Forum => General LHP Discussion => Vampyrism => Topic started by: W_Adam_Smythe on October 15, 2019, 02:44:42 am

Title: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: W_Adam_Smythe on October 15, 2019, 02:44:42 am
From a Church of Satan Grotto Master's handbook. A definition worth considering as we study Vampyres:
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Deidre on October 15, 2019, 04:22:41 am
I've been fascinated by vampire 'lore for a while, but I've never heard the concepts of magic, Satan and vampires all brought up together like this. I'll have to think on this. Hmm.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: W_Adam_Smythe on October 17, 2019, 11:11:07 am
One other thing along these lines to take into consideration is look at how many human beings have fed these ancient deities for centuries with heartfelt, emotional, and yes at times bloody belief. ;) 
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Hapu on October 18, 2019, 09:51:15 am
Satan feeding off my energy is not an image I relish.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Etu Malku on October 18, 2019, 10:08:02 am
I would tend to disagree that Satan is a vampire. I understand the connection to others connecting through you when you lead a ritual, in a way they can be understood as vampiric, but I don't get the Satan as vampire part.

LaVey mentioned 'psychic vampires' as those who drained your energy by being a pain in the ass and needy all the time. This certainly does not fit the vampire definition we hold these days, and it doesn't match up with the Grotto letter's association between Satan and vampires.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: W_Adam_Smythe on October 20, 2019, 08:14:08 am
As a general response:

This indeed is a passage from a Church of Satan Grotto Masters handbook.

Perhaps this is where (and I mean absolutely no offense) those who play spook show dress up while remaining faithful atheists miss the mark.

All of these deities, symbols, names, etc have been used for centuries because they work.

Whether or not you believe that the Devil exists or not, every time that you hold a ritual using His images, His names, His symbols, you are in effect feeding Him.  Think of how many have offered up their own energies similarly but with the belief that He is very real. You are raising up your own energy to add to that so you're belief/disbelief is irrelevant.

In this sense every deity does in fact have Vampiric nature. So to have all of their religions. They have enslaved human beings while feeding off of the energy raised and yes even the blood that has been shed in their name. Because of the length of time (centuries) that this has went on it is why their names, images, statues, symbols, all have power about them.

In the late 80's there was a punk fiction by J.G. Eccarius called The Last Days Of Christ The Vampire that played with some of the more shallow elements of this deeper theme. It could have just as easily been subtitled Jesus Lives Vampires Never Die.


While TSB did have an essay on psychic Vampires, this was a type of human being that LaVey was speaking about. The CoS did indeed still do lectures on topics such as Vampires and for those who have read Michael Aquino's CoS book there was even a ceremonial ritual called The Rite of The Undead that was written by Dale Seago who, at the time, held the title of Priest in the CoS.

 
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Km Anu on October 20, 2019, 12:12:55 pm
As a general response:

This indeed is a passage from a Church of Satan Grotto Masters handbook.

Perhaps this is where (and I mean absolutely no offense) those who play spook show dress up while remaining faithful atheists miss the mark.

All of these deities, symbols, names, etc have been used for centuries because they work.

Whether or not you believe that the Devil exists or not, every time that you hold a ritual using His images, His names, His symbols, you are in effect feeding Him.  Think of how many have offered up their own energies similarly but with the belief that He is very real. You are raising up your own energy to add to that so you're belief/disbelief is irrelevant.

In this sense every deity does in fact have Vampiric nature. So to have all of their religions. They have enslaved human beings while feeding off of the energy raised and yes even the blood that has been shed in their name. Because of the length of time (centuries) that this has went on it is why their names, images, statues, symbols, all have power about them.

In the late 80's there was a punk fiction by J.G. Eccarius called The Last Days Of Christ The Vampire that played with some of the more shallow elements of this deeper theme. It could have just as easily been subtitled Jesus Lives Vampires Never Die.


While TSB did have an essay on psychic Vampires, this was a type of human being that LaVey was speaking about. The CoS did indeed still do lectures on topics such as Vampires and for those who have read Michael Aquino's CoS book there was even a ceremonial ritual called The Rite of The Undead that was written by Dale Seago who, at the time, held the title of Priest in the CoS.

My understanding is that these beings are composed of thought. Not so much a physical force, but a re-emerging manifestation of influence, concious because of us. Because we are concious. Thinking because we think. Acting because we act. It it's a force without a body, feeding on our beleif in it and our inability to not contemplate that beleif.

