culture or not seems mainly to have to do with personal preferences.
I indirectly know some people who might belong to the herd, yet once I get to know someone better that tends to disperse such prejudices of mine towards them, so it's likely that the herd only exists as a prejudice.

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Yes, I agree with you here. As you may have seen my other commentary on achieving those goals "Non-Magically," this is the very essence of the Left Hand Path. Achieving your own Great Work by reaching to that final Level both in this existence and in the Astral Plane. These people who you refer to, are the people that you might say are in similar to the Elect, or do not realize the gift that is bestowed upon them by the Prince of Darkness.

But that seems like what humans are like in general. If they don't strive for their goals, it's because something's seriously wrong. Or do I just hang out with the "wrong" people? My range of social contacts is fairly limited. Sure I also know a couple people who don't (visibly) strive much but they either are really old or they have some mental health issue. And even then you could say that they are working on their goals, just not making much headway, or that they simply see no way in how to proceed.
Again, it's rather about how high you set the bar.

Fundamentally, it sort of is. But, I say that with a caveat that if we look at the core of Satanic philosophy (say Nietzsche, Rand, Redbeard, etc.)
My knowledge of Nietzsche, Rand and Redbeard is pretty basic, and at least with Rand's writings it didn't seem very agreeable to me. So I'm not sure whether I would describe that as much of the core of my philosophy, and I heard from some satanists more knowledgeable in these writings that they don't subscribe to them whatsoever.

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it's more of the alpha that comes with the methodology of being true to one's fundamental nature and making no excuses. It's not the alpha associated with being a 'Chad' and so on.
My fundamental nature includes making compromises and not making no excuses, lol.

This is the very definition of the left hand path, AKA, it's what _you_ fundamentally need, but not what anyone else needs. I have no idea what the 'actual' philosophy would be a reference to, but according to my understanding we have a few ideas on LHP that we can compare and contrast.
[...]
[the] definition [...] I'd prefer, is based on the ideas of Peter Carroll is in reference to the end goal of either methodology being fundamentally the same. That's to say that the right is trying to achieve godliness (spiritual progress) through purity and obedience, where the left hand path is attempting to free oneself of the delusions which obscure the goal. The ultimate destination, illumination, is the goal in both cases. Not too many people hold this view -- I'm the only one I know personally.
That sounds quite agreeable to me. I'm not sure why you think you're the only one holding that view, I wrote pretty much the same thing as your first 3 lines here in this very thread a couple posts ago.

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We could pick a spiritual frame of reference and simply limit the concept to that which is 'orthodox' is 'white/right' and what is heterodox is 'black/left'. (Generally, I feel that is too simple, personally.) The distinction here is on the practices and not the individuals partaking in them. This is generally the most accepted set of definitions.

To contrast, we could take another approach and go to motive and action. The right being benevolent in nature, order-affirming, and mindful of the needs of others. In this definition, we could say the left is sinister, malicious, selfish, and the individual thinks only of themselves. Essentially, using this criteria establishes that acts not the beliefs and practices determine the 'path' one travels. Modern occultists love this one because they get to play with 'magick' and still keep most of the belief system from the first case.
A combination of these two approaches seems most common to me among people who identify as RHPers.

Quote
The reason for the apparent debate here is that people haphazardly attempt to combine these ideas without any discrimination or realization of the fact that they haven't much to do with one another. This is what causes the perceived 'muddle' of the definition of the left-hand path, but there is actually no muddle just three completely different schools of thought supporting various arguments. Thus, if Lon Milo Duquette or ONA talk about the LHP they both speak in the context of the #2 case, but for very different reasons... Lon will speak of the fact that it's intent that matters and his actions are for good intents, and ONA speaks in terms of their 'sinister action' is what makes them left, etc. It's readily apparent how this can be an extremely confusing subject, lol.
Good example - and I could argue that Lon Milo Duquette is more LHP than the ONA.

Could you give an example of what aspiring to one's Greater Self would look like, to make sure we're on the same page?
If you understand Platonic First Forms, then you understand what the Greater Self is. One's Greater Self is an isolate intelligence void of the dualism present in the objective universe. As a singularity and separate from the objective universe, our Greater Self is us at our ultimate potential, a monad, the authentic psyche.
Thanks, but dude, I asked for a tangible real life example and you get started with platonic ideas? xD How does moving towards your Greater Self look like in your practice or in the practice of someone you know, or in a hypothetical case?
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 08, 2020, 02:06:38 pm
If you look at the masses, they all adhere to the mainstream culture (atleast I refer to it as mainstream westernized culture where I live). You come from an entirely different country as do I, where I live (refering to the United States) their is a tremendous herd mentality, be it Political action, or the Nazerene Religion. The human population the way I personally view it, all think alike to that extent. Be it through the sides of Politics, Western Religion, and through the mundane, they lack to the independent critical thinking and choose to be stuck in the docile mut. The very essence of the Left Hand Path for me is to ground yourself out of that docile mut which in my personal opinion is the key component to slowly reaching as the Übermensch.
We also have mainstream culture here, but whether you like those forms of culture or not seems mainly to have to do with personal preferences.
I indirectly know some people who might belong to the herd, yet once I get to know someone better that tends to disperse such prejudices of mine towards them, so it's likely that the herd only exists as a prejudice.

Quote
Yes, I agree with you here. As you may have seen my other commentary on achieving those goals "Non-Magically," this is the very essence of the Left Hand Path. Achieving your own Great Work by reaching to that final Level both in this existence and in the Astral Plane. These people who you refer to, are the people that you might say are in similar to the Elect, or do not realize the gift that is bestowed upon them by the Prince of Darkness.