In channeling a force, we specify the form it takes. In channeling a God of conflict, will, and storms, psychodrama prepares me for a specific real life conflict. In overcoming the horror or that ritualistic psychodrama, the aspects of that entity engauge in a symbiotic contract. I give strength to its image and in turn it inspires my actions.

By becoming aware of the operations of these beings, regardless of what they are (and as presented above they may be specters, demons, gods, egregores, servitors, jungian archetypes,  symbolic associations of aspects of the psyche, w/e) we gain a great measure of control over these things, using their symbolism to compound our will before an event in the working of an operative ritual, or inspire an event in the context of an illustrative ritual.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Liu on October 20, 2019, 04:47:28 pm
While I  agree that it can be an enjoyable notion that one's deity is feeding on one, I'd rather consider it a more symbiotic relationship.

Sure we are giving our energy to the devil by doing what we feel to be in line with its will and by devoting ourselves to it. But we are doing that not (only) because it would compel us but also because doing so benefits us as well, in some way or another.

Or what are you doing for your deity that you don't derive any benefit from?

In more traditional religions it seems a bit more common to serve one's deity without getting much back, but even there it likely depends on the person in question whether they have a symbiotic or abusive relationship.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: W_Adam_Smythe on October 20, 2019, 06:32:58 pm
@Km Anu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=413) Much of this is indeed related to thoughtform Magic. In that you are feeding the form with belief and that allows it to take on a life.

@Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) Quite correct it is a symbiotic relationship. In fact, that is exactly what it states in the Grotto Master's Handbook: Satan himself is a Vampire who will reward you only as long as you feed him.

That is the give/take.

Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Etu Malku on October 20, 2019, 09:47:28 pm
An archetype is a Platonic First Form and Satan is related to the devil or trickster archetype. Not until recently has Satan taken on his new 'positive' form, as he has usually been portrayed as something essentially destructive in nature. Thoughtforms are not archetypes, a thoughtform is a manifestation/extension of one's consciousness or more likely a group or even global consciousness. There has not been any objective manifestation of Satan as far I know of.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: W_Adam_Smythe on October 20, 2019, 11:21:19 pm
Satan is related to the devil or trickster archetype. There has not been any objective manifestation of Satan as far I know of.

Actually, just as Christ is a title and not Jesus's last name, so to is Satan a title.







An archetype is a Platonic First Form and Satan is related to the devil or trickster archetype. Not until recently has Satan taken on his new 'positive' form, as he has usually been portrayed as something essentially destructive in nature.

Says who? That is entirely dependent on you're perspective. For instance, I see enlightenment of man as a very positive thing. I also see nothing wrong with indulgence or making improvements.



Thoughtforms are not archetypes, a thoughtform is a manifestation/extension of one's consciousness or more likely a group or even global consciousness.

Largely Magic is mindstuff.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Km Anu on October 20, 2019, 11:36:39 pm
An archetype is a Platonic First Form and Satan is related to the devil or trickster archetype. Not until recently has Satan taken on his new 'positive' form, as he has usually been portrayed as something essentially destructive in nature. Thoughtforms are not archetypes, a thoughtform is a manifestation/extension of one's consciousness or more likely a group or even global consciousness. There has not been any objective manifestation of Satan as far I know of.

It becomes an archetype when the person gives it that form. It must be channeled using whatever modality the practitioner can most easily consider.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Etu Malku on October 21, 2019, 10:09:45 am
Satan is related to the devil or trickster archetype. There has not been any objective manifestation of Satan as far I know of.

Actually, just as Christ is a title and not Jesus's last name, so to is Satan a title.







An archetype is a Platonic First Form and Satan is related to the devil or trickster archetype. Not until recently has Satan taken on his new 'positive' form, as he has usually been portrayed as something essentially destructive in nature.

Says who?
Jung and the majority of psychology.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Etu Malku on October 21, 2019, 10:11:14 am
An archetype is a Platonic First Form and Satan is related to the devil or trickster archetype. Not until recently has Satan taken on his new 'positive' form, as he has usually been portrayed as something essentially destructive in nature. Thoughtforms are not archetypes, a thoughtform is a manifestation/extension of one's consciousness or more likely a group or even global consciousness. There has not been any objective manifestation of Satan as far I know of.

It becomes an archetype when the person gives it that form. It must be channeled using whatever modality the practitioner can most easily consider.
An archetype/first form exists regardless of whether we acknowledge it or not.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: W_Adam_Smythe on October 21, 2019, 11:33:14 am
Again, this is from the subjective perspective of the sources you are citing in as much as the Grotto Master's Handbook reference is subjective to it's author.