But that seems like what humans are like in general. If they don't strive for their goals, it's because something's seriously wrong. Or do I just hang out with the "wrong" people? My range of social contacts is fairly limited. Sure I also know a couple people who don't (visibly) strive much but they either are really old or they have some mental health issue. And even then you could say that they are working on their goals, just not making much headway, or that they simply see no way in how to proceed.
Again, it's rather about how high you set the bar.

Fundamentally, it sort of is. But, I say that with a caveat that if we look at the core of Satanic philosophy (say Nietzsche, Rand, Redbeard, etc.)
My knowledge of Nietzsche, Rand and Redbeard is pretty basic, and at least with Rand's writings it didn't seem very agreeable to me. So I'm not sure whether I would describe that as much of the core of my philosophy, and I heard from some satanists more knowledgeable in these writings that they don't subscribe to them whatsoever.

Quote
it's more of the alpha that comes with the methodology of being true to one's fundamental nature and making no excuses. It's not the alpha associated with being a 'Chad' and so on.
My fundamental nature includes making compromises and not making no excuses, lol.

This is the very definition of the left hand path, AKA, it's what _you_ fundamentally need, but not what anyone else needs. I have no idea what the 'actual' philosophy would be a reference to, but according to my understanding we have a few ideas on LHP that we can compare and contrast.
[...]
[the] definition [...] I'd prefer, is based on the ideas of Peter Carroll is in reference to the end goal of either methodology being fundamentally the same. That's to say that the right is trying to achieve godliness (spiritual progress) through purity and obedience, where the left hand path is attempting to free oneself of the delusions which obscure the goal. The ultimate destination, illumination, is the goal in both cases. Not too many people hold this view -- I'm the only one I know personally.
That sounds quite agreeable to me. I'm not sure why you think you're the only one holding that view, I wrote pretty much the same thing as your first 3 lines here in this very thread a couple posts ago.

Quote
We could pick a spiritual frame of reference and simply limit the concept to that which is 'orthodox' is 'white/right' and what is heterodox is 'black/left'. (Generally, I feel that is too simple, personally.) The distinction here is on the practices and not the individuals partaking in them. This is generally the most accepted set of definitions.

To contrast, we could take another approach and go to motive and action. The right being benevolent in nature, order-affirming, and mindful of the needs of others. In this definition, we could say the left is sinister, malicious, selfish, and the individual thinks only of themselves. Essentially, using this criteria establishes that acts not the beliefs and practices determine the 'path' one travels. Modern occultists love this one because they get to play with 'magick' and still keep most of the belief system from the first case.
A combination of these two approaches seems most common to me among people who identify as RHPers.

Quote
The reason for the apparent debate here is that people haphazardly attempt to combine these ideas without any discrimination or realization of the fact that they haven't much to do with one another. This is what causes the perceived 'muddle' of the definition of the left-hand path, but there is actually no muddle just three completely different schools of thought supporting various arguments. Thus, if Lon Milo Duquette or ONA talk about the LHP they both speak in the context of the #2 case, but for very different reasons... Lon will speak of the fact that it's intent that matters and his actions are for good intents, and ONA speaks in terms of their 'sinister action' is what makes them left, etc. It's readily apparent how this can be an extremely confusing subject, lol.
Good example - and I could argue that Lon Milo Duquette is more LHP than the ONA.

Could you give an example of what aspiring to one's Greater Self would look like, to make sure we're on the same page?
If you understand Platonic First Forms, then you understand what the Greater Self is. One's Greater Self is an isolate intelligence void of the dualism present in the objective universe. As a singularity and separate from the objective universe, our Greater Self is us at our ultimate potential, a monad, the authentic psyche.
Thanks, but dude, I asked for a tangible real life example and you get started with platonic ideas? xD How does moving towards your Greater Self look like in your practice or in the practice of someone you know, or in a hypothetical case?
Ok . . . it looks like this ;)
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on September 08, 2020, 09:00:10 pm
Quote
But that seems like what humans are like in general. If they don't strive for their goals, it's because something's seriously wrong.

At the same time I find these to be all excuses, my personal take rather varies. Sure we can argue that a human who is a drugged fiend does have a certain problem, but that can be entirely overcome if they choose to will it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have the feeling you are more of an idealist from reading many of your responses respectfully, I look at things rather non Idealistically.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on September 08, 2020, 09:05:09 pm
Quote
We also have mainstream culture here, but whether you like those forms of culture or not seems mainly to have to do with personal preferences.

Wasn't necessarily implying the U.S. as the only Westernized Mainstream Culture. Yes we can both say that Mainstream culture can be split into different fragments, which my other commentary was trying to imply. However, yes we can say that the average person has a personal preference for culture's. But what separates me from the rest is going to the extremes by completely isolating myself from these preferences of culture's in order to achieve what I want to achieve on my bridge.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on September 08, 2020, 09:08:44 pm
Quote
Sure I also know a couple people who don't (visibly) strive much but they either are really old or they have some mental health issue. And even then you could say that they are working on their goals, just not making much headway, or that they simply see no way in how to proceed.
Again, it's rather about how high you set the bar.

Again, I am not arguing with you on how "high you set the bar," however I believe in taking that highness much more deeper.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on September 08, 2020, 09:17:59 pm
Quote
To approach the LHP from heterodoxy is to confirm and accept that the religion you are opposing actually exists.

Western LHP is about antinomianism, the opposition and thus the rebellion is not against some religion, rather it is against your lesser self.

I can agree with that point of view of the Western Left Hand Path, including your statement concerning the approach to the LHP. However if one began's on the Western Left Hand Path, wouldn't their rebellion first start on some "religion" then move going against that Lesser Self? The way I see it, is an evolution when one is on the Western Left Hand Path.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 09, 2020, 04:45:34 am
Ok . . . it looks like this ;)
I get it. So you don't want to get into specifics. Of course the whole of oneself is the result, but that's not gonna help me understand what exactly you count as progressing on the path and which things you wouldn't count.


At the same time I find these to be all excuses, my personal take rather varies. Sure we can argue that a human who is a drugged fiend does have a certain problem, but that can be entirely overcome if they choose to will it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have the feeling you are more of an idealist from reading many of your responses respectfully, I look at things rather non Idealistically.
Huh, why? Do you think I reacted to Etu's 2nd to last comment as I did if I were that much of an adherent of idealism?

And I'm not convinced that people can just will themselves to overcome their problems. It helps but it's far from enough. Unless you count only people as satanists who are capable of that - if so, then I'm none.

Wasn't necessarily implying the U.S. as the only Westernized Mainstream Culture. Yes we can both say that Mainstream culture can be split into different fragments, which my other commentary was trying to imply. However, yes we can say that the average person has a personal preference for culture's. But what separates me from the rest is going to the extremes by completely isolating myself from these preferences of culture's in order to achieve what I want to achieve on my bridge.

That separation is kinda what I started with long before I ever heard of the LHP. Much of what I learned in the meantime could be summarized as "the mainstream isn't that bad" or "people in general aren't that bad". And knowing a bit of mainstream culture is quite useful in keeping relationships.

Again, I am not arguing with you on how "high you set the bar," however I believe in taking that highness much more deeper.

I.e. higher you mean by deeper?

The only problem in setting the bar too low I see is that it includes results that are very far off from an ideal result of the path. But the direction and intent are still there.

It's just not within the means of everyone all the time due to their circumstances to get to the level of, for example, personal freedom that the path calls for. But that doesn't mean they can't try and move into that direction and thereby still benefit from the path.


Quote from: Etu Malku
To approach the LHP from heterodoxy is to confirm and accept that the religion you are opposing actually exists.

Western LHP is about antinomianism, the opposition and thus the rebellion is not against some religion, rather it is against your lesser self.

I can agree with that point of view of the Western Left Hand Path, including your statement concerning the approach to the LHP. However if one began's on the Western Left Hand Path, wouldn't their rebellion first start on some "religion" then move going against that Lesser Self? The way I see it, is an evolution when one is on the Western Left Hand Path.

Probably, but that religion (or any ideology they grew up in) is thereby part of their lesser self if I understand that terminology correctly.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 09, 2020, 09:39:29 pm
Ok . . . it looks like this ;)
I get it. So you don't want to get into specifics. Of course the whole of oneself is the result, but that's not gonna help me understand what exactly you count as progressing on the path and which things you wouldn't count.
I can give you a chaotic example of when we might come into the awareness of our Greater Self. If you've ever been in a car accident there are those moments where you are entirely outside of yourself observing the actual accident, and for some even immediately afterward for a few fleeting moments. If you managed to maneuver out of say, a multiple car collision, as I have, you can't but look back and wonder what the hell was guiding you through that. Perhaps it was luck, but more likely it was the YOU that is not present in your normal, everyday, mundane existence. In a situation such as this, one can easily sense an external agency acting in your best interest.

As for 'progressing' on the Path, it is the conscious effort to strengthen this connection with one's Greater Self in order to enable those qualities to remain present in the now of your existence.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 10, 2020, 07:04:21 am
I can give you a chaotic example of when we might come into the awareness of our Greater Self. If you've ever been in a car accident there are those moments where you are entirely outside of yourself observing the actual accident, and for some even immediately afterward for a few fleeting moments. If you managed to maneuver out of say, a multiple car collision, as I have, you can't but look back and wonder what the hell was guiding you through that. Perhaps it was luck, but more likely it was the YOU that is not present in your normal, everyday, mundane existence. In a situation such as this, one can easily sense an external agency acting in your best interest.

As for 'progressing' on the Path, it is the conscious effort to strengthen this connection with one's Greater Self in order to enable those qualities to remain present in the now of your existence.
Thanks! I'm a bit surprised. I recall several of your writings in which you warn against taking things as genuine spiritual experiences that can be explained to be caused by brain chemistry. And it's to be expected that getting into a life-threatening situation would put one into a specific mindset.

Now I haven't ever been in any big accident or similar. But I had several situations in which I might have gotten seriously hurt, but was lucky enough I didn't. Usually, my thoughts are then rather on relief and on how to avoid getting into the respective situation again than on ascribing the outcome to any higher power, and I'm also not sure whether I've ever experienced that kind of feeling of being outside myself which you describe. And if it was really bad I might also cuddle up and cry for a bit if in privacy to get over the shock.

I also thank my deity for getting away unharmed, though (which is in so far similar to your concept of the greater self as also there, one is a part or manifestation of it).
And also when praying I thereby ascribe to it that it had helped me and may help me in risky situations in the future.
But that doesn't really convince me of its existence as a self-aware being, I primarily see that as a psychological technique to help me with anxiety and strengthen my confidence.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on September 10, 2020, 03:57:06 pm
@Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) I will get back to your responses, I actually have had to catch up on some of the talking's you and @Etu Malku (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=215) had on the forum. Iv'e been extremely busy as of late.