Likewise, an Archetype has also been fed.  ;)

Rather than digress, let's swing this topic back around to it's op and your initial objection:

Quote
I would tend to disagree that Satan is a vampire. I understand the connection to others connecting through you when you lead a ritual, in a way they can be understood as vampiric, but I don't get the Satan as vampire part.

You would have to sort out your own disagreement there. The concept of Satan as a Vampyre has also been explained in other responses.


Quote
LaVey mentioned 'psychic vampires' as those who drained your energy by being a pain in the *** and needy all the time. This certainly does not fit the vampire definition we hold these days, and it doesn't match up with the Grotto letter's ***ociation between Satan and vampires.


Even here.

In the particular essay that you mention Anton LaVey himself offers a subjective perspective of Vampyres. However, I do strongly encourage you to read page 140 (or depending on the copy that you have, the last couple of pages of the chapter entitled "Life at the Edge of the World") of Blanche Barton's The Secret Life of a Satanist.

You will see that in that he offers a different (what some may even say contradictory to his essay in TSB) perspective on Vampyres.

Likewise, it was also pointed out in another post with references that the CoS did indeed have different perspectives on Vampyres other than the one essay that you cite in TSB.

I do hope that this information has been of use to you.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Hapu on October 21, 2019, 12:26:27 pm
As a general response:

This indeed is a passage from a Church of Satan Grotto Masters handbook.

Perhaps this is where (and I mean absolutely no offense) those who play spook show dress up while remaining faithful atheists miss the mark.

For strict atheists, greater workings are psychodrama aimed at catharsis. I've never been in that category but I get it.

All of these deities, symbols, names, etc have been used for centuries because they work.

Whether or not you believe that the Devil exists or not, every time that you hold a ritual using His images, His names, His symbols, you are in effect feeding Him.  Think of how many have offered up their own energies similarly but with the belief that He is very real. You are raising up your own energy to add to that so you're belief/disbelief is irrelevant.

Feeding the Devil with the energies of one's own body is by no means a universal practice. To assess the rationality of this practice, I'd need to better understand the cost/benefit analysis. What am I really losing and what do I really stand to gain?

In this sense every deity does in fact have Vampiric nature. So to have all of their religions. They have enslaved human beings while feeding off of the energy raised and yes even the blood that has been shed in their name. Because of the length of time (centuries) that this has went on it is why their names, images, statues, symbols, all have power about them.

Dedicating the war-dead to a war-demon is very different from letting some demon feed off my energy, because the war-dead aren't me, they're someone else. Or if it turns out I'm one of them, I won't care.

Dedicating the state-executed criminal dead to some demon of law or death is likewise offering someone else, not me.

It's offering me that I have a problem with.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Km Anu on October 21, 2019, 01:40:01 pm
An archetype is a Platonic First Form and Satan is related to the devil or trickster archetype. Not until recently has Satan taken on his new 'positive' form, as he has usually been portrayed as something essentially destructive in nature. Thoughtforms are not archetypes, a thoughtform is a manifestation/extension of one's consciousness or more likely a group or even global consciousness. There has not been any objective manifestation of Satan as far I know of.

It becomes an archetype when the person gives it that form. It must be channeled using whatever modality the practitioner can most easily consider.
An archetype/first form exists regardless of whether we acknowledge it or not.

 :facepalm: I know, I'm agreeing. But it doesnt have to be called that to be used like one. Someone gets the same benifit from externalizing their anger as a war God archetype that they would worshiping the archetype as a theistic being. The faith in the externalization still compounds the will for people that strive to grow from their system.


Likewise, it was also pointed out in another post with references that the CoS did indeed have different perspectives on Vampyres other than the one essay that you cite in TSB.

I do hope that this information has been of use to you.

It's just a good metaphore for beings that require negative karma. Or emotional currency. A metaphore that is sometimes stretched unnecessarily beyond its usefulness to fit a specific aesthetic imo.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: W_Adam_Smythe on October 21, 2019, 09:34:00 pm
Feeding the Devil with the energies of one's own body is by no means a universal practice. To assess the rationality of this practice, I'd need to better understand the cost/benefit analysis. What am I really losing and what do I really stand to gain?

My point here is one of believe it or not. If you are raising energy (using your own life-force, will, etc) for the Prince of Darkness (or for that matter any other deity) you are indeed feeding Him whether you believe that He is a sentient being or a metaphor only.