But going to @Etu Malku (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=215) Response
Quote
The phrase 'more than human' isn't that difficult to understand. One becomes More Than Human when the human aspect of our existence is transcended. In other words, as we become more like our Greater Self, we become less like our mundane self, thus more than human.

He's hit it on the head, this is something that him and I can personally agree with. Even though @Etu Malku (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=215) and I have entirely different beliefs on our views of the LHP, we both strive to achieve that Greater Self, Higher Self, Ubermensch whatever you choose to call it. This is as previously stated is the concept of the Western Left Hand Path. Unfortunatley as Etu Malku previously stated I believe, not a lot of people who are on the Western Left Hand Path achieve this stage of that Greater Self. When you first Journey on the Western Left Hand Path your ultimate goal is rebelling against what is Conventional, the Second stage is then working on erasing that "Lesser Self," the third stage is achieving that godhood. For me personally, I view myself on both on that second and third stage.

Some people are often trapped with Satanism in which they are stuck on stage 1, and remain their without any evolutionary progress.

But @Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) The best way to kindv'e point you what Etu and I mean, is watching a few educational videos from Mr. LeRoy. Not trying to give you the wrong perception of how both of us may seem so dogmatic, but of how both of us perceive nearly these same approaches. (Its been a while watching some of these videos, but hopefully you will find some of this useful.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffp0HwHHAvE&ab_channel=ThomasLeRoy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffp0HwHHAvE&ab_channel=ThomasLeRoy)




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbs6ANh8QlM&ab_channel=ThomasLeRoy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbs6ANh8QlM&ab_channel=ThomasLeRoy)
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 10, 2020, 04:17:39 pm
@Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) I will get back to your responses, I actually have had to catch up on some of the talking's you and @Etu Malku (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=215) had on the forum. Iv'e been extremely busy as of late.

But going to @Etu Malku (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=215) Response
Quote
The phrase 'more than human' isn't that difficult to understand. One becomes More Than Human when the human aspect of our existence is transcended. In other words, as we become more like our Greater Self, we become less like our mundane self, thus more than human.

He's hit it on the head, this is something that him and I can personally agree with. Even though @Etu Malku (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=215) and I have entirely different beliefs on our views of the LHP, we both strive to achieve that Greater Self, Higher Self, Ubermensch whatever you choose to call it. This is as previously stated is the concept of the Western Left Hand Path. Unfortunatley as Etu Malku previously stated I believe, not a lot of people who are on the Western Left Hand Path achieve this stage of that Greater Self. When you first Journey on the Western Left Hand Path your ultimate goal is rebelling against what is Conventional, the Second stage is then working on erasing that "Lesser Self," the third stage is achieving that godhood. For me personally, I view myself on both on that second and third stage.

Some people are often trapped with Satanism in which they are stuck on stage 1, and remain their without any evolutionary progress.

But @Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) The best way to kindv'e point you what Etu and I mean, is watching a few educational videos from Mr. LeRoy. Not trying to give you the wrong perception of how both of us may seem so dogmatic, but of how both of us perceive nearly these same approaches. (Its been a while watching some of these videos, but hopefully you will find some of this useful.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffp0HwHHAvE&ab_channel=ThomasLeRoy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffp0HwHHAvE&ab_channel=ThomasLeRoy)Ya got me there ;)




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbs6ANh8QlM&ab_channel=ThomasLeRoy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbs6ANh8QlM&ab_channel=ThomasLeRoy)
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on September 10, 2020, 04:30:44 pm
Quote
Huh, why? Do you think I reacted to Etu's 2nd to last comment as I did if I were that much of an adherent of idealism?

Not really, but as rigid as this might sound. Going back to my previous commentary on exchanges of my mention of "how everyone's different," or that some people may find "collectivism/egalitarianism" beneficial. I myself tend to find Socialism, TST, whatever you wish to call it to be a contradiction in the Western Left Hand Path. I have no intention for someone to coddle me with their arms saying "we accept you," my own concept is being an independent being or higher being who is free from the constrains of others. Who basically soars in the air like Zarathustra to put it in words. Of course you can say as before, that others may find "Socialism, equality, beneficial to their antinomian approach," the way I view it, is yes some people may accomplish it, but at the same time they are the masses achieving this exact approach in which it splits them from the LHP. If you look at National Socialism, the Nazi's regarded the Aryan as the Superman, if you look at the population who were the collective within National Socialism, they were all regarded as the Aryan Superman both trying to achieve that goal.

I guess where I am trying to get at, is if you have the masses that are in the same Satanic Boat mixed with a bit of Socialism or whatever you wish to call it. They won't achieve or transcend fully, yes you can argue that it could still be transcendence, but they will only transcend as the Collective not to that concept of how Etu and I strive at.

Sorry if I went a bit off subject, I guess what I am trying to say on my word "idealism." You fall more in line with TST's approach of things, from reading some of your comments. I do apologize if my response might be filled with assumptions, I am the kind of guy you might say that chooses to boldly speak with honesty, instead of sugar coating things.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 10, 2020, 07:10:26 pm
I have watched many of Thomas LeRoy's videos, but I don't often do so now because he often repeats himself and talks about stuff I already know (and because I don't find his reconstruction of Indo-European mythology completely convincing). But well, gonna give those 2 a listen and then get back to you.

Regarding idealism, guess we might simply mean different things. Etu had just been talking about platonic ideas, which relates to the meaning of idealism that I'm associating the most with that term. But I guess you meant one of the more colloquial meanings, e.g. striving towards an ideal independent of whether it can be reached or not.

I do tend to find TST's approach fairly agreeable. Not intending to join that organization, I'm not much of an activist or very social. But I see that their approach seems to be helping a lot of people with utilizing a Satan-based spirituality for working towards their goals, and even if it might be unlikely that they'd reach that third stage, it'll at least get them closer than they might get otherwise. I don't have a clue whether I can reach it or whether it's even reachable, yet progress is progress.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: crossfire on September 11, 2020, 01:26:10 am

Not really, but as rigid as this might sound. Going back to my previous commentary on exchanges of my mention of "how everyone's different," or that some people may find "collectivism/egalitarianism" beneficial.
I wouldn't brush egalitarianism in with collectivism.  Collectivism does not honor the individual and is framed around the collective.  It seeks to regulate/hold individuals in check in order to further the collective.  Egalitarianism is framed around the individual and honors the individual.  It protects the individual from collateral damage from a rampaging collective by regulating the collective so it doesn't harm individuals.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: crossfire on September 11, 2020, 01:28:35 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffp0HwHHAvE&ab_channel=ThomasLeRoy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffp0HwHHAvE&ab_channel=ThomasLeRoy)




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbs6ANh8QlM&ab_channel=ThomasLeRoy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbs6ANh8QlM&ab_channel=ThomasLeRoy)
I was at the conference where these were recorded live. :)
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 11, 2020, 08:20:52 am
But @Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) The best way to kindv'e point you what Etu and I mean, is watching a few educational videos from Mr. LeRoy. Not trying to give you the wrong perception of how both of us may seem so dogmatic, but of how both of us perceive nearly these same approaches. (Its been a while watching some of these videos, but hopefully you will find some of this useful.)

Hm, I watched the 2 vids, and I don't really get how that relates to your approaches to the LHP. His conclusion is that self-deification means acceptance of the whole of existence (and the whole of oneself) as good. He doesn't distinguish between higher or lesser self or whatever, the only particular part of the self he brings up is the shadow, which, while it might have some parallels is a very different notion from the greater self.

As most of the first vid is on Hinduism, some notes on that as well to clarify what I was referring to in my previous comment. Now I really need to read up again on Hinduism, but based from what I remember:
Shiva is a latecomer to the pantheon, probably based on some deity from the indigenous population of the Indic subcontinent. And that trinity of Brahman, Vishnu and Shiva is even later but doesn't play much of a role in Hinduist practice as pretty much every town has a different deity that they worship - they might equate it with Vishnu or Shiva or Shakti (basically never with Brahman), but even then they only equate it with one and completely disregard the others. In other videos, LeRoy also brings up the comparison between Cernunnos and that famous relief from the Indus Valley culture - but Indus Valley culture broke down a couple hundred years before the first speakers of Indic languages moved into the Indic subcontinent, so even if Shiva goes back to that same entity that is depicted there, that would just mean that he has no relation whatsoever to Cernunnos. And as someone pointed out in the Q&A, what he's talking about is LHP Hinduism (which developed about 1200 to 1500 years ago I think), which is different from "5000 years of unbroken tradition".


Quote
@Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) I will get back to your responses, I actually have had to catch up on some of the talking's you and @Etu Malku (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=215) had on the forum. Iv'e been extremely busy as of late.

But going to @Etu Malku (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=215) Response
Quote
The phrase 'more than human' isn't that difficult to understand. One becomes More Than Human when the human aspect of our existence is transcended. In other words, as we become more like our Greater Self, we become less like our mundane self, thus more than human.

He's hit it on the head, this is something that him and I can personally agree with. Even though @Etu Malku (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=215) and I have entirely different beliefs on our views of the LHP, we both strive to achieve that Greater Self, Higher Self, Ubermensch whatever you choose to call it. This is as previously stated is the concept of the Western Left Hand Path. Unfortunatley as Etu Malku previously stated I believe, not a lot of people who are on the Western Left Hand Path achieve this stage of that Greater Self. When you first Journey on the Western Left Hand Path your ultimate goal is rebelling against what is Conventional, the Second stage is then working on erasing that "Lesser Self," the third stage is achieving that godhood. For me personally, I view myself on both on that second and third stage.

Some people are often trapped with Satanism in which they are stuck on stage 1, and remain their without any evolutionary progress.
For me, that first stage was me having a certain despise of popular culture.
That didn't relate to my spirituality whatsoever, though, except that listening to metal was what got me to read lyrics related to various forms of the LHP and thereby looking into that further.
So I'm not sure whether I ever was on that first stage, because to me, my spirituality has nothing to do with rebelling against conventions - on the contrary, I'm happy when I find conventional things that fit into it.
What exactly do you mean by the lesser self? Those parts of oneself that get into the way of your goals? If so, then I would rather consider it LHP to work on integrating these parts instead of trying to erase them (which would be in line with what LeRoy seems to be talking about concerning the shadow).