Of course, belief only strengthens that bond. However, even the atheistic LaVeyan's will tell you that during a ritual you are to suspend disbelief. ;)  What they never follow that one through with is that when they do safely turn back to their "safe" state of disbelief is that disbelief is a belief..

This is why it is always best to thoroughly research exactly what it is that you are invoking, using, etc. rather than to just assume that you are putting on a spooky show that will shock your friends and parents.

From Dr. Aquino's Satanic Bible page 201 section 7 Sekhem:

Quote
Activation of the sekhem has another effect: every incident infuses the Initiate with more of the neter invoked, to the cumulative degree that the Initiate's personality becomes accented by the neter's: seeing as the neter sees, speaking as that neter would speak, acting as that neter would act. Hence it is the sekhem which makes possible, and ultimately consecrates the priesthood of a neter in the individual so aligned. Once this transformation has taken place, it cannot be undone; at most it may be sublimated or repressed, but only at great cost to the priest's or priestess' very sanity."


I also would offer the commentary from Nikolas Schreck and Zeena from the point that I have the video queued at to the 14:19 minute mark:

https://youtu.be/SEu1pXKEL8M?t=766

Dedicating the war-dead to a war-demon is very different from letting some demon feed off my energy, because the war-dead aren't me, they're someone else. Or if it turns out I'm one of them, I won't care.

Dedicating the state-executed criminal dead to some demon of law or death is likewise offering someone else, not me.

It's offering me that I have a problem with.

Are you then saying you are bargain shopping for something that you take seriously?

Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: W_Adam_Smythe on October 21, 2019, 09:45:12 pm
It's just a good metaphore for beings that require negative karma. Or emotional currency. A metaphore that is sometimes stretched unnecessarily beyond its usefulness to fit a specific aesthetic imo.

I fully agree to use something that is useful to you.

As far as positive or negative, what is given or what is received is largely based in the eye of the beholder so to speak.

Since this post has been largely from a LaVey/CoS view point, lets for a moment turn to the Temple of Set and their own Order of the Vampyre.

From the Ruby Tablet of Set with regards to the OV:

Quote
The vampyre however nourishes its lifesource on its own terms. It is self-motivated, and takes what it needs from where it pleases,and is beholden to none. Self does not feed the Gods as a Setian.

This is the cornerstone of the heart of Vampyrism IMO.

As living Vampyres, we aspire to become exactly as those other deities have. Any lifeforce that we then would offer up would be in exchange for the guidance of those who have already put it in practice and have mastered it. 
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Km Anu on October 21, 2019, 09:54:59 pm
Quote
This is the cornerstone of the heart of Vampyrism IMO.

As living Vampyres, we aspire to become exactly as those other deities have. Any lifeforce that we then would offer up would be in exchange for the guidance of those who have already put it in practice and have mastered it.

I Like this. I would only add that there's a number of neteru held within my psyche, and I strive for traits of them. The usefulness of the externalization is the ability to pick and choose what traits you want and when you want them. I take exercise of this practice to be greater than the power of a Neter. The practitioner has a mind-body capable of holding conciousness and would be almost MORE vampiric than the Neteru or non-neter, feeding on their power freely while controlling how much of the self us given in return.

The metaphor is similar to a classic contract with the devil,  but unique in that the magician always sets the terms of the contract.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: W_Adam_Smythe on October 21, 2019, 10:05:45 pm
Quote
This is the cornerstone of the heart of Vampyrism IMO.

As living Vampyres, we aspire to become exactly as those other deities have. Any lifeforce that we then would offer up would be in exchange for the guidance of those who have already put it in practice and have mastered it.

I Like this. I would only add that there's a number of neteru held within my psyche, and I strive for traits of them. The usefulness of the externalization is the ability to pick and choose what traits you want and when you want them. I take exercise of this practice to be greater than the power of a Neter. The practitioner has a mind-body capable of holding conciousness and would be almost MORE vampiric than the Neteru or non-neter, feeding on their power freely while controlling how much of the self us given in return.

Oh absolutely agreed completely. The only thing I would add is that with everything being a give/take as with any dealing the more you give the more you get. (That would also be in "normal world" circumstances as well. What I am saying here is say that you undertook a martial art but you only attended half of the classes. It may be enough to get you by, but there is also the understanding that you could have so much more if you committed to the entire course.)

That said, as you say it is pick and choose and that should always be based on what is most useful to you.

The metaphor is similar to a classic contract with the devil,  but unique in that the magician always sets the terms of the contract.

Now, I really REALLY like that! :)  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Hapu on October 22, 2019, 10:32:49 am
:facepalm: I know, I'm agreeing. But it doesnt have to be called that to be used like one. Someone gets the same benifit from externalizing their anger as a war God archetype that they would worshiping the archetype as a theistic being. The faith in the externalization still compounds the will for people that strive to grow from their system.

Wm_Adam_Smythe says the game is fundamentally different if the war god actualy exists as a theistic beign, with its own independent awareness. will, and destiny. In that scenario, the war God take what it wants or needs from the practictioner, permission or not, mortal ignorance or not, contract or not, protection or not. Nothing stands between the practitioner and the entity's vampirism except the practitiioner's decision not to engage at all.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Km Anu on October 22, 2019, 01:30:51 pm
Wm_Adam_Smythe says the game is fundamentally different if the war god actualy exists as a theistic beign, with its own independent awareness. Will and destiny. In that scenario the war God takes what it wants or needs from the practictioner, permission or not, mortal ignorance or not, contract or not, protection or not. Nothing stands between the practitioner and the entity's vampirism except the practitiioner's decision not to engage at all.

My reply was aimed at Etu's reply, but I have some stuff I could add.

Theistic worship of an entity such as the above described practice appears to take belief as a pre-requisite. If the practitioner's system allows for controls in which the practitioner holds equal belief (or faith in their effectiveness) then control should still be attainable, just in a way that is really hard to prove to someone else.

Both theistic and atheistic examination of Vampyric traits place importance on control of the relationship. I find it interesting that compounding will (believing that you can so that you can which makes you believe you can more so you can more) is the primary modality of control. I find it equally interesting that this "Energy," just may be will itself. The method of control becomes the food source.

It fits nicely with the theme, like a glove really. A Hollywood vampire could be controlled via its food source (like how Sookie controls Bill in TrueBlood) and this archetype is no different.

By maintaining this control....Well the practitioner seems like more of a Vampyre for Sekhem than the practitioner, Holy crap. He has boundless power that builds itself and gives it to lesser beings (Those without physical bodies) in exchange for what Sekhem they have. Mind you this power is limited, and can only be gained through human beings. I'm thinking The Master in the strain controlling Palmer with his White. He dishes out his boundless power in drops, promising to convert him someday into a Strigoi, stringing him along for most of the show. I know its a little abstract, but its a fun flip to consider.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Liu on October 26, 2019, 05:13:26 pm
@Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) Quite correct it is a symbiotic relationship. In fact, that is exactly what it states in the Grotto Master's Handbook: Satan himself is a Vampire who will reward you only as long as you feed him.

That is the give/take.
Then the choice of the term vampire doesn't make much sense to me.
To me, a deity is vampiric if you don't get much out of your relationship with them.

That you have to put something into a relationship is nothing special.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Km Anu on October 30, 2019, 05:41:14 am
@Liu (http://orderoftheserpent.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) Quite correct it is a symbiotic relationship. In fact, that is exactly what it states in the Grotto Master's Handbook: Satan himself is a Vampire who will reward you only as long as you feed him.

That is the give/take.

Satan is a symbiote :)

Does that make YHWH a parasite?
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Liu on October 30, 2019, 07:19:45 pm
Satan is a symbiote :)

Does that make YHWH a parasite?
Well that's pretty much what I said in my previous post here.
Title: Re: Satan Is A Vampire
Post by: Onyx on November 02, 2019, 04:08:36 pm
Quote from: TSB
Most Satanists do not accept Satan as an anthropomorphic being with cloven hooves, a barbed tail, and horns. He merely represents a force in nature - the powers of darkness which have been named just that because no religion has taken these forces out of the darkness. Nor has science been able to apply technical terminology to this force. It is an untapped reservoir that few can make use of because they lack the ability use a tool without having to first break down and label all the parts which make it run. It is this incessant need to analyze which prohibits most people from taking advantage of this many faceted key to the unknown - which the Satanist chooses to call "Satan."

Given this symbolic definition, it's difficult for me to reconcile Satan as a vampire. "They are vampires; they feed off of you" makes sense ritualistically, but this part is confusing indeed:

Quote
Satan himself is a vampire who will reward you only as long as you feed him.

In my mind, "Satan as Vampire" only makes sense for the more extreme Satanisms which are into blood and other forms of sacrifice to a literal Satan.