Not really, but as rigid as this might sound. Going back to my previous commentary on exchanges of my mention of "how everyone's different," or that some people may find "collectivism/egalitarianism" beneficial.
I wouldn't brush egalitarianism in with collectivism.  Collectivism does not honor the individual and is framed around the collective.  It seeks to regulate/hold individuals in check in order to further the collective.  Egalitarianism is framed around the individual and honors the individual.  It protects the individual from collateral damage from a rampaging collective by regulating the collective so it doesn't harm individuals.
That sounds about right - TST would thereby be egalitarian and not collectivist.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 11, 2020, 01:05:25 pm
What exactly do you mean by the lesser self? Those parts of oneself that get into the way of your goals? If so, then I would rather consider it LHP to work on integrating these parts instead of trying to erase them (which would be in line with what LeRoy seems to be talking about concerning the shadow).
I think you're asking me this, yes? What I am referring to with the words Lesser Self is the human/primate psyche, full of habits, indoctrination, misinformation, non-thinking, and multiple shadows which when fully on the western left hand path need to be rectified and in the case of the multiple shadow aspects these need to be confronted and conquered in order to evolve spiritually. The various schools and techniques of the occult throughout history contain many approaches to doing just that which is why it can be beneficial to study them and for some to join a community of like-minded adherents.

I have butted heads with Thomas many times in regards to my position that eastern left hand path practices are basically right hand path goals approached from heterodoxy and that western left hand path practice is approached from antinomianism where the god being sought is one's Greater Self and not an external, separate god/ideal.

Just a FYI,  the incidental music behind Mr. LeRoy's videos are from my recordings/compositions, if anyone is interested in hearing more of my musical work feel free to hit the links below.

https://tarkhem.bandcamp.com/
https://diabolusenmusiqa.com/
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 11, 2020, 05:53:33 pm
What exactly do you mean by the lesser self? Those parts of oneself that get into the way of your goals? If so, then I would rather consider it LHP to work on integrating these parts instead of trying to erase them (which would be in line with what LeRoy seems to be talking about concerning the shadow).
I think you're asking me this, yes?

I had been asking Sutekh because it was his claim that the videos by Thomas LeRoy would relate to what you two had just written, but you brought the term lesser self into this thread and I'm also interested in your reply of course.

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What I am referring to with the words Lesser Self is the human/primate psyche, full of habits, indoctrination, misinformation, non-thinking, and multiple shadows which when fully on the western left hand path need to be rectified and in the case of the multiple shadow aspects these need to be confronted and conquered in order to evolve spiritually. The various schools and techniques of the occult throughout history contain many approaches to doing just that which is why it can be beneficial to study them and for some to join a community of like-minded adherents.
For some of those ends, I would rather recommend self-help books like "Tiny Habits" and "The Power of When". Those I found quite helpful recently for figuring out (parts of) what's stopping me from overcoming certain habits and what new ones to establish that are more beneficial to my goals.

I don't think I've ever found a specifically LHP technique to help me with those kinda things, though. Some did deal with getting rid of some forms of indoctrination, but not with one that I'd be aware of having (well if one's aware of it it's not really indoctrination, though). And for mis-information you can't do much anyway but continue learning and questioning. Nor do I think did I find much in spiritual writings that would relate to shadows of mine. Things that cause me to face my shadows are rather situations of daily life or work.
Most occult "workbooks" or collections of techniques I'm familiar with focus on mindfulness, meditation, visualization, spellcasting, spirit communication, perceiving synchronicities, dream journaling, correspondence sets... Some of these things can contribute to solving the issues you listed, yet it seems far from the focus of occultism by my impression. Or perhaps I just don't see what the techniques are supposed to do. So could you give me one example of what you had in mind so I know what to look for?
I know there are some techniques specifically on shadow work but they are usually separate and not a central part of a standard curriculum I think.

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I have butted heads with Thomas many times in regards to my position that eastern left hand path practices are basically right hand path goals approached from heterodoxy and that western left hand path practice is approached from antinomianism where the god being sought is one's Greater Self and not an external, separate god/ideal.
Even in RHP hinduism, god is not an external, separate god/ideal, though, based on my vague knowledge of that religion. But we'd have to ask some Hindus I guess.

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Just a FYI,  the incidental music behind Mr. LeRoy's videos are from my recordings/compositions, if anyone is interested in hearing more of my musical work feel free to hit the links below.

https://tarkhem.bandcamp.com/
https://diabolusenmusiqa.com/
I'll give it a listen, thanks for the info!
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 11, 2020, 11:26:35 pm
Pathworking the Tree of Daath (Qliphoth) is but one WLHP practice that confronts the Shadow Self and aims to conquer it, another is working with the Goetia or Solomonic Magick. There are many others, and certain organizations such as mine have developed personal work that will accomplish this.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 12, 2020, 04:14:50 am
Ah yes, pathworking does. Or aims to at least - haven't done much because I always get hung up on either too complex preparations that make no sense to me or on instructions being too simple ("say these couple words and you're done") so that I can't see the benefit either.

It's usually based on the assumption that one is experienced/skilled in communicating with spirits (which I'm not).

Last pathworking I tried (in relation to an event by The Temple of the Ascending Flame earlier this year), I got horrible backpain the first night and had to skip the remainder of the working (tried but I couldn't focus). Well I did get the insight that I should really exercise more (which I was aware of, just didn't know what or when, which I've kinda figured out by now) - not sure whether that counts as a pathworking result, though.

And that was again one of those that call for lots of ingredients that seemed much too complex to me, broke it down to stuff I actually had available and felt comfortable using. (Not gonna learn how to use incense, draw blood safely and handle an alcohol-based open fire indoors simultaneously). I can kinda see the point in the things called for,  but instead of making me feel committed to the rite, putting that effort into it would make me feel pissed off, instead of getting me into a trance, the incense would just get me anxious,  and so on.

I don't think pathworkings are that often included in the "workbooks", though.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 12, 2020, 09:38:31 am
Does the 9-nights long initiation rite in Kelly's Aegishjalmur also count as pathworking? I see some parallels. If so, then that's one pathworking I completed. Didn't really notice any effect of it on my psyche, though.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Etu Malku on September 12, 2020, 10:35:51 pm
Ah yes, pathworking does. Or aims to at least - haven't done much because I always get hung up on either too complex preparations that make no sense to me or on instructions being too simple ("say these couple words and you're done") so that I can't see the benefit either.

It's usually based on the assumption that one is experienced/skilled in communicating with spirits (which I'm not).

Last pathworking I tried (in relation to an event by The Temple of the Ascending Flame earlier this year), I got horrible backpain the first night and had to skip the remainder of the working (tried but I couldn't focus). Well I did get the insight that I should really exercise more (which I was aware of, just didn't know what or when, which I've kinda figured out by now) - not sure whether that counts as a pathworking result, though.

And that was again one of those that call for lots of ingredients that seemed much too complex to me, broke it down to stuff I actually had available and felt comfortable using. (Not gonna learn how to use incense, draw blood safely and handle an alcohol-based open fire indoors simultaneously). I can kinda see the point in the things called for,  but instead of making me feel committed to the rite, putting that effort into it would make me feel pissed off, instead of getting me into a trance, the incense would just get me anxious,  and so on.

I don't think pathworkings are that often included in the "workbooks", though.
Pathworking, like ritual, doesn't happen in one sitting, it's a long process. When we pathwork the Qliphoth it takes practically the year.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 13, 2020, 12:27:20 am
That makes sense, I just don't recall having seen any pathworking instructions that were set out for that kinda time frame, at least not any with a particularly LHP bent.
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on September 15, 2020, 12:50:24 am
@Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) I will get back to you as soon as I can. (Like I said, lately Iv'e been very busy.)
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on September 15, 2020, 03:22:03 am
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Hm, I watched the 2 vids, and I don't really get how that relates to your approaches to the LHP. His conclusion is that self-deification means acceptance of the whole of existence (and the whole of oneself) as good. He doesn't distinguish between higher or lesser self or whatever, the only particular part of the self he brings up is the shadow, which, while it might have some parallels is a very different notion from the greater self.

What I was trying to bring up were a few hints that I was trying to show as my support of what I meant, on my previous commentary I mentioned a bit of the problems on how most people approach the Western Left Hand Path. I am not implying everyone as a whole having that problematic approach, as I am not one who is a so called "Tom Raspotnik" lol. The videos mention some small hints, of how those who get into Satanism would fall for the self deification trapping, and would of course as nearly mentioned would not progress along the Path, that Is where I was trying to get at. I could care less about the talking on the Eastern Left Hand Path history as its not my interest to explore it.

On the talk of accepting Reality as it is, or of oneself as good. I can personally agree on that, the LHP should be about staying grounded in Reality through that Self Deification process. To put these in my own analogical wording, "I don't see a person who chooses to not accept the truth of reality but focuses on his Magical interest as his way of self deification." What I am trying to get at is, if one chooses not to accept Reality or that self as "good" then their wouldn't be no point in achieving that process.


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So I'm not sure whether I ever was on that first stage, because to me, my spirituality has nothing to do with rebelling against conventions - on the contrary, I'm happy when I find conventional things that fit into it.
What exactly do you mean by the lesser self? Those parts of oneself that get into the way of your goals? If so, then I would rather consider it LHP to work on integrating these parts instead of trying to erase them (which would be in line with what LeRoy seems to be talking about concerning the shadow).

Perhaps you miss understand of what I was implying on "Erasing that Lesser Self." You and I have different wordings of the subject. Like LeRoy, I agree on being face to face with that Lesser Self accepting as it is, but by overcoming it. And what do I mean by "Overcoming it?" Erasing it, we can call it many things. "Over coming the human," etc, words that have the same definite goals do not mean a thing, what counts is having that goal and pursuing it. Yes, to answer your question I regard that Lesser Self as getting in the way on the Left Hand Path,
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I think you're asking me this, yes? What I am referring to with the words Lesser Self is the human/primate psyche, full of habits, indoctrination, misinformation, non-thinking, and multiple shadows which when fully on the western left hand path need to be rectified and in the case of the multiple shadow aspects these need to be confronted and conquered in order to evolve spiritually.

Etu Malku has it right, like I said @Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) Words don't mean shit, what matters is how you approach that goal.

@Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) You may had misunderstood of what I was also trying to get at on stage 1. The reason why Satanism appears to be a joke is how some practitioners choose to handle it in an illogical manner. I am not saying this to you, what do I mean by that? To correct the misunderstanding, what I mean by Conventionality on the first stage is Conventional Religion. Of course some may view Conventional religion as part of that Lesser Self. However I view it as separate from that Lesser Self of stage 2. To give you an example of what I have been spilling out, take some random angry "Satanist" who hates "Christianity," and is so focused on hating it, to the point that he is stuck on that first stage, and maybe stuck on that by not furthering those other stages. This "Satanist" would be trapped under the ocean whirlpool constantly letting it drown him.

(I lost my thinking of what I was going to say next, since its the middle of the night for me, I might wrap this up for now.)
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 15, 2020, 08:25:50 am
What I was trying to bring up were a few hints that I was trying to show as my support of what I meant, on my previous commentary I mentioned a bit of the problems on how most people approach the Western Left Hand Path. I am not implying everyone as a whole having that problematic approach, as I am not one who is a so called "Tom Raspotnik" lol. The videos mention some small hints, of how those who get into Satanism would fall for the self deification trapping, and would of course as nearly mentioned would not progress along the Path, that Is where I was trying to get at. I could care less about the talking on the Eastern Left Hand Path history as its not my interest to explore it.

I see, you meant the part where he was talking about what the LHP isn't about, not about what it is about.
Well if it takes that little to be on the path...

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On the talk of accepting Reality as it is, or of oneself as good. I can personally agree on that, the LHP should be about staying grounded in Reality through that Self Deification process. To put these in my own analogical wording, "I don't see a person who chooses to not accept the truth of reality but focuses on his Magical interest as his way of self deification." What I am trying to get at is, if one chooses not to accept Reality or that self as "good" then their wouldn't be no point in achieving that process.
Well regarding accepting reality as good, both Setians and Anti-Cosmic Gnostics seem to consider themselves separate from the objective universe and at least the Gnostics claim to want to get rid of it (depending on how literally you take them). So that part didn't seem to me something universally accepted by LHPers.

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Perhaps you miss understand of what I was implying on "Erasing that Lesser Self." You and I have different wordings of the subject. Like LeRoy, I agree on being face to face with that Lesser Self accepting as it is, but by overcoming it. And what do I mean by "Overcoming it?" Erasing it, we can call it many things. "Over coming the human," etc, words that have the same definite goals do not mean a thing, what counts is having that goal and pursuing it. Yes, to answer your question I regard that Lesser Self as getting in the way on the Left Hand Path,

Thanks for clarifying, yes I found your wording a bit confusing.

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You may had misunderstood of what I was also trying to get at on stage 1. The reason why Satanism appears to be a joke is how some practitioners choose to handle it in an illogical manner. I am not saying this to you, what do I mean by that? To correct the misunderstanding, what I mean by Conventionality on the first stage is Conventional Religion. Of course some may view Conventional religion as part of that Lesser Self. However I view it as separate from that Lesser Self of stage 2. To give you an example of what I have been spilling out, take some random angry "Satanist" who hates "Christianity," and is so focused on hating it, to the point that he is stuck on that first stage, and maybe stuck on that by not furthering those other stages. This "Satanist" would be trapped under the ocean whirlpool constantly letting it drown him.

I see, but as not everyone grows up with a religion, stage 1 doesn't apply to everyone. (Well I did have religion class in school and even went to Sunday school for a year for my confirmation because tradition, but the form of Christianity here is very liberal, even including atheist perspectives, and my parents are atheists anyway).
That's why I wrote about what other forms of Conventionality it could apply to instead. But if you mean it to only refer to religion, then I guess it's just not relevant for many people.

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(I lost my thinking of what I was going to say next, since its the middle of the night for me, I might wrap this up for now.)
Good night ^^ No worries, just write whenever it's best for yourself ;)
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Sutekh on September 15, 2020, 05:08:19 pm
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Well regarding accepting reality as good, both Setians and Anti-Cosmic Gnostics seem to consider themselves separate from the objective universe and at least the Gnostics claim to want to get rid of it (depending on how literally you take them). So that part didn't seem to me something universally accepted by LHPers.

Ill'e try to make this sound less contradictory, I don't accept reality to be good but I understand that importance of being grounded in that reality of practicality. So, to that extent I accept what happens in that Reality as it is, even though I separate myself from it. To put it in terms, a Setian would be focused on success. Yes, that Setian would be dedicated in pursuing the Black Arts, but at the same time the Setian is grounded in that harsh reality in order for him or her to self preserver in his or her own success in that Reality. To put it bluntly the Setian is practical in his or successes in life, hence a good Setian wouldn't revolve his whole life around the occult as an escape from that reality, instead he balances both ways. From re watching both videos by Mr. LeRoy I tend to look at his talk of accepting Reality in a different perspective.

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(I lost my thinking of what I was going to say next, since its the middle of the night for me, I might wrap this up for now.)

I finally had the chance to re think what I was going to say, :). People have different wordings on their goals in achieving through the Western Left Hand Path. But they are about the same commonality you might say, as my previous comments mentioned, hence those who have different wordings are achieving the same thing on the path "Becoming more than Human."

(might seem like a repetition but that was where my thoughts went to)
Title: Re: 2 Hour interview with a well known public Satanist
Post by: Liu on September 15, 2020, 07:41:43 pm
Ill'e try to make this sound less contradictory, I don't accept reality to be good but I understand that importance of being grounded in that reality of practicality. So, to that extent I accept what happens in that Reality as it is, even though I separate myself from it. To put it in terms, a Setian would be focused on success. Yes, that Setian would be dedicated in pursuing the Black Arts, but at the same time the Setian is grounded in that harsh reality in order for him or her to self preserver in his or her own success in that Reality. To put it bluntly the Setian is practical in his or successes in life, hence a good Setian wouldn't revolve his whole life around the occult as an escape from that reality, instead he balances both ways. From re watching both videos by Mr. LeRoy I tend to look at his talk of accepting Reality in a different perspective.
Ah yes, I would agree - staying grounded in reality is certainly part of it. And how exactly one positions oneself to this reality shouldn't matter, the Work can be done irregardless.

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I finally had the chance to re think what I was going to say, :). People have different wordings on their goals in achieving through the Western Left Hand Path. But they are about the same commonality you might say, as my previous comments mentioned, hence those who have different wordings are achieving the same thing on the path "Becoming more than Human."

(might seem like a repetition but that was where my thoughts went to)
I think I get what you're saying. Not sure whether you truly have to aim for superhumanity to be on the LHP, but that notion of seeing value in trying to evolve over one's limits is certainly fairly central to it